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So, let's just assume for a second that the next CA has errata inside that allows Chaos Legions and Space Marine Chapters to apply their army traits to all their units, just like everyone else.

What's the worst that could happen?

Raven Guard Rhino rush with smokes for -2 to hit?
World Eater Landraiders running over people one more time for the blood god?
Alpha Legion Lord of Skulls claiming that he, in fact, is Alpharius Omegon?

Why would Ravenwing get Rhinos?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Ravenwing get Rhinos?

I'm fairly certain he meant Raven Guard.

ravenguard all those umie names sound alike to orks.

Yeah... they really could take away the restriction they put on Space Marines and CSM's and be a-okay. Main issue is that it would make Death Guard's Blighthaulers better, because they would gain the benefits of Inexorable Advance (move and fire heavy weapons at no penalty). Again, Alpha Legion would still be the best choice for most CSM stuff, but w/e, as if that really matters from how it is now.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Ravenwing get Rhinos?

I'm fairly certain he meant Raven Guard.

I figure that too, but still...they're not even remotely close to being the same thing.

Also, Raven Guard trait is at 12 inches or further--and they're the only Infiltrate stratagem in the Marine book. Which specifies it only works with an Infantry unit.


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 Yarium wrote:
Yeah... they really could take away the restriction they put on Space Marines and CSM's and be a-okay. Main issue is that it would make Death Guard's Blighthaulers better, because they would gain the benefits of Inexorable Advance (move and fire heavy weapons at no penalty). Again, Alpha Legion would still be the best choice for most CSM stuff, but w/e, as if that really matters from how it is now.

Ehhh...Death Guard actually have their traits more in line with other books. There's a few things that should get the FNP setup but otherwise they don't really need changes.

 Jidmah wrote:
What's the worst that could happen?

-2 to hit flyers springs to mind.

I just can't see what good the WE trait would do for the rest of the book. Some traits would be great though. Iron Warriors LT on tanks could be a righteous pain however. Same with UM. Tanks falling back and shooting could be decent.

 Yarium wrote:
Yeah... they really could take away the restriction they put on Space Marines and CSM's and be a-okay. Main issue is that it would make Death Guard's Blighthaulers better, because they would gain the benefits of Inexorable Advance (move and fire heavy weapons at no penalty). Again, Alpha Legion would still be the best choice for most CSM stuff, but w/e, as if that really matters from how it is now.

Blighthaulers already get to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty from tri-tracked. You're probably thinking of plagueburst crawlers.

The Ultramarine Fall back and shoot applying to vehicles would be pretty sweet.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, let's just assume for a second that the next CA has errata inside that allows Chaos Legions and Space Marine Chapters to apply their army traits to all their units, just like everyone else.

What's the worst that could happen?

Ravenwing Rhino rush with smokes for -2 to hit?
World Eater Landraiders running over people one more time for the blood god?
Alpha Legion Lord of Skulls claiming that he, in fact, is Alpharius Omegon?

Now do that math with a Leviathan Dreadnought or Arterus Hover Tank.

I could see some relaxing of the chapter tactics now that there is good data out on them, but some restrictions are needed for practicality's sake.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
ravenguard all those umie names sound alike to orks.

Eh, goff beakies either way


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Now do that math with a Leviathan Dreadnought or Arterus Hover Tank.

I could see some relaxing of the chapter tactics now that there is good data out on them, but some restrictions are needed for practicality's sake.

At least hellforged leviathans already benefit from legion traits because they are helbrutes.

Also, the point of the thread is you doing the math.


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Ehhh...Death Guard actually have their traits more in line with other books. There's a few things that should get the FNP setup but otherwise they don't really need changes.

The death guard trait is inexorable advance, which allows units to move and shoot heavy weapons or advance and shoot assault weapons without penalties, and makes rapid fire range 18".
+1T and FNP is simply found on most models that are unique to DG, but not a legion trait.

IMO Inexorable advance wouldn't make a huge difference for PBC, since the most power comes from the flamers anyways - and those are assault weapons. Neither the mortar nor the heavy stubber would gain a lot from hitting on 4+ instead of 5+.
A small point hike might be in order, but it's not going to make or break them.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
So, let's just assume for a second that the next CA has errata inside that allows Chaos Legions and Space Marine Chapters to apply their army traits to all their units, just like everyone else.

What's the worst that could happen?

Ravenwing Rhino rush with smokes for -2 to hit?
World Eater Landraiders running over people one more time for the blood god?
Alpha Legion Lord of Skulls claiming that he, in fact, is Alpharius Omegon?

Now do that math with a Leviathan Dreadnought or Arterus Hover Tank.

I could see some relaxing of the chapter tactics now that there is good data out on them, but some restrictions are needed for practicality's sake.

Leviathans dreads already gain chapter tactics. They have the dreadnought keyword.

Finally my Black templars rhinos can reroll their charge range! There will be no mercy for the heretics and xenos!

A.T. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What's the worst that could happen?

-2 to hit flyers springs to mind.

You mean more -2 to hit flyers surely. Still better than -3 to hit alitoc.

Well, if a Leviathan Dreadnought can do it, there's probably no harm in any of the ordinary Space Marine vehicles doing it.

Like, the worst that could happen is -1 to hit on a Predator, and that's not particularly broken.

Reemule wrote:
The Ultramarine Fall back and shoot applying to vehicles would be pretty sweet.

I honestly think it might make a UM army that isn't just a Gulliman gunline pretty compeitive

What I would rather see is... rather fluffy...

I want Successors to be able to use all the stuff their parent Chapter can!

Sorry, I just think UM Successors should be able to use the UM WL trait! What? They just don't teach CP regen to Successors???

 darkcloak wrote:
What I would rather see is... rather fluffy...

I want Successors to be able to use all the stuff their parent Chapter can!

Sorry, I just think UM Successors should be able to use the UM WL trait! What? They just don't teach CP regen to Successors???

on that I agree, relics for the core chapter only? sure! but restricting WL traits seems silly.

Yeah, I could see why relics would be outskie, but really we were all taking the Burning Blade anyways...

BrianDavion wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
What I would rather see is... rather fluffy...

I want Successors to be able to use all the stuff their parent Chapter can!

Sorry, I just think UM Successors should be able to use the UM WL trait! What? They just don't teach CP regen to Successors???

on that I agree, relics for the core chapter only? sure! but restricting WL traits seems silly.

I suppose that's one of the things that made 7th better in that regard. Yeah Navaerez was weird in the same detachment as Calgar, but did it REALLY break anything?

 Jidmah wrote:
So, let's just assume for a second that the next CA has errata inside that allows Chaos Legions and Space Marine Chapters to apply their army traits to all their units, just like everyone else.

What's the worst that could happen?

Raven Guard Rhino rush with smokes for -2 to hit?
World Eater Landraiders running over people one more time for the blood god?
Alpha Legion Lord of Skulls claiming that he, in fact, is Alpharius Omegon?

Most likely CTs getting reworked so that the ones which don't mesh well with vehicles gain a vehicle specific trait rule like Guard do.

So basically, nothing worth noting in terms of negative nonsense.

So, to summarize, the most powerful things out of such a change are:
- Raven Guard fliers with -2 to hit
- PBC that can move and shoot their mortar and heavy stubber with -1
- Ultramarine tanks falling back and shooting, at -2 most likely to due to trait and heavy weapon.

In conclusion, I don't see a reason to not just flip the switch.

 Jidmah wrote:
Alpha Legion Lord of Skulls claiming that he, in fact, is Alpharius Omegon?

 Jidmah wrote:
So, to summarize, the most powerful things out of such a change are:
- Raven Guard fliers with -2 to hit
- PBC that can move and shoot their mortar and heavy stubber with -1
- Ultramarine tanks falling back and shooting, at -2 most likely to due to trait and heavy weapon.

In conclusion, I don't see a reason to not just flip the switch.

In my friendly games with my ultras we already do it. I can confirm this is one of the least game breaking changes they could make. It will make ravengaurd a lot better for sure but that is because the -1 to hit trait should just be removed from the game.

I would love UM tactic on vehicles, since I play Successors. Unfortunately for me it's an all Primaris Chapter so the only vehicle I can has, can do already...

Thanks FLY keyword...

 darkcloak wrote:
I would love UM tactic on vehicles, since I play Successors. Unfortunately for me it's an all Primaris Chapter so the only vehicle I can has, can do already...

Thanks FLY keyword...

You're forgetting the other primaris vehicle, the redemptor dreadnought. It doesn't get it from having the FLY keyword, it gets it from the DREADNOUGHT keyword.

 darkcloak wrote:
I would love UM tactic on vehicles, since I play Successors. Unfortunately for me it's an all Primaris Chapter so the only vehicle I can has, can do already...

Thanks FLY keyword...

Same for me - I usually am running 2 repulsors. So it does very little for me. Sometimes I take a few razorbacks and I can fallback and shoot on 5's...Man...OP.

Really the Ultra marine trait needs to be buffed. -1 for falling back is nonsense. Harlequins can fallback shoot and charge at full power...absolutely 0 need for the -1 requirement. Then it might actually be good on vehicles.

I like clocks idea of adapting traits to vehicles. Like - for ultras - it should be "due to extreme discipline" Ultramarine vheicals should be able to fire while in close combat - just not at units within 1" inch of them.
Some traits are fine for the vehicals - salamanders is great. So is Imperial fists. So is Ironhands.
White scars should just get +3" movement or can advance and count as not advancing for the purposes of shooting.
While Ravenguard should get a free move after deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IronBrand wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
I would love UM tactic on vehicles, since I play Successors. Unfortunately for me it's an all Primaris Chapter so the only vehicle I can has, can do already...

Thanks FLY keyword...

You're forgetting the other primaris vehicle, the redemptor dreadnought. It doesn't get it from having the FLY keyword, it gets it from the DREADNOUGHT keyword.

Yep but it still hits on 5's if it falls back and shoots. garbage.