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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/05/theft-and-vandalism-drive-mobike-out-of-manchester]Theft and vandalism drive Mobike out of Manchester

I've been following this story reported by Helen Pidd since the spring, when Mobike came to Manchester.

The only thing I can say is, please, for goodness' sake don't redeploy your crappy bikes to Oxford. They have already become a plague and a menace, blocking bike paths and bike stands.

A fellow biker I met a couple of days ago on a blocked bike path (National Route 5 -- the bike equivalent of a motorway) described them as a scourge on our neighbourhood.

A colleague who used one while her bike was in the repair shops, came back fuming and said it was the worst bike she had ever ridden. Helen Pidd criticised them as being too small for anyone over 5 feet 8.

I'm not against bike sharing schemes. I used OxonBike for several months when I started working here, before I bought my own bike. OxonBike has now been driven out of business by Mobike.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Dockless bikes are a pain. Just take a look at the numbers around the station.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






 Steve steveson wrote:
Dockless bikes are a pain. Just take a look at the numbers around the station.

Oh, you must have never been to the Netherlands:

That is a two-story bicycle dock, with two massive underground bicycle docks nearby, and there are still too many bicycles to fit in.

If bicycles become so numerous they start blocking paths and such, the problem is not with the bicycles but with local governments who do not provide enough bicycle docks.
Those Mobike bikes are a really bad design by the way. It needs to be bigger and sturdier, and have a lot more space to carry stuff. There is not even a luggage rack on the back.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/05 13:38:10


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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It's true, there aren't enough bike docks in Oxford, especially in some popular places where people want to go and leave their bike safely, like at the station.

The problem with Mobike is people are leaving them anywhere, including blocking pavements and cycle paths.

This is more a matter of social behaviour than bike docks, because the rider doesn't feel ownership of a Mobike, and because Mobike have added hundreds of extra bikes to the city's streets than there were six months ago.

Some bike parks in Japan are so large, although they are very neat and safe, that many people carry a folding bike on their road bike, so they can cycle from where they leave it to the station.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh, you must have never been to the Netherlands:

We got to visit the Netherlands, and that was one of the things that stood out the most to us! Just bikes sitting unlocked everywhere . It was so cool...

Unfortunately if I did that here, I soon wouldn't have a bike
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

They were introduced to Stockport earlier this year.

And switfly removed again 3 days later, for much the same vandalism and ASB-related reasons. There seems to be a general unwillingness from the company to actually do anything about it, instead reyling on a very 'hands-off (our bikes)' approach centred around waiting for it to stop, or pulling out if it doesn't.

This doesn't feel like the "learning experience" the company claims, so much as an experience of a company throwing its bikes out of the shed after their brave attempts to fight this abuse by performing a combination of feth all and sweet f.a. proved ultimately unsuccessful.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Iron_Captain wrote:

If bicycles become so numerous they start blocking paths and such, the problem is not with the bicycles but with local governments


No. The local government isn't ditching bikes all over the place. If I set up a used crisp packet subscription service (for people who love to crinkle packets as they walk), then started ditching them all over the pavements; I'd still get done for littering. It's the same if subscription cars start getting abandoned on double yellow lines or builders leaving skips on walkways. They're the companies property, and it's been abandoned.

So chuck them in the skip, let the company have the removal bill, and fine them more generally if it keeps happening.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/05 16:28:50



 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





I’m assuming he is talking about lack of spaces for bikes in general, which is an issue anywhere with a large number of bikes. Oxford is full of abandoned bikes as well as dockless bikes and lacks enough space for legitimate bike parking. I’m fortunate in that I have secure bike parking at work, but if I didn’t I’d have nowhere to put my bike (and probably no bike pretty soon in Oxford).

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in nl
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor




@RiTides: if you did that in the Netherlands with anything better than an old brick for a bike, you wouldn't have one hete either. Newer bikes, even locked one, get stolen quite a lot.
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Bran Dawri wrote:
@RiTides: if you did that in the Netherlands with anything better than an old brick for a bike, you wouldn't have one hete either. Newer bikes, even locked one, get stolen quite a lot.

It depends on whether you live in a village or small town or a city though. In more rural areas you can easily leave a bike unlocked since the chance of it getting stolen remains low. In a city it is a different. I have had 2 bikes stolen (one in the first week I moved to this city), and a third was almost 'stolen' by the local government when I left it in front of the university building for the weekend. I was coincidentally just in time to jump in the big dumpster and retrieve my bike before it was carried off with all the other bikes. Groningen is very notorious for bike theft though, so with only having lost 2 bikes so far I am really lucky (and careful). Most of my friends have lost more.
Then again, having your bike stolen here is usually more of an annoyance than a real problem, considering most people here ride bikes that are at least 30 years old and have little value beyond that of the rusty metal they are made of. Those rarely get stolen even if unlocked. And if your bike gets stolen, you can get a new (undoubtedly stolen) one from the local shady bike dealer for like 10 euros. And presumably legal second hand (or rather fifth hand or something like that) bikes aren't much more expensive on online market places. Or you can get 'repossessed' bikes from the local government, which they fix up with new locks and lights etc. and then sell relatively cheap. That would have been the fate of my bike as well if I had not gotten it out of their dumpster in time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/06 15:10:10


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Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Preventing bike theft is like running away from bears. You can't outrun the bear, so you just have to outrun your pals.

In the same way, it's impossible to prevent your bike being stolen by a really determined thief. You have to make it less attractive than other bikes nearby.

I do that by riding a massive reconditioned Royal Mail delivery bike, and lock it with two heavy Kryptonite locks, and taking the seatpost with me.



One of these but resprayed green.

If someone wants to spend 10 minutes cutting the locks and ride away without a saddle on a bike weighing 25Kg they're an idiot.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

I now imagine KK as the Mr Bean of bikes

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Kilkrazy wrote:
If someone wants to spend 10 minutes cutting the locks and ride away without a saddle on a bike weighing 25Kg they're an idiot.


You'd be surprised at how many bike thieves (and other small-time crooks) are idiots. My local bikes-for-drugs guy would probably just see the heavy-duty locks and decide a bike locked with such has to be valuable. Not that I recommend leaving it unlocked ofc, people also "borrow" bikes when they need to get home from the bar. These will pick something reliable and simple to use.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Only vaguely related, but on the subject of stupid bike thieves, I do wonder how more don’t get stopped when you can blatantly tell many stolen bikes. Perhaps I’m assuming too much of the police, because I have some knowledge of the cost of bikes, but it’s not uncommon for me to see people who are on bikes that are far to expensive and inappropriate to be out. Ones that if they legitimately owned them they would never ride in the way they do. For example last week I saw someone in a hoody and tracksuit bottoms riding around near the station on a two year old downhill mountain bike that was £5000 when it was new. He had the seat slammed down and doing the typical “urban” knees in the air “gangster” ride. The cycle equivalent LG’s slammed 3 series with the seat set right down. Downhill bikes are totally unsuitable for cycling anywhere, they are very heavy, have gearing that is deigned with the assumption that you will be going downhill at 20+ mph and components that assume you will be hammering off big jumps. I don’t believe anyone who owned one would ride it in town, or set up that badly. No one buys one unless it is one of many bikes and they are a confident cyclist. If I was a police officer it would raise huge red flags for me and I’d be stopping him to ask about the legitimacy of ownership. I see it on a regular basis, people riding £2-3k full susser bikes totally incorrectly set up and very suspicious. I don’t know how they don’t get stopped more.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






Is this one of those bike rental companies? I've no idea how they stay in business with how many of the things seem to get abandoned all the time.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Yes. Mobike is one of several mainly Chinese rent by the hour companies which have started to set up in Europe.

According to an article I read, a Mobike costs £40 to build, and it can be rented out at £1 per 20 minutes, so in the right location you can make your money back in a few days.

The downsides are the support operation needed to recover lost and broken bikes, and the complete losses from vandalism and theft.

I've started to see bikes in Oxford with the tracker and lock broken off. Someone has nicked it and it's off the company's GPS locater. I've seen bikes which were thrown in the river and someone has recovered them, but obviously the tracker will have dies in the water.

I read another article which said that at least one of the Chinese based companies has gone bust while owing members millions of dollars of deposit to their Chinese members.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Steve steveson the problem is its not as easy as you think.
First up lots of people buy stuff that's very expensive and use it wrong. I know people that have spent thousands on camera gear and only ever use it in auto or program mode and have no idea about aperture or shutter speeds or really what they are doing. They might use lenses or flashes wrongly or in the wrong situations etc...

So a 5K bike being ridden "wrongly" isn't abnormal; it might just be that person bought a really expensive bike because they could


Dress and how people appear can be very missleading as to their personal finances. Some rich people can look very ordinary and some poor people can dress very smart and expensively (you can get a lot of higher end good clothing from charity shops).


Then you've got second hand and savings. A high end bike might have been sold to that person second hand for far less than its value (without it being stolen). Similarly that bike might have represented that person spending all their savings on that bike - if they don't have a family and live at home and perhaps get away paying little to the upkeep and hold a decent job they can make decent savings. If they don't have a car that's a big saving right there too.



In the end its a lot of what-ifs and a lot of potential for it to be perfectly legitimate. The police in many countries don't have the resources to go chasing what-ifs on that kind of scale. Now if there was a locked bike lock dangling from the bike that would change things; there's more reason to consider something abnormal with a higher chance of it being a crime.



Another point is the police themselves. How many people can recognise a 5K bike on the street? Not a huge number I'd wager so whilst its easy for you to spot because its a key interest for you, its much harder for anyone else to even be aware of the bikes value. Sure they might tell that its not a bottom end bike,but they can't guess at the price unless they happen to be a bike rider/enthusiast too.

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Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Steve steveson wrote:
I don’t know how they don’t get stopped more.

Because we live in a free democracy and the police have no more legal right to stop you on the basis of 'you looking too poor for that bike' than they do 'those are some awful nice trainers you've got there' or 'A tailor-made jacket? Bit grubby for one of those aren't you?'


 
   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




 Ketara wrote:
 Steve steveson wrote:
I don’t know how they don’t get stopped more.


Because we live in a free democracy and the police have no more legal right to stop you on the basis of 'you looking too poor for that bike' than they do 'those are some awful nice trainers you've got there' or 'A tailor-made jacket? Bit grubby for one of those aren't you?'


And ofc, even US police wouldn't do such a thing unless they had some other reason to stop a guy. They wait for 911 calls, investigate reported crimes, watch for traffic violations - they have work without trying to find something "suspicious" to look into. If every patrol car was bound up investigating some "suspicious" guy there would be hell to pay. Especially in the US where the wrong stopped guy could have his heavy-weight lawyer talk to the chief of police, or more likely someone above him...
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

It's also pretty much impossible for anyone to prove they own the bike they are on - they are unregistered, uninsured and there's no requirement to have any proof of ownership. On all but the high end there's probably no serial number or any way to identify the individual bike either.

My bike was bought new from a proper bike shop that does services so I could probably get them to confirm it, but I've got nothing for my wifes (2nd hand) and kids bike (halfords).

So even if you could stop someone for riding an expensive bike, you'd have no way to prove it was/wasn't theres.

Sure, a hoodie in a £5k downhill bike rolling round a park has probably stolen it, but it could have been a gift from someone with money, or he's saved really hard for it, or does downhill biking at the weekends or whatever. Innocent until proven guilty and all.
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Over here in San Francisco, Ford's started a pretty ambitious bike-sharing program- it doesn't seem like too bad of a deal to me either; $100/year for unlimited 45-minute rides (easily enough time to commute from one rack to the next, not enough time to steal it or go mountain biking). It also seems like they've put the work in to minimize their footprint on the local community, which I appreciate. Since the bikes *have* to be docked every 45 minutes, they never end up in piles on the street.

Now these bastards are the real terror:



fething things are everywhere, and since there's no dock people just leave them in the middle of sidewalk wherever they run out of juice. The entire practice reeks of the company being a venture capitalist baby that's hellbent on making the most money possible with the smallest overhead possible and then ducking out once regulations catch up with their practices.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Leeds, UK

Herzlos wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible for anyone to prove they own the bike they are on - they are unregistered, uninsured and there's no requirement to have any proof of ownership. On all but the high end there's probably no serial number or any way to identify the individual bike either.

My bike was bought new from a proper bike shop that does services so I could probably get them to confirm it, but I've got nothing for my wifes (2nd hand) and kids bike (halfords).


I was at a cycling event last year where the local police in my area were marking bikes up with a serial number for free. They were then logged on a database. Might be something to look into?

Not that I think its OK to stop people just because they don't look like they could afford a bike. My own bike was almost a grand, and I am often wearing jeans and a hoody.

   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Herbington wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible for anyone to prove they own the bike they are on - they are unregistered, uninsured and there's no requirement to have any proof of ownership. On all but the high end there's probably no serial number or any way to identify the individual bike either.

My bike was bought new from a proper bike shop that does services so I could probably get them to confirm it, but I've got nothing for my wifes (2nd hand) and kids bike (halfords).


I was at a cycling event last year where the local police in my area were marking bikes up with a serial number for free. They were then logged on a database. Might be something to look into?

Not that I think its OK to stop people just because they don't look like they could afford a bike. My own bike was almost a grand, and I am often wearing jeans and a hoody.


I believe most community police (where there are any) will do this for you as well. But I can't imagine that more than 1 or 2 % of bikes will have a serial number marked on them.
My dad used to stamp our post-code into the frame of our bikes, on the assumption that if it was stolen/recovered it could be identified/traced. Doesn't stop it getting stolen though.

There's no reason bikes couldn't come with some RFID info chip along the lines of cat/dog chips, built into the frame somewhere. That'd allow the police to quickly identify any abandoned/stolen bikes in a non-obtrusive way. It'd require some kind of industry standard though, and about a decade to become prevalent.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

There's a super-trendy European bike manufacturer whose bikes contain a tracking feature. If yours is stolen, they guarantee to find it in 7days or replace it.


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Herbington wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible for anyone to prove they own the bike they are on - they are unregistered, uninsured and there's no requirement to have any proof of ownership. On all but the high end there's probably no serial number or any way to identify the individual bike either.

My bike was bought new from a proper bike shop that does services so I could probably get them to confirm it, but I've got nothing for my wifes (2nd hand) and kids bike (halfords).


I was at a cycling event last year where the local police in my area were marking bikes up with a serial number for free. They were then logged on a database. Might be something to look into?

Not that I think its OK to stop people just because they don't look like they could afford a bike. My own bike was almost a grand, and I am often wearing jeans and a hoody.


Lets clarify this. It's not a case of "could not afford", its a case of totally incongruous. Downhill Mountain Bikes are specialised to the point of being almost totally useless outside their intended use. This isn't seeing someone driving a Ferrari in scruffy clothes, this is seeing someone wearing a three piece suit, pulling a caravan down the M40 with a JCB. To use the camera example, this is not seeing someone with an expensive camera, it is seeing someone with a Hasselblad wide format body with a fish eye lens using it to take family snaps at the seaside. My own bike is not cheap, and I don't always ride wearing Lycra, but this is not what I am talking about. The price is only relevant in that if someone can buy a high end downhill bike they can buy another bike, so there is no reason to be riding it in that way, not that I felt he was "too poor". The point in the clothes was not a judgement on the clothes or the wealth of the person wearing them, but that if he was wearing full MTB baggies and carrying a full face helmet it is possible that he was getting the train or waiting for a lift to head off to a trail centre, but as it was that was clearly not the case. Plenty of people buy bikes that are inappropriate or beyond their needs. I know I do, and would more if I had more money. I do not believe for a second any of them would take a downhill bike or TT bike down to the shops.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Thing is even if the police pull that person over what can they say? Unless the person acts guilty and runs from the police there's very little they can do other than chance it that there is a serial number on the bike; and that its registered in some database as lost.

Otherwise its just a suspicion without any evidence or proof nor much means of getting proof of theft.


The only time I'd expect it to happen would be if the police already had a report of an expensive bike theft and then had a least a justifiable reason to pull over random/select bikes for inspection. At least then there is a trail of information such as the bikes size, colour, make, model and serial number that they can check it too to see if it matches a reported stolen item.

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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I would guess someone who spent £5,000 on a bike would register it and have insurance.

This doesn't answer the question about stopping suspicious riders just because they might look a bit dodgy, of course.

Let's be honest, though, the police are under enough pressure thanks to austerity that a computer database of stolen bikes is the last thing they are going to worry about.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

 Steve steveson wrote:
Herbington wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
It's also pretty much impossible for anyone to prove they own the bike they are on - they are unregistered, uninsured and there's no requirement to have any proof of ownership. On all but the high end there's probably no serial number or any way to identify the individual bike either.

My bike was bought new from a proper bike shop that does services so I could probably get them to confirm it, but I've got nothing for my wifes (2nd hand) and kids bike (halfords).


I was at a cycling event last year where the local police in my area were marking bikes up with a serial number for free. They were then logged on a database. Might be something to look into?

Not that I think its OK to stop people just because they don't look like they could afford a bike. My own bike was almost a grand, and I am often wearing jeans and a hoody.


Lets clarify this. It's not a case of "could not afford", its a case of totally incongruous. Downhill Mountain Bikes are specialised to the point of being almost totally useless outside their intended use. This isn't seeing someone driving a Ferrari in scruffy clothes, this is seeing someone wearing a three piece suit, pulling a caravan down the M40 with a JCB. To use the camera example, this is not seeing someone with an expensive camera, it is seeing someone with a Hasselblad wide format body with a fish eye lens using it to take family snaps at the seaside. My own bike is not cheap, and I don't always ride wearing Lycra, but this is not what I am talking about. The price is only relevant in that if someone can buy a high end downhill bike they can buy another bike, so there is no reason to be riding it in that way, not that I felt he was "too poor". The point in the clothes was not a judgement on the clothes or the wealth of the person wearing them, but that if he was wearing full MTB baggies and carrying a full face helmet it is possible that he was getting the train or waiting for a lift to head off to a trail centre, but as it was that was clearly not the case. Plenty of people buy bikes that are inappropriate or beyond their needs. I know I do, and would more if I had more money. I do not believe for a second any of them would take a downhill bike or TT bike down to the shops.


Oh I don't think there'd be any doubt that it's stolen, with the specialist knowledge that it's an unsuitable bike but the bar for randomly stopping someone to establish it is fairly high, especially for an already stretched force. That said if a foot bobby saw them stopped with it somewhere and it was a quiet enough day they'd ask and see how they react. That it's borderline useless doesn't mean it's not valid - I see lots of people making life hard for themselves riding bikes with the seat as long as possible in the lowest gear - this could be a (stupid) attempt to go one further, or borrowed/gifted by someone that doesn't know it's no use.

Denmark (I believe) have actually introduced some laws to stop this sort of thing - targetted as proceeds of crime, where gang members who are in fine arrears with court systems and pleading poverty are being asked to prove they didn't steal the expensive watches/jackets etc they have with them. It's reasonable to assume that someone with no job, and outstanding fines to the courts, wouldn't be in a financial position to be walking about with a £10,000 watch on, and £500 trainers. But I believe that's tied to them already being known to the police and having no provable income.
   
 
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