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When there is a Space Marine founding who makes the decision on where the gene-seed comes from for the new chapters? Does the Council of Terra just choose? Do chapters get to petition to get new successor chapters? Is it based on what gene-seed is readily available? Is there something else I am totally missing? Thanks!

I think it's the High Lords who decide all of it. But IIRC one of the DA Successors was formed on request which is really weird.

I think the High Lords would have to sign off on a Chapter being created, but a a new Chapter could be created for a variety of reasons;

In response to a specific threat, to guard a certain part of the Imperium, to commemorate a victorious crusade, at another respected chapters request, an ideological divide within a chapter etc.

 Kroem wrote:
I think the High Lords would have to sign off on a Chapter being created, but a a new Chapter could be created for a variety of reasons;

In response to a specific threat, to guard a certain part of the Imperium, to commemorate a victorious crusade, at another respected chapters request, an ideological divide within a chapter etc.

Thanks! This really answers the ultimate question I had regarding this which is why they use different gene-seeds at all when some are considered more "stable" than others.

Well the point I was getting at is that because the Chapter creation process is varied an ad-hoc, and Chapters are often created at times of great need, there are other factors than stability that play into gene seed selection.

As it is supposedly 60% of Space Marines are descended from the Ultramarines so it is clear that the Mechanicus chooses the most stable geneseed when it can.

Also, if a chapter gets too large because recruiting was good and deaths have been reduced, a chapter can split, at which the gene-seed is the same as that chapter

I do.

 Galef wrote:
Also, if a chapter gets too large because recruiting was good and deaths have been reduced, a chapter can split, at which the gene-seed is the same as that chapter

You can of course back this up? because I've never seen evidance of this.

The only example I can think of a Chapter created by splitting off from another Chapter without a Founding is a very extreme/unique case of the Sons of Medusa.

 Manchu wrote:
The only example I can think of a Chapter created by splitting off from another Chapter without a Founding is a very extreme/unique case of the Sons of Medusa.

Yeah same here. Generally I imagine space marine chapters only recruit as nesscary, (raising a Space Marine to a scout takes less then ten years, which isn't THAT long for a Space Marine chapter when you think of it) a space Marine chapter can easily just not recruit if they're full up. that said the codex allows some avenues to expand a chapter well beyond 1000 men, Librarians, Chaplains, and Tech Marines are NOT part of the "1000 man chapter" structure, the 10th company also has no limits on how many scouts a company can have (one of the space marine codices specificly says the raven guard and Ultramarines both have partiuclarly large scout companies. well the RG likely have it because they like scouts, the Ultramarines likely have it because they have such a fertile recruiting ground) the chapter honor guard also isn't limited (and yet again the Ultramarines have a notably big one) So generally speaking if a chapter grows too big they just shuffle worthy people into the honorguard, train them as techmarines etc. It's likely that a number of chapters noted for specializations such as lots of tech marines etc developed this during "years of plenty"

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Also, if a chapter gets too large because recruiting was good and deaths have been reduced, a chapter can split, at which the gene-seed is the same as that chapter

You can of course back this up? because I've never seen evidance of this.

Actually, I can't.
I guess I've been reading successor chapters wrong for over a decade. I've always thought that a the Codex dictates no more the 1000 battle bros, if they exceed this by close to 2000, they split to stay compliant.
I never realized successors had to be officially sanctioned by a gov't many light years away that might take decades to decide and dictate orders that would take yet more decades to reach the Chapter.

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 Galef wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Also, if a chapter gets too large because recruiting was good and deaths have been reduced, a chapter can split, at which the gene-seed is the same as that chapter

You can of course back this up? because I've never seen evidance of this.

Actually, I can't.
I guess I've been reading successor chapters wrong for over a decade. I've always thought that a the Codex dictates no more the 1000 battle bros, if they exceed this by close to 2000, they split to stay compliant.
I never realized successors had to be officially sanctioned by a gov't many light years away that might take decades to decide and dictate orders that would take yet more decades to reach the Chapter.

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Sucessors are formed on Mars from geneseed tithed to the adeptus Terra in large batches known as foundings.

It could theoretically happen. Not *quite* the same but the Sons of Medusa started out as a breakaway group of marines from the Iron Hands and their successors which was formally ratified as a Chapter by the High Lords in an edict described as *almost* unique (Imperial Armour 10 page 96) - so it certainly isn't a case of *every* post-2nd founding chapter being created from scratch per standard doctrine.

 Kroem wrote:
As it is supposedly 60% of Space Marines are descended from the Ultramarines so it is clear that the Mechanicus chooses the most stable geneseed when it can.

Not to mention it's what they have the most of, with over half the incoming geneseed tithe being UM stock. No one's going to notice a dent in the inventory if they found a dozen new UM-descendant Chapters.

Isn't the plethora of UM successors due to the fact that they had by far the largest Legion during the Heresy, and when their Primarch created the Codex, they split into the most successors?
Also, I've heard that part of the reason UM were so large is that they acquired all the Marines from the lost II and XI legions. It'd be interesting if this was ever confirmed

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 Galef wrote:
Isn't the plethora of UM successors due to the fact that they had by far the largest Legion during the Heresy, and when their Primarch created the Codex, they split into the most successors?
Also, I've heard that part of the reason UM were so large is that they acquired all the Marines from the lost II and XI legions. It'd be interesting if this was ever confirmed

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From what I remember it's because the Ultramarines had the least casualties because they skipped Terra (convenient) and it was rumoured they had the survivors of the lost legions but that could be that Lorgar was salty about how much his Legion sucked.

pm713 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Isn't the plethora of UM successors due to the fact that they had by far the largest Legion during the Heresy, and when their Primarch created the Codex, they split into the most successors?
Also, I've heard that part of the reason UM were so large is that they acquired all the Marines from the lost II and XI legions. It'd be interesting if this was ever confirmed

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From what I remember it's because the Ultramarines had the least casualties because they skipped Terra (convenient) and it was rumoured they had the survivors of the lost legions but that could be that Lorgar was salty about how much his Legion sucked.

The least casualties thing is an in invalid bit of old fluff in light of the Ultramarines getting butchered during the Betrayal at Calth and subsequent Shadow Crusade

They still likely had the most marines left at the end though since they started with more than anyone else by roughly 100k depending on the numbers. That said yea I like that they fleshed out what the other legions not on Terra were doing and how by the end pretty much every legion took major loses.

I would think the High Lords would look at why a new Chapter is needed and what sort of warfare they need to engage in. If they were sensible every single new Chapter would be created from the most stable gene seed available, which I think may be UM. But we know there are, for example, Blood Angels successors and the High Lords know that gene seed has some "issues", though they don't know the full extent of it.

It's an interesting question because I don't think it's ever been answered by GW. We know there have been new Chapters created, obviously, and it seems to be relatively frequent but it's never really been explained how the choice is made. It could even be political. The Blood Angels and successors are currently extremely depleted after fighting of the Tyranids and Daemons so would the High Lords authorise the creation of new Chapters from BA gene seed in order for some sort of balance to be maintained among the First Founding Legions? It'd be pretty bad PR if a First Founding Chapter was to disappear completely, after all.

It was my understanding that given sufficiently dire circumstances or the correct authority inquisitors can have chapters created, high lords and even space marine chapters themselves, and of course guilliman.

The beast series gives precedence to marines cutting there own detail and reforming a destroyed chapter, albeit in secret, the dark angels have had a chapter created at the request of azrael, so it doesn’t seem impossible that another chapter or chapter master could do the same.

 Galef wrote:
Isn't the plethora of UM successors due to the fact that they had by far the largest Legion during the Heresy, and when their Primarch created the Codex, they split into the most successors?
Also, I've heard that part of the reason UM were so large is that they acquired all the Marines from the lost II and XI legions. It'd be interesting if this was ever confirmed

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the rumor hasn't been confirmed and the author who introduced the rumor outright said you'd be wise not to give too much weight to a pair of word bearers with a grudge bad mouthing the Ultramarines. In fact given how opposed Gulliman seems to be to using traitor geneseed for well... anything, on the basis that the entire geneseed mjust be tainted it seems unlikely he accepted those of the fallen Legions into his Legion

I always assumed that was a nasty rumor by the Word Bears and Bobby G's legion having the most is a call back to how his legion is the most Greco/Roman. One of Romes biggest strengths through much of it's history as a republic and early empire was it's near endless man power compared to most other nations and kingdoms at the time. The Ultra Marines took some savage losses through out the Crusade and Heresy era but due to excellent logistics always had fresh recruits waiting.

The Sons of Medusa split from the Iron Hands to avert chapter war. I can't recall exactly, but I believe this was possible because of the unique clan-based structure of the Iron Hands.

I also think that as the Ultramarine geneseed is the most stable they will have the highest sucess rate with recruit implantation leading to greater numbers and casualty recovery rate.

I think the 'absorbed the lost legions thing' was a throwaway comment by a Word Bearer in one of the black library Horus Heresy books that even the author of said book came out and said not to take too seriously!