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What do you think Meow Meow

The Emperor had 21 sons.

I think that one was omogon

Not really. He seemed fully conscious of his decisions and even reasoned validation for his actions as well as later, at the end, fully accepting his fare with complete memory of who and what he is. He's got one personality, just don't be a criminal that he finds out about.

Not an expect on metal health in any way but he didn't seem to have a true split personality. To me, borderline personality disorder fits more. He had a very black and white view of the world, something that is probably tied in with his ability as a pre cog. He's probably tied with Magnus as the most tragic primarch to fall. He essentially wanted to do it all alone, which meant when ever he wasn't around personally everything he cared about turned to crap.

Konradleijon wrote:
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What do you think Meow Meow

No, he didn't. The night haunter is the name Nostramo gave him. He is actually more sane than people think. He is how the Emperor made him. He tortured and kill the inhabitants of Nostramo as it was in his nature, before he had even grown, Sevatar even remarked on it, saying that he failed with Nostramo seeing that as soon as he left pretty much they went back to their own ways of crime, and when Cruze said that the only way to teach them was by making examples of them Sevatar said to Cruze that he never even tried another way. Cruze was sane enough to reflect, he knew what he was and he hated himself for it, even when he turned to Horus' side. He always was a sadist.

He was portrayed that way in Lord of the Night; conflicting visions and beliefs having driven him to insanity. He beliefs one thing in one scene, then the opposite later on. The Night Lords trilogy and heresy stories don't seem to have taken quite the same approach, showing more his temperament as a consequence of the knowledge he has of the future.

I'm not sure that I agree that the Emperor intended him to be a torturer and sadist, rather than Him being willing to use those qualities after finding him. That seems more to be a reflection of the environment he was raised in, rather than a genetic predisposition.

Personally, with all due respect to ADB, I still think Lord of the Night is one of the best 40k books ever written, and definitely the better take on Curze.

 JamesY wrote:
He was portrayed that way in Lord of the Night; conflicting visions and beliefs having driven him to insanity. He beliefs one thing in one scene, then the opposite later on. The Night Lords trilogy and heresy stories don't seem to have taken quite the same approach, showing more his temperament as a consequence of the knowledge he has of the future.

I'm not sure that I agree that the Emperor intended him to be a torturer and sadist, rather than Him being willing to use those qualities after finding him. That seems more to be a reflection of the environment he was raised in, rather than a genetic predisposition.

Personally, with all due respect to ADB, I still think Lord of the Night is one of the best 40k books ever written, and definitely the better take on Curze.

Thing about this is that he started killing and torturing from the get go. I don't think the world had influenced him. He also didn't have to enjoy it if he was doing it for a purpose.

Someone can do something for a purpose and still enjoy it

@DC he grew up in an environment where that was the only way people dealt with each other, and where murder and death was the only action that had any impact. He had watched the people around him and realised this before committing to a course of action. He is similar to Angron in that the world he landed on ruined him before he had a chance. We can never know what either would have been like if they had landed in more nurturing territory, like Guilliman or Dorn.

 JamesY wrote:
@DC he grew up in an environment where that was the only way people dealt with each other, and where murder and death was the only action that had any impact. He had watched the people around him and realised this before committing to a course of action. He is similar to Angron in that the world he landed on ruined him before he had a chance. We can never know what either would have been like if they had landed in more nurturing territory, like Guilliman or Dorn.

He started killing and torturing within a very short period of time, he lived off eating dogs, he was never actually wronged even as a child, they couldn't catch him. He thought to bring order he'd need to make a message. It was a conscious decision to torture etc. It was his first thought and never gave any other thought to bringing law to the planet. He knew this, when Sevatar pointed it out. The 8th were designed for terror tactics. Even after the HH Kruze lamented what his legion became and what he became, but he couldn't change his nature, which was why he was suicidal. That's why I think he refused daemonhood, he never really cared about chaos in my opinion, Horus' way just let him be what he was made. Thats how I see him.



"Sevatar almost laughed. ‘Sire, you are no different. The Legion is disorderly and vile because it is
cast in your image.’
‘No.’ Curze drenched the single syllable in regret. ‘No, you don’t understand. I’ve never claimed to
be perfect, Sevatar. But I became the sinner, the monster, the Night Haunter, so my people would never
have to. And look at the result. Look at the recruits from Nostramo, less than a decade after I departed.
Look at the filth they sent me. Look at the disgusting dregs of humanity my own Apothecaries infused
with my genetic material and reforged into transhumans. The Eighth is poisoned, Sev. Generations of
men who are murderers in my image, yet devoid of my conviction. They are killers and abusers
because they want to be, not because someone had to be.’
‘The end result is the same,’ said Sevatar. ‘Fear is the weapon.’
‘Fear is supposed to be the means to the end. Look at the bloodshed my Legion has wrought these
last years, even before the Crusade was done. Fear became the end itself. It was all they desired. They
fed on it. My sons were strong" so they bled the weak for their own amusement. Tell me, captain,
where the nobility is in that.’
‘Where is the nobility in any of this?’ Sevatar gestured to the streets of Nostramo Quintus around
them. ‘You can claim a savage nobility, father, but this is far more savage than noble.’
Curze’s pale lips peeled back from his filed teeth. ‘There was no other way.’
‘No?’ Sevatar answered his father’s snarl with a grin. ‘What other ways did you try?’
‘Sevatar…’
‘Answer me, father. What politics of peace did you teach? What scientific and social illumination
did you bring to this society? In your quest for a human utopia, what other ways did you try beyond
eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive?’
‘It. Was. The. Only. Way.’
Sevatar laughed again. ‘The only way to do what? The only way to bring a population to heel? How
then did the other primarchs manage it? How has world upon world managed it, with resorting to
butchering children and broadcasting their screams across the planetary vox-net?’
‘Their worlds were never as… as serene as mine was.’
‘And the serenity of yours died the first second your back was turned. So tell me again how you
succeeded. Tell me again how this all worked perfectly.’
Curze was on him in the time it took to blink. The primarch’s hand wrapped his throat, lifting him
from the ground, stealing his breath.
‘You overstep your bounds, First Captain.’
‘How can you lie to me like this?’ Sevatar’s voice was a strangled growl. ‘How can you lie to
yourself? I stand here, inside your mind, witnessing a theatre of your own memories. Your way is the
Eighth Legion way, now. But it has never been the only way. Just the easiest way.’
Curze tightened his grip. ‘You lie.’
Sevatar narrowed his eyes, his last breath escaping as Curze squeezed. ‘You enjoyed this way,’ the
captain hissed. ‘You came to love it… just as we all did. The power… The righteousness…’
Curze released him. Sevatar crashed to the ground, his armour joints snarling as his ceramite
scraped the rockcrete.
‘Son of a…’ he trailed off, catching his breath.
‘The son of a god,’ Curze said softly. ‘Get up, Sevatar. Leave me be.’
The First Captain rose to his feet, his vision blurred. ‘I am going nowhere, sire. Not without you.’
Curze smiled. His son could see that much, at least. ‘I admire your tenacity. I always have. But you
are a shadow of what I am, Sevatar. You cannot match me. Go.’
‘N–’

Nothing in that supports your point that he became murdered and tortured immediately. If anything, "But I became the sinner" suggests that it took time. There is also nothing to suggest that Daemonhood was ever on offer to him, he never followed any chaos god, and was never aligned to one. You haven't interpreted him that way, he has been clearly presented as never having been interested in following chaos. Also, his suicidal tendencies were down to knowing that he would eventually be killed for his actions, despite only doing what he believed he was created to do. Again, there is absolutely no way of knowing if he would have been completely different if he'd landed elsewhere. Maybe he'd have been exactly the same, maybe he'd have been the one to kill Horus before the Emperor needed to fight him, as Sanguinis failed to do. We'll never know.

 JamesY wrote:
Nothing in that supports your point that he became murdered and tortured immediately. If anything, "But I became the sinner" suggests that it took time. There is also nothing to suggest that Daemonhood was ever on offer to him, he never followed any chaos god, and was never aligned to one. You haven't interpreted him that way, he has been clearly presented as never having been interested in following chaos. Also, his suicidal tendencies were down to knowing that he would eventually be killed for his actions, despite only doing what he believed he was created to do. Again, there is absolutely no way of knowing if he would have been completely different if he'd landed elsewhere. Maybe he'd have been exactly the same, maybe he'd have been the one to kill Horus before the Emperor needed to fight him, as Sanguinis failed to do. We'll never know.

It was soon, he was just a young man when he started his killing. He lived in solitude in the city until he started killing, he never suffered the world; he only suffered, in trying to feed himself. He only observed all the cruelties of the world. Daemonhood was on the offer its been hinted at in novels, but of course the Gods are going to offer him daemonhood, why wouldn't they, they'd want to keep him. Interpreted is exactly what I've done, you just don't agree with my Interpretation, I already said this was my opinion.

"Was this what it was to be a primarch? To laugh at wounds that would destroy even an Astartes?
To feel war as an amusing diversion, while crushing a million enemies under the might of
invincible armies?
Perhaps this was what the Night Haunter had felt. This exaltation. Blood-slick claws tore fresh
rents in his cheek as he scratched himself, laughing at the delicious pain. Pain itself became a joke
to those who could never die.
‘Prince Talos,’ his troops were shouting up at him. ‘Prince Talos.’
No, not shouting. Worshipping. They bowed and cried and prayed for his attention.
This…
‘…is wrong,’ Talos growled. ‘The Night Haunter was never exalted above us as a perfect, immortal
being. He was moribund and cursed, stronger for all the trials and agonies he endured.
‘This,’ he finished, turning from Slaa Neth, ‘is not how he lived. It is not how I will live, either.’
‘Cyrion,’ the figure smiled. Talos hadn’t ever smiled like that in his life.
‘What of him?’ the Astartes narrowed his black eyes, instinctively reaching for weapons that
weren’t there.
‘His soul has felt my caress. Your brother hears the fears of every living thing. My gift to him.’
‘He resists.’
‘On the surface, he resists. The parts of his mind that shout silently relish the sounds of weeping
souls. He feeds on fear. He enjoys what he senses.’
‘You are lying,’ Talos said, but his broken conviction was evident in the growl. ‘Begone.’"

" he has been clearly presented as never having been interested in following chaos." - so you agree with me.

"Also, his suicidal tendencies were down to knowing that he would eventually be killed for his actions, despite only doing what he believed he was created to do. Again, there is absolutely no way of knowing if he would have been completely different if he'd landed elsewhere. Maybe he'd have been exactly the same, maybe he'd have been the one to kill Horus before the Emperor needed to fight him, as Sanguinis failed to do. " - Its obviously one of the reasons, but its a part his suicidal tenancies and also because of his regret in my opinion etc.

Kruze didn't always want to die, so I doubt its only because of the dreams, it is more clear that he regretted what he was, than fearing his dream as he called death on:

"‘Come on…’ Curze’s eyes were pleading, and I realised he wanted this. Ever since Kharaatan, he
had wanted this. Not every chink of weakness I had seen in this place was feigned. Curze truly did
loathe himself, so much so that he wanted it to end. If I killed him he would have everything he
wanted, death and a means of bringing me down to his despicable level.
‘I am damned, Vulkan…’ he gasped. ‘End it now!’
The abyss was pulsing at the edge of thought, black and red, the monster crawling up from its
depths to claim me. So many dead, I could almost hear the corpses willing me to do it, to avenge
them. And then I saw Ferrus, his proud and noble face looking down upon me, the beloved older brother.
‘Do it…’ Curze was urging. ‘I will only kill again, take another for my amusement. Corax, Dorn,
Guilliman… Perhaps I’ll bait the Lion when we reach Thramas. You can’t risk letting me live.’
I released him, and he fell clutching at his throat, choking the air back into his lungs. From beneath
the lank strands of his hair, he glared at me, eyes filled with murderous intent. I had scorned him;
worst of all I had let him live when I had every reason not to, and proved that he was alone in his
depravity."

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