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Why do some people take what that woman said about the Emperor in Master of Mankind seriously? She was an enemy of the Emperor having her son taken away by a Custodes and being confronted for her crimes. Of course she is going to trash talk him. She was an enemy/rival of the Emperor.

Which part? The part where she says he isn't human? Because lore has always suggested he is something more.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Which part? The part where she says he isn't human? Because lore has always suggested he is something more.

Yes. And DAOT tech. And the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. When you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. Hence the "breathing" part.

Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.

What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.

He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.

Onething123456 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Which part? The part where she says he isn't human? Because lore has always suggested he is something more.

Yes. And DAOT tech. And the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant. When you look at him, you see what he wants you to see. Hence the "breathing" part.

No one has seen what the actual Emperor looks like, Sisters of Silence think he looks like a young man with a silent scream, because of all the anguish he's endured on behalf of mankind. Corax recognised the Emperor and the Emperor was surprised that he could recognise him, but what Corax saw was a person with no characteristics whatsoever. Vulken, Custodes, Magnus saw him as an old man etc.

The Emperor had seemed young in body, but his eyes were as old as anything Corax had ever seen. He was of no particular stature, neither tall nor short, fat nor thin. ‘You recognise me?’ the Emperor had asked when the two had withdrawn from the others. He had been clearly surprised by Corax’s reaction. ‘As if from an old dream, yes,’ Corax had replied. ‘I thought you would be taller.’ ‘Interesting,’ had been the Emperor’s brief reply. It was then that the Emperor had explained to Corax what he truly was – a primarch, one of twenty created by him to lead Mankind’s conquest of the stars. Corax had not doubted a word of it, the presence of the Emperor made everything else fall into place.

From all the lore on what the Emperor looks like is that his form is a contradiction. That's the only concrete evidence we can take from the lore.

Is it suggested that he makes you see what he wants via psychic powers?

Because if that is the case, alpha level blanks potentially see him in his true form...

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Is it suggested that he makes you see what he wants via psychic powers?

Because if that is the case, alpha level blanks potentially see him in his true form...

That's why some people think the Sisters of Silence see the 'real' Emperor.

beast_gts wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Is it suggested that he makes you see what he wants via psychic powers?

Because if that is the case, alpha level blanks potentially see him in his true form...

That's why some people think the Sisters of Silence see the 'real' Emperor.

Though the Emperor isn't hampered by the Sisters as pariahs, so I don't believe that they can actually really see him. 'All' the Custodes see him as an old man so, I don't find it a coincidence that All the Custodes see one thing and all the Sisters see one thing.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yeah, but lore has long suggested that he's not purely human, so its nothing new. People have always argued that he could be something from the Dark Age. Or something no longer man, considering he has the ability to make you see what he wants to see and tells people what they want to hear.

What Zo think's the Emperor is could be what he wanted her to see, him as a relic of the Dark Age. Its no different from the Primarch's seeing him as a father, while the Custodes 'think' they know that the Emperor doesn't see the Primarchs as his children. Its all about what he wants you to see for the purpose he needs.

He could have made Zo into an enemy through her perceptions of him, precisely because he needed her to be so he could have an excuse to take Ra into the Legio Custodes so that he could be there for the events of the end of the book.

Assuming she even believed what she said. She is an unreliable source. After all, she was an enemy/rival of the Emperor.

What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."

Beaten to the punch lol.




But from all that text, the part actually important to the conversation.

"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’

Lorgar makes the same obervation when he says Magnus 'looks the most like' the Emperor - specifically because of his 'face-dancing'.

He definitely appears differently to different people. Pariahs seem to not necessarily see what he wants them to see, but even then they're not all consistant with what they see (aside from a lack of inspiring golden glow)...

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

She's not really an unreliable source on what she sees of the Emperor. Everyone sees him in a different way, how she sees him could likely have been planned. Her seeing something others dont is backed by the simple fact that everyone sees something different. Even then as far as most people know, with lost records and him first appearing to humanity in the mess after the dark age, her point of view is likely that of many. This super man showed up out of the blue in the wake of ruin and is able to smash anything at will. To most that would seem to suggest something of the Lost Age.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What did she say for those of us who haven't read MoM?

"So it seems. If you have any last words, I will ensure they reach the Emperor’s ears.’
Koja Zu’s lip curled. ‘Emperor. How I loathe that title.’
‘He is the ruler of this world and the master of our species. No title is more appropriate.’
She bared her teeth in an expression too ugly and defiant to be a smile. ‘Have you ever considered just
what kind of creature you serve?’
‘Yes.’ The dark eyes stared on. ‘Have you?’
‘The “Master of Mankind”.’ She shook her head, feeling the welcome flare of righteousness. ‘He isn’t
even human.’
‘Minister Zu.’ The golden warrior made a warning of her name. One she didn’t heed.
‘Does He even breathe?’ she demanded. ‘Tell me that, Custodian. Have you ever heard Him breathe? He
is a relic left over from the Dark Age. A weapon left out of its box, now running rampant.’
Valdor blinked once. The first time she’d seen him blink so far. That rare human movement was
unnerving – to her it felt false, like it had no right taking place upon his statuesque features.
‘Terra,’ he said, ‘is a thirsty world.’
She knew, then. With those words, she knew which of her many crimes she was to die for. The one she’d
least expected.
A laugh, queasy and unwanted, tore iself from her throat. ‘Oh, you vile slave,’ she said, unable to keep
the sick grin from her face.
‘Other worlds suffer a similar thirst.’ The golden killer’s eyes had glassed over with an inhuman serenity
made all the more uncomfortable by the living intelligence shining behind it. ‘Yet none of them hold the
war-scarred, irradiated honour of being mankind’s cradle. This world is the beating heart of the Great
Crusade, minister. Do you know how many men, women and children now make their slow way back here
– to humanity’s first home? Do you know how many pilgrims wish only to see the ancestral Earth with
their own eyes? How many refugees flee their flawed and failing worlds now the veil of Old Night has
been lifted? Already it is said that unsettled land on the Throneworld is the most valuable commodity in
our nascent Imperium. But this is not so, is it? One resource is far more precious.’
She clutched the autopistol tighter as he spoke, breathing slowly and calmly. Even knowing she was to
die, even knowing she had no hope of drawing the weapon, the body was reluctant to surrender its
survival instincts. Instinct demanded she fight to live.
‘What I did,’ she said, ‘I did for my people.’
‘And now you will die for what you did for them,’ he said without malice.
‘For that alone?’ ‘For that alone. Your other treacheries are meaningless in my master’s eyes. Your cleansing pogroms.
Your trade in forbidden flesh. The army of gene-worked detritus you have sequestered in the bunkers
beneath the Jermanic Steppes. The prospect of your rebellion was never a threat to the Pax Imperialis.
Your crimes of apostasy are nothing. You are dying for the sin of your harvester machines drinking the
Last Ocean.’
‘For stealing water?’ She felt like laughing again, and the sensation wasn’t a pleasant one. The laughter
was creeping up through her blood, seeking a release. ‘All of this… because I stole water?’
‘It pleases me that you understand the situation, Minister Zu.’ He inclined his head once more, with a
curious courtesy and another subtle purr of machine-muscles. ‘Goodbye.’
‘Wait. What of my son? What is his fate?’
‘He will be armed with silver, armoured in gold and burdened by the weight of ultimate expectation.’
Zu swallowed, feeling her skin crawl anew. ‘Will he live?’
The golden statue nodded. ‘If he is strong.’
In that moment, her trembles subsided. The fear bled away, leaving only naked defiance somewhere
between relief and hope. She closed her eyes.
‘Then he will live,’ she said.
There was a bang, throaty and concussive, and she was falling, drowning, choking in thunder. There was
pressure and heat and grey, grey, grey. And then mercifully there was nothing.
Nothing, at least, for her."

Unreliable source as she was an enemy and rival of the Emperor.

Never said it was reliable, I merely did a solid by giving the quote. Its unreliable in that she hates the Emperor, but the fact that she said he was a weapon from the DAOT must be a rumour that is said on Terra, we have no way of knowing if the rumour itself is reliable or not.

I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.

Why does she not have reason to lie? Just because she knew she was going to die.? People will say all sorts of lies even when they know they are going to die. She was an enemy of the Emperor.


I wonder if she knew the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't see her as that unreliable of a source. She had little to no reason to lie to Valdor and his reaction, though very muted seems to indicate that he wasn't going to deny her accusations. Further we have the Primarchs to consider. They are explicitly not human, made whole cloth from science and warp energy. Whose to say that the emperor isn't something similar.

Why does she not have reason to lie? Just because she knew she was going to die.? People will say all sorts of lies even when they know they are going to die. She was an enemy of the Emperor.


I wonder if she the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him.

Yeah but why mention the DAOT at all, or that he is a weapon. That is a very random thing to lie about if there is no rumour in the first place. Calling him a monster or inhuman etc. would be more believable.

Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.


PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.

There's also the simpler possibility she was just wrong. She seems to have given the subject at least some thought as she has what she thinks are logical reasons for believing what she does. Doesn't make her right, of course.

Slipspace wrote:
There's also the simpler possibility she was just wrong. She seems to have given the subject at least some thought as she has what she thinks are logical reasons for believing what she does. Doesn't make her right, of course.

If she believed it, then did she realize the Emperor is not really a 16 foot tall golden giant and that you see what he wants you to see when you look at him?

Didn't you already start one thread about this earlier?

Onething123456 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.


PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.

Im not denying that it happens so cool your jets turbo, talking in all caps and down to people when you're the one having issues understanding what is said gets you know where but on peoples ignore list. Further more saying "I'll humor you." in a blanket discussion, where you have no better ground for your argument than anyone else, just makes you look like an ass. If you look very carefully you'll see that I said ALOT, alot of people lie to get out of the deaths. I never said no one lies, I never said no one pleads when they are about to die and know they aren't getting out of it. Pleading is not the same as lying, you do know that yeah? Pleading was just an example I used in support of her character. She doesn't plead, she accepts the fact that she is going to die. That acceptance leads credence to the fact that she would not be lying as she would have no reason to. It accomplishes nothing, neither does telling what she sees as the truth to Valdor, because Valdor is created to be loyal and has his own interpretation of what the Emperor is.

I never said I believe she's the only one to speculate. Everyone speculates because no one knows for sure who or what he is, because he shows people what they want him to see plain and simple. He wants Ra to see him as a child Psyker in the cradle of civilization. He want's Arkhan Land to see him as a detatched cold emotionless machine of logic, the avatar of his Machine God. He wants the Primarchs to see him as a father. He misleads people with his powers, undoubtedly this would lead people to speculate what he is and what his powers are.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

People will say things even when they know they will die. Do you realize that? Ted Bundy knew he was going to executed, but he still pleaded. Zo is untrustworthy. The Emperor is not DAOT.


PEOPLE WILL SAY ALL SORTS OF THINGS EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THEY WILL DIE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

Alright. I'll humor you. Even if she believed it, do you really think she is the only character in-universe to speculate about what the Emperor is? Many characters have wondered and speculated about what the Emperor is and why he is so powerful.

Im not denying that it happens so cool your jets turbo, talking in all caps and down to people when you're the one having issues understanding what is said gets you know where but on peoples ignore list. Further more saying "I'll humor you." in a blanket discussion, where you have no better ground for your argument than anyone else, just makes you look like an ass. If you look very carefully you'll see that I said ALOT, alot of people lie to get out of the deaths. I never said no one lies, I never said no one pleads when they are about to die and know they aren't getting out of it. Pleading is not the same as lying, you do know that yeah? Pleading was just an example I used in support of her character. She doesn't plead, she accepts the fact that she is going to die. That acceptance leads credence to the fact that she would not be lying as she would have no reason to. It accomplishes nothing, neither does telling what she sees as the truth to Valdor, because Valdor is created to be loyal and has his own interpretation of what the Emperor is.

I never said I believe she's the only one to speculate. Everyone speculates because no one knows for sure who or what he is, because he shows people what they want him to see plain and simple. He wants Ra to see him as a child Psyker in the cradle of civilization. He want's Arkhan Land to see him as a detatched cold emotionless machine of logic, the avatar of his Machine God. He wants the Primarchs to see him as a father. He misleads people with his powers, undoubtedly this would lead people to speculate what he is and what his powers are.

Sorry for coming off as an ass. I just wanted to emphasize.

Its fine, no hard feelings. Just helping you make your argument in a better manner.

And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?

Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc

BrianDavion wrote:
And the theory Zo has put forward IIRC is an old one, and frankly it makes PERFECT sense We know that during the DAOT experiments where done with both warptech and genetics, we know there's an entire vault on Mars full of abandoned technology that fuses mechanics and the warp. It's not a unreasonable idea that someone may have tried genetics and the warp. Look at all those closest to the Emperor, outside of Malcador, you have the Primarchs, geneticaly engineered super beings, the custodes, geneticly engineered super beings, is this the Emperor simply seeking perfectly loyal individuals custom crafted to his needs, or is it a despirate creation, despiratly seeking companionship like Frankenstein's Monster wished for a bride?

Ultimately we don't know, but the theory she advances is one worth considering on it's own merits, yes she is biased against him which means she's apt to be negitive in her views and we need to be careful in that regard, but she wasn't lying so much as theorizing, if she was LYING she'd have said something like "I can prove to you he's a weapon let lose" etc

That doesn't make sense to me. She could very well have been lying.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Alot of people that lie before they die are doing it in an attempt to get out of their deaths.

Pleading would have gotten her no where with Valdor, the Emperor commanded her death and so it was to be. She knew that, she'd have no reason to lie. She was telling the truth as she knew it.

You don't understand. Yeah they will say whatever they want when they are about to die, but why specifically say he is from the DAOT and that he's a weapon. I don't think he is but I think there is credence to it because of its specificity. He was probably not created then but something happened for him to be linked to the DAOT as the Emperor never revealed himself to mankind. Sure maybe she just assumes that the DAOT is so 'magical in its technological advance' that she just equates him to that time. But still you can't just dismiss it because she's the enemy. Its like saying all enemies talk of are lies because they have opposing views etc.