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The author is either ignorant of certain parts of the lore or is trying to change it. For instance the authors states that the deathguard are actually dead from a mortal sense and are kept alive by their gods. Also it has changed daemon princes from being autonomous, rather being possessed, granted he says that the Primarchs can still retain autonomy to some degree but even normal daemon princes are just possessed. Yes Fulgrim was possessed but, that was well before he became a daemon prince. I think the author is just ignorant of the lore, maybe BL want to take things in a new direction but, I don't think so. Making characters possessed takes away from their character and their familiarity that we have for them , does blacklibrary not proof read or edit their books, with the amount of grammar mistakes that are in BL books I don't think they bother at all. It seems anyone can write whatever they want in the lore now.

(Miss read the book so don't bother commenting its been settled.)

I can see it working.

Once again, the 'blessings' of demons are just curses. Did grandfather Nurgle really make you invulnerable or is his power the only thing keeping you together? Are you alive or just another meat puppet? Sure, that daemon prince says they are a person, but wouldn't a demon lie? Where does the person end and the demon begin? Is there any distinction anymore?

The warp is so nefarious and chaotic that nothing can be held with confidence.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I can see it working.

Once again, the 'blessings' of demons are just curses. Did grandfather Nurgle really make you invulnerable or is his power the only thing keeping you together? Are you alive or just another meat puppet? Sure, that daemon prince says they are a person, but wouldn't a demon lie? Where does the person end and the demon begin? Is there any distinction anymore?

The warp is so nefarious and chaotic that nothing can be held with confidence.

That's not actually what I was talking about, you could change the lore to anything you want, my point is that this book turns long lasting lore upside down. We know that daemon princes are not daemons possessing people or Astartes, we also know that CSM's are 'not' dead, they have life signs etc. They have apothecaries, Fabius would be the first to assert that CSM's were dead. If they were dead they wouldn't be able to last so long in the materium, the Gods need CSM's because they are alive and can stay in the materium, that's one of the reasons why they did the whole HH, to get an army in the materium. I mean this book is a cluster feth for the lore. It would have worked if they intended this in the first place, but it doesn't work seeing that all previous lore contradicts this. You can change small things within the lore; poetic license, but you can't change fundamental lore.

There are many things we can take about the warp with full confidence. We know Daemons feed on our emotions and souls and are created by emotions, we know they cannot be in the meterium for long, we know that time is not static there etc. We know that its in constant change. Saying nothing can be held with confidence isn't true and it just opens the gateway for people writing whatever they want about it.

Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

In fairness, many years ago, that is how it was. Laughter of the Dark Gods (admittedly a fantasy novel, but chaos is chaos) describes a champion being elevated to daemonhood. His last thoughts are the terror as he realises his mistake following chaos, as a daemon takes control of his body.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead. There is no pdf at the moment, so I don't want to lose my place on my ebook looking for it. But there is no added context to it. The Primarch part says explicitly that they are possessed and that some daemon princes have no autonomy at all, I can quote the Deathguard bit


Narration describing Dantine:

"He is a puppet now, a shadow within a world of ghouls and mists. It matters not that he cannot read the warp, nor that he cannot pilot a star-ship. His soul clings to his body despite its mortal death."

There is no context to why he is 'dead' so it must be extended to all deathguard.

This is also backed up by Dantine taking a human PDF soldier to aid him and he has had, his hearth removed and is dead himself, Dantine saying 'how can you know you are alive now."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JamesY wrote:
In fairness, many years ago, that is how it was. Laughter of the Dark Gods (admittedly a fantasy novel, but chaos is chaos) describes a champion being elevated to daemonhood. His last thoughts are the terror as he realises his mistake following chaos, as a daemon takes control of his body.

Yeah, its been reconnected and it been the way it has been for ages. You can't just randomly bring back old lore.

“Old lore” on demon princes was that someone was elevated to demonhood, very diferent from possession as you describe. So that is a change in fluff. But this is what GW do. If it suits the story being told they will change things or tell things differently. It might not be a permenant change but it works for that book. Never heard that the plague marines are dead. They certainly would be if nurgle hadn’t stopped the diseases killing them but I think that’s a stretch too.

This is why I have always said you need to pick the bits that work for you and ignore others. The “lore” is very transient. They can and do change it as they want. New, old, it’s all as likely to be used by GW as any other.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead.

But if any CSM are going to be considered dead (or undead in this case) Death Guard would make the most sense. I don't think you can say it's logical to apply that to all CSMs.

The other bits about Daemon Princes just goes to show that GW have never had a lore bible or any overall, high-level guidance for their authors about how their universe works. This may be entirely new background that supercedes everything previously, an error from the writer, or it may be specific to one character, or just one possible fate for those turned into Daemon Princes. One of the problems when dealing with Chaos is the way the insidious nature of their "gifts". Perhaps Daemon Princes simply think they have more autonomy and free will than they really do?

Andykp wrote:
“Old lore” on demon princes was that someone was elevated to demonhood, very diferent from possession as you describe. So that is a change in fluff. But this is what GW do. If it suits the story being told they will change things or tell things differently. It might not be a permenant change but it works for that book. Never heard that the plague marines are dead. They certainly would be if nurgle hadn’t stopped the diseases killing them but I think that’s a stretch too.

This is why I have always said you need to pick the bits that work for you and ignore others. The “lore” is very transient. They can and do change it as they want. New, old, it’s all as likely to be used by GW as any other.

I think its more oversight that changing of lore on GW part.

Deamons of all shapes and sizes are described as being extensions of the dark gods, thus it stands to reason that a Deamon Prince is no differant. and if you are an extension of your patron god well... is it really you? or have you been posessed by the god etc? it's a bit of a philophosical question.

As for the death guard basicly being dead and kept alive only by nurgle, that's not something I see as a hugely differant thing I mea for feth's sake, let's LOOK at a death guard model for a second!




those are deathguard, their bodies are bloated with disease, they have guts hanging out of rents in their armor etc. these men should be dead. there's no way the human body can survive the state they are in, thus yeah the ONLY thing keeping them together is nurgle. that's always been the case anything else is all matters of degrees.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead.

But if any CSM are going to be considered dead (or undead in this case) Death Guard would make the most sense. I don't think you can say it's logical to apply that to all CSMs.

The other bits about Daemon Princes just goes to show that GW have never had a lore bible or any overall, high-level guidance for their authors about how their universe works. This may be entirely new background that supercedes everything previously, an error from the writer, or it may be specific to one character, or just one possible fate for those turned into Daemon Princes. One of the problems when dealing with Chaos is the way the insidious nature of their "gifts". Perhaps Daemon Princes simply think they have more autonomy and free will than they really do?

Not really, Khorne is about martial pride and killing, kinda by that logic they should all have been be 'killed' or thousands sons shifting between the two as constant change, I really don't see how Deathguard would be dead, doesn't make sense to me, it makes the most sense out of all the others if they were to be made as such, but in and of themselves I don't see why you would make them dead. If daemon princes were not autonomous they would not retain their character, but who knows maybe the daemon is just acting with their psychology etc.. What I don't like about it is the fact that its come out of nowhere and there is no background to this new lore. Its just, they are dead for some reason or other. If the writer wrote some cool background to why they are dead I'd be less against the idea.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead.

But if any CSM are going to be considered dead (or undead in this case) Death Guard would make the most sense. I don't think you can say it's logical to apply that to all CSMs.

The other bits about Daemon Princes just goes to show that GW have never had a lore bible or any overall, high-level guidance for their authors about how their universe works. This may be entirely new background that supercedes everything previously, an error from the writer, or it may be specific to one character, or just one possible fate for those turned into Daemon Princes. One of the problems when dealing with Chaos is the way the insidious nature of their "gifts". Perhaps Daemon Princes simply think they have more autonomy and free will than they really do?

Not really, Khorne is about martial pride and killing, kinda by that logic they should all have been be 'killed' or thousands sons shifting between the two as constant change, I really don't see how Deathguard would be dead, doesn't make sense to me, it makes the most sense out of all the others if they were to be made as such, but in and of themselves I don't see why you would make them dead. If daemon princes were not autonomous they would not retain their character.

Why would death guard be dead? It's simple. Because there's no logical way to survive the "gifts" they have, it makes perfect sense that they are Clinicly dead and simply kept alive by the grace of nurgle.
As for Deamon princes, they would retain their character if the god felt it was benifical, I suspect the nature of a deamon princes relationship with his god is.... complex

Sounds like a case of disease keeping the victim alive, its fairly common in fiction. In this case the diseases are gifted by Nurgle, so it could be said that their god is keeping them alive. I'm fairly sure there is precedence for the Death Guard's Plague Marines being dead, weren't the first of them in Flight of the Eisenstein brought back from the dead by Nurgle when the ship entered the Warp?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Sounds like a case of disease keeping the victim alive, its fairly common in fiction. In this case the diseases are gifted by Nurgle, so it could be said that their god is keeping them alive. I'm fairly sure there is precedence for the Death Guard's Plague Marines being dead, weren't the first of them in Flight of the Eisenstein brought back from the dead by Nurgle when the ship entered the Warp?

possiably, thats another thing to consider as well, does it says "All Plague Marines are X" or just the one in the story? because there is so much variation in chaos that trying to apply rules from specific cases is madness

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead.

But if any CSM are going to be considered dead (or undead in this case) Death Guard would make the most sense. I don't think you can say it's logical to apply that to all CSMs.

The other bits about Daemon Princes just goes to show that GW have never had a lore bible or any overall, high-level guidance for their authors about how their universe works. This may be entirely new background that supercedes everything previously, an error from the writer, or it may be specific to one character, or just one possible fate for those turned into Daemon Princes. One of the problems when dealing with Chaos is the way the insidious nature of their "gifts". Perhaps Daemon Princes simply think they have more autonomy and free will than they really do?

Not really, Khorne is about martial pride and killing, kinda by that logic they should all have been be 'killed' or thousands sons shifting between the two as constant change, I really don't see how Deathguard would be dead, doesn't make sense to me, it makes the most sense out of all the others if they were to be made as such, but in and of themselves I don't see why you would make them dead. If daemon princes were not autonomous they would not retain their character.

Why would death guard be dead? It's simple. Because there's no logical way to survive the "gifts" they have, it makes perfect sense that they are Clinicly dead and simply kept alive by the grace of nurgle.
As for Deamon princes, they would retain their character if the god felt it was benifical, I suspect the nature of a deamon princes relationship with his god is.... complex

Well the other legions survive the gifts, why is there no logical way though, the warp kinda trumps logic, that's why this new lore if it is new lore should have had background to is, explaining it rather than just, yup they are dead.

I can live with the Deathguard being dead, I can't live with Daemon Princes being possessed, it takes all character away from them and leaves them just essentially normal daemons.

Does it specifically say all Daemon Princes or just the one in the story? Because The Exalted in the Night Lords trilogy was Possessed and on his way to becoming a Daemon Prince, so again there is precedence for some Daemon Princes to be little more than Super Possessed.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Does it specifically say all Daemon Princes or just the one in the story? Because The Exalted in the Night Lords trilogy was Possessed and on his way to becoming a Daemon Prince, so again there is precedence for some Daemon Princes to be little more than Super Possessed.

Yes it says daemon princes generally, talks about the Primarchs being able to retain autonomy but pretty much the rest are just completely possessed. They are possessed before they become daemon princes like Fulgrim but it never happened with Angron or others. Angron became a daemon prince out of nowhere and there was no possession involved.

I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Iracundus wrote:
I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Well now the book is saying Dantine is alive, I don't know what is going on with this, the book is pretty badly written and Chris Wraight is actually a good novelist so I think he just churned this book out. Same with Charion Throne that was awful.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Well now the book is saying Dantine is alive, I don't know what is going on with this, the book is pretty badly written and Chris Wraight is actually a good novelist so I think he just churned this book out. Same with Charion Throne that was awful.

I actually didn't mind Carrion Throne. I thought it was pretty good actually because of it showing a bit more about life on Terra and the behind the scenes functioning of the Custodes. I agree though that Lords of Silence was disappointing. I was hoping a little bit more exploration about the Death Guard, their ideology, the Plague Planet, and/or Mortarion. Instead we got a bit of a paint by the numbers tour of the various Death Guard unit types, and some standard CSM type surliness and simmering insubordination. The "conversion" of the former Guardsman is also unconvincing and a let down since it seems he is magically blackmailed/coerced or made delirious rather than having any kind of epiphany or conversion experience.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Well now the book is saying Dantine is alive, I don't know what is going on with this, the book is pretty badly written and Chris Wraight is actually a good novelist so I think he just churned this book out. Same with Charion Throne that was awful.

I actually didn't mind Carrion Throne. I thought it was pretty good actually because of it showing a bit more about life on Terra and the behind the scenes functioning of the Custodes. I agree though that Lords of Silence was disappointing. I was hoping a little bit more exploration about the Death Guard, their ideology, the Plague Planet, and/or Mortarion. Instead we got a bit of a paint by the numbers tour of the various Death Guard unit types, and some standard CSM type surliness and simmering insubordination. The "conversion" of the former Guardsman is also unconvincing and a let down since it seems he is magically blackmailed/coerced or made delirious rather than having any kind of epiphany or conversion experience.

I think the best fall of a typical man into chaos was in the dark apostle series myself.

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Well now the book is saying Dantine is alive, I don't know what is going on with this, the book is pretty badly written and Chris Wraight is actually a good novelist so I think he just churned this book out. Same with Charion Throne that was awful.

I actually didn't mind Carrion Throne. I thought it was pretty good actually because of it showing a bit more about life on Terra and the behind the scenes functioning of the Custodes. I agree though that Lords of Silence was disappointing. I was hoping a little bit more exploration about the Death Guard, their ideology, the Plague Planet, and/or Mortarion. Instead we got a bit of a paint by the numbers tour of the various Death Guard unit types, and some standard CSM type surliness and simmering insubordination. The "conversion" of the former Guardsman is also unconvincing and a let down since it seems he is magically blackmailed/coerced or made delirious rather than having any kind of epiphany or conversion experience.

Yeah, I really don't like this novel, I'm just finishing it because I've already read half of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
I would view it as Death Guard should be dead, if not for the power of Nurgle. They are not dead in the sense of zombies risen back from being dead, but they are basically "alive" when any normal living thing should by all rights be dead already. They are infected with all sorts of diseases that interfere with the normal working of the body, and they have internal organs spilling out. They survive weapon hits that blow further holes and take chunks out of their bodies. Nurgle's power keeps them in a state of decay but prevents them from fully expiring from their various diseases and wounds. Of course there is also a limit which is why normal weapons can still kill Death Guard albeit with difficulty.

Well now the book is saying Dantine is alive, I don't know what is going on with this, the book is pretty badly written and Chris Wraight is actually a good novelist so I think he just churned this book out. Same with Charion Throne that was awful.

I actually didn't mind Carrion Throne. I thought it was pretty good actually because of it showing a bit more about life on Terra and the behind the scenes functioning of the Custodes. I agree though that Lords of Silence was disappointing. I was hoping a little bit more exploration about the Death Guard, their ideology, the Plague Planet, and/or Mortarion. Instead we got a bit of a paint by the numbers tour of the various Death Guard unit types, and some standard CSM type surliness and simmering insubordination. The "conversion" of the former Guardsman is also unconvincing and a let down since it seems he is magically blackmailed/coerced or made delirious rather than having any kind of epiphany or conversion experience.

I think the best fall of a typical man into chaos was in the dark apostle series myself.

Not a fall exactly but my favourite human heretic is Gholic Ren-Sar Valinov. Even his name is so badass.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead. There is no pdf at the moment, so I don't want to lose my place on my ebook looking for it. But there is no added context to it. The Primarch part says explicitly that they are possessed and that some daemon princes have no autonomy at all, I can quote the Deathguard bit

Honestly? I don't think that applies to all Chaos Space Marines at all. The Death Guard had a rather unique transformation into Chaos - unlike the World Eaters who almost all willingly turned as a result of the Nails, the Emperor's Children who wilfully turned due to the constant exposure of their Legion to the Laer Slaanesh-mas, or the Thousand Sons, who really had no choice and were more largely transformed by the Rubric of Ahriman, the Death Guard were essentially spiritually and physically destroyed and tormented by Nurgle.

But even so - the quote below sheds NO idea that the entire Death Guard are "dead", let alone all CSM.

Narration describing Dantine:

"He is a puppet now, a shadow within a world of ghouls and mists. It matters not that he cannot read the warp, nor that he cannot pilot a star-ship. His soul clings to his body despite its mortal death."

There is no context to why he is 'dead' so it must be extended to all deathguard.

This is also backed up by Dantine taking a human PDF soldier to aid him and he has had, his hearth removed and is dead himself, Dantine saying 'how can you know you are alive now."

How on earth does one person being "dead" mean their whole Legion is??
Have you got any more quotes about Dantine? Considering how that sentence describing him sounds, he looks to be the exception, not the norm.

In other words, I think you're exaggerating grossly here, unless you can find me more quotes?

 JamesY wrote:
In fairness, many years ago, that is how it was. Laughter of the Dark Gods (admittedly a fantasy novel, but chaos is chaos) describes a champion being elevated to daemonhood. His last thoughts are the terror as he realises his mistake following chaos, as a daemon takes control of his body.

Yeah, its been reconnected and it been the way it has been for ages. You can't just randomly bring back old lore.

If you can find us some quotes to show that, indeed, the Death Guard are now all dead, then yes, you can, and yes, they did.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Death Guard aren't all Astartes. I've not read Lords of Silence, so my interpretation is entirely gleaned from what you've put in the OP (quotes would be lovely here!), but you never imply that Lords of Silence says that ALL CSM are dead. Only Death Guard - and while that may be a retcon, it's not hard to believe that the Death Guard Legion were entirely subsumed into Nurgle's dominion. After all, the Thousand Sons (barring psykers) were killed. Why not the Death Guard?

Could it be an error? Yeah. Could it be a retcon? Yeah. We won't know until another book solidifies it.

To aid this argument, for those of us who haven't actually read it, would you be able to throw in quotes from the book? If the mods don't approve, that's fair, but at the moment, you're just saying things, and I have no idea if you're being hyperbolic.

Well its a logical inference that the writer would apply it to CSM's, as Deathguard have never been dead. There is no pdf at the moment, so I don't want to lose my place on my ebook looking for it. But there is no added context to it. The Primarch part says explicitly that they are possessed and that some daemon princes have no autonomy at all, I can quote the Deathguard bit

Honestly? I don't think that applies to all Chaos Space Marines at all. The Death Guard had a rather unique transformation into Chaos - unlike the World Eaters who almost all willingly turned as a result of the Nails, the Emperor's Children who wilfully turned due to the constant exposure of their Legion to the Laer Slaanesh-mas, or the Thousand Sons, who really had no choice and were more largely transformed by the Rubric of Ahriman, the Death Guard were essentially spiritually and physically destroyed and tormented by Nurgle.

But even so - the quote below sheds NO idea that the entire Death Guard are "dead", let alone all CSM.

Narration describing Dantine:

"He is a puppet now, a shadow within a world of ghouls and mists. It matters not that he cannot read the warp, nor that he cannot pilot a star-ship. His soul clings to his body despite its mortal death."

There is no context to why he is 'dead' so it must be extended to all deathguard.

This is also backed up by Dantine taking a human PDF soldier to aid him and he has had, his hearth removed and is dead himself, Dantine saying 'how can you know you are alive now."

How on earth does one person being "dead" mean their whole Legion is??
Have you got any more quotes about Dantine? Considering how that sentence describing him sounds, he looks to be the exception, not the norm.

In other words, I think you're exaggerating grossly here, unless you can find me more quotes?

 JamesY wrote:
In fairness, many years ago, that is how it was. Laughter of the Dark Gods (admittedly a fantasy novel, but chaos is chaos) describes a champion being elevated to daemonhood. His last thoughts are the terror as he realises his mistake following chaos, as a daemon takes control of his body.

Yeah, its been reconnected and it been the way it has been for ages. You can't just randomly bring back old lore.

If you can find us some quotes to show that, indeed, the Death Guard are now all dead, then yes, you can, and yes, they did.

Saying them turning to chaos was different, therefore they must be different, as in dead isn't really that persuasive. The circumstances of the thousand sons was very different from the others. yet they don't have any characteristics because of it. The Deathguard never died from the destroyer hive, they came close to death, them being dead has only ever been mentioned in this novel.

"But even so - the quote below sheds NO idea that the entire Death Guard are "dead", let alone all CSM." Of course it does. First of all if he's dead and tied to his body and there is no description of why that is, its safe to assume that its a generalisation of the Deathguard. Do you think the writer is just going to say he's dead and tied to his body out of nowhere and add no context whatsoever, the lack of context must suggest it applies to all the deathguard otherwise its really odd to just say this character is dead for no reason. I cannot think of a reason other than the writer suggesting its all Deathguard Exaggerating, well seeing that the writer has given no context to the idea of Dantine being dead etc. then yes I have to assume because of his terrible writing. Dantine isn't written as an exception.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Saying them turning to chaos was different, therefore they must be different, as in dead isn't really that persuasive. The circumstances of the thousand sons was very different from the others. yet they don't have any characteristics because of it. The Deathguard never died from the destroyer hive, they came close to death, them being dead has only ever been mentioned in this novel.

Is it "them" or is it just the one Death Guard guy?

Also, I think the way that they were corrupted is VERY important. Take Decius (I think his name is) in Flight of the Eisenstein. I don't 100% remember, but from what I remember, he only becomes the Lord of the Flies AFTER he "dies" and succumbs to Nurgle - aka, what happened to the Legion.

However, even if that IS the case, who says that the book is even claiming that the entire Legion is dead?

"But even so - the quote below sheds NO idea that the entire Death Guard are "dead", let alone all CSM." Of course it does. First of all if he's dead and tied to his body and there is no description of why that is then its safe to assume that its a generalisation of the Deathguard.

Why? Does the Ultramarines Omnibus saying that Pasanius is a large Space Marine mean that the entire Ultramarines Chapter is larger than other Chapters? No - because they single him out specifically in regards to that, and never support that idea for anyone else.

The quotes you've given don't suggest that at all.

Do you think the writer is just going to say he's dead and tied to his body out of nowhere and add no context whatsoever to that. Exaggerating, well seeing that the writer has given no context to the idea of Dantine being dead etc. then yes I have to assume because of his terrible writing. Dantine isn't written as an exception.

I beg to differ. Common writing convention suggests that too. It ONLY mentions Dantine (and no other Marine explicitly) is "dead". The quote you supply sounds very similar to the kind of description that is commonly assigned to a single character as a description of that one character.

Ventris is described as having short, dark hair. That's not the same for every Ultramarine.
Gaunt is described as being quite a fair and humane Commissar. That's not the norm.
Hermione Granger in the Harry Potter series is described as buck-toothed and with bushy hair. That doesn't apply to everyone else in Harry Potter.

What suggests in the text that Dantine is normal for this? Does anyone else have anything similar? I feel that, for what you're saying to be correct, you're not mentioning certain quotes from the text that would support it. If that can't be proved, then it remains up for debate.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Saying them turning to chaos was different, therefore they must be different, as in dead isn't really that persuasive. The circumstances of the thousand sons was very different from the others. yet they don't have any characteristics because of it. The Deathguard never died from the destroyer hive, they came close to death, them being dead has only ever been mentioned in this novel.

Is it "them" or is it just the one Death Guard guy?

Also, I think the way that they were corrupted is VERY important. Take Decius (I think his name is) in Flight of the Eisenstein. I don't 100% remember, but from what I remember, he only becomes the Lord of the Flies AFTER he "dies" and succumbs to Nurgle - aka, what happened to the Legion.

However, even if that IS the case, who says that the book is even claiming that the entire Legion is dead?

"But even so - the quote below sheds NO idea that the entire Death Guard are "dead", let alone all CSM." Of course it does. First of all if he's dead and tied to his body and there is no description of why that is then its safe to assume that its a generalisation of the Deathguard.

Why? Does the Ultramarines Omnibus saying that Pasanius is a large Space Marine mean that the entire Ultramarines Chapter is larger than other Chapters? No - because they single him out specifically in regards to that, and never support that idea for anyone else.

The quotes you've given don't suggest that at all.

Do you think the writer is just going to say he's dead and tied to his body out of nowhere and add no context whatsoever to that. Exaggerating, well seeing that the writer has given no context to the idea of Dantine being dead etc. then yes I have to assume because of his terrible writing. Dantine isn't written as an exception.

I beg to differ. Common writing convention suggests that too. It ONLY mentions Dantine (and no other Marine explicitly) is "dead". The quote you supply sounds very similar to the kind of description that is commonly assigned to a single character as a description of that one character.

Ventris is described as having short, dark hair. That's not the same for every Ultramarine.
Gaunt is described as being quite a fair and humane Commissar. That's not the norm.
Hermione Granger in the Harry Potter series is described as buck-toothed and with bushy hair. That doesn't apply to everyone else in Harry Potter.

What suggests in the text that Dantine is normal for this? Does anyone else have anything similar? I feel that, for what you're saying to be correct, you're not mentioning certain quotes from the text that would support it. If that can't be proved, then it remains up for debate.

And is it common writing convention to assert a very important factor and not explain or describe it at all. I think not. If it was assigned to a single character, they would describe why that character was indeed dead. I have not left out anything the quote literally has no description whatsoever, all he does is state that he is no longer living and his soul is bound to his body and that he he is useful in that he can lead the Deathguard to his homeworld. Him being dead has no context or description whatsoever.

except we know the details Del. "cause chaos!" this is no differant from describing a chaos marine who has a mutation in the form of a 6th finger, that does not mean "all chaos space marines develop a 6th finger"

you are taking a single quote about a single character and drawing entirely too much from it.

We're not saying you're wrong, but you need to understand you may not be RIGHT eaither. it's a data point. insufficant info to say eaither way

BrianDavion wrote:
except we know the details Del. "cause chaos!" this is no differant from describing a chaos marine who has a mutation in the form of a 6th finger, that does not mean "all chaos space marines develop a 6th finger"

I'm a complete dummy. The book is so bad I've barely been paying attention, Dantine is actually a human not a member of the deathguard, my bad. I have been literally just skim reading this book. My bad. Though the possession thing is still right.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Yeah, its been reconnected and it been the way it has been for ages. You can't just randomly bring back old lore.

Well, for a start, yes they can, they can do what they like with their lore. But they haven't retconned anything. Some retain themselves when they become Daemon princes (like the warsmith in storm of iron, or the primarchs) whilst others loose control of their bodies to daemonic possession, and remain as a tiny consciousness that has to watch what the Daemon does, as nearly befalls the exalted in the night lords trilogy. Elevation to Daemon princehood has always been damnation disguised as the ultimate prize.

I'm reading Lords of Silence right now and I'm not really getting your complaint. In fact, I found the aspect of Daemon Princes and Primarchs fitting and nothing new. Daemon princes being puppets of their god is one of the main reasons Abaddon refuses to become a Daemon Prince. It's also one of the reasons for the conflict between Typhus and Mortarion - Typhus is still partly autonomous and can do actions on his own, while Mortarion is a mere puppet of Nurgle. And that's not new fluff, it has been described in many CSM codizes before.
Concerning the Plague Marines being dead... I didn't read it that way. On the contrary, the novel makes a point in saying that Vorx and some of the other Plague Marines are actually 10000 years old, they were even part of the Dusk Raiders already, which I find pretty cool. However, the narrator also makes clear that the Warp is the reason for that to work - but that's nothing new as well.