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Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





Hi all,

I am really looking forward to the new beasts of chaos codex, I have been a beasts player since start and my scrap WHFB box is full of them (have like 30 metal minatours, a few metal Shaggoths, shamans etc). Anyone ever read Soviern Stone Trilogy by Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman they will know why. Any hopes or dreams?, I really wish would remodel the bullgors they look like gak, but no new models abound. Lets pray all the models are now plastic not failcast is my one hope. I can't afford to preorder the codex (had van saar etc last week) but in a few weeks when see what happens I will maybe commit.

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Made in us
Clousseau




You know part of me is excited to see beastmen get something new as I'm primarily and always have been a chaos player.

But damn if this alpha strike summon spam nonsense breaks my spirit. It forces you to build certain ways to have a good game and it forces your area to build "samey".

And forget about it if you are playing legacy armies, even if they have updated points. Particularly armies that can spam summoning on top of alpha strike.
   
Made in de
Primus





Palmerston North

Plastic Centigors would be nice.
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






auticus wrote:
You know part of me is excited to see beastmen get something new as I'm primarily and always have been a chaos player.

But damn if this alpha strike summon spam nonsense breaks my spirit. It forces you to build certain ways to have a good game and it forces your area to build "samey".

And forget about it if you are playing legacy armies, even if they have updated points. Particularly armies that can spam summoning on top of alpha strike.


Feel like I should point out that Beasts of Chaos were a legacy army. So were the Daughters of Khaine and Legions of Nagash (as their individual factions). A lot of the old world stuff is starting to get updated.

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




I know a lot of the old stuff is getting updated. There's still a ton not updated, however.

And that still doesn't solve the alpha strike spam summoning direction they've gone in which forces certain builds if you don't want to get face rolled.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Chicago, IL

I for one am looking forward to this Saturday when I can get my hands on the full rules. I already had a small test game over the weekend using some of the rules. A few takeaways are bestigors are amazing now and be prepared to have the highest armor saves on the table as Beasts can just melt armor.

As far as the concerns about alpha strike, I a have always found that attempting alpha strikes in AoS to be to risky. It usually leaves your forces separated and vulnerable to counter attack, better to play the mission and avoid unnecessary combats.

To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






auticus wrote:
I know a lot of the old stuff is getting updated. There's still a ton not updated, however.

And that still doesn't solve the alpha strike spam summoning direction they've gone in which forces certain builds if you don't want to get face rolled.
Beastmen cannot just come in anywhere with any unit though. There are only certain units that can come in from reserves and they come in from the edge. The potential for counterplay is much stronger.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




When I posted that, there was a thread on twitter from someone that had said they saw the book and they were saying that one of the flavors / chapters / whatever you call them could do what stormcast do and just show up 9" from the enemy.

These being people that are fairly into the tournament scene and usually up on the releases before they release (because they get the book two weeks before everyone else) I took that at face value. One of the "tactics" being discussed was basically recycling units / sacrificing units and then summoning whole new units 9" from the enemy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/17 19:55:59


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Yeah there's one sub faction that improves the outflank, letting non-Brayherd units do it too. However that is in place of the benefits one of the other two would provide, and does come with a required command trait or artifact, though I do not remember what it is. I am not sure of the restrictions of deploying via summoning, preliminary it does not seem like their summoning is particularly strong but I will wait and see.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Beastman summoning is disruptive, not a hammer. Generally you're pulling in a chariot, 5 centigor, or a cockatrice. Something along those lines every single turn that pops up on a table edge where they are most needed. Backfield units need to be large to dissuade them.

The book feels solid to me with a good blend of different styles so everyone gets something they want.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Any summoning is disruptive. Some summoning isn't as big a deal. Other summoning like seraphon or nagash is flat out busted.

Summoning new stuff every turn seems like it could enter the busted realm unless you are also summoning.

Therein lies my issue. *unless you are also summoning*. They are forcing certain builds.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






So I went back and checked the reviews, supposedly summons have to come in from the board edge like ambushers. The anywhere thing is actually a command trait (or ability) for that shadow herd which lets a unit teleport. But the unit must be within 18" of the general and already more than 9" from the enemy for the ability to be used, supposedly. I wish Seraphon worked that way.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I don't like it that much, because I don't like free summoning that much, but the new Beastmen summoning rule is the first time the actual Beastmen Ambush rule works thematically and competitively.

I know the ambush rules is different, but the "We are fighting a bigger force that can come from anywhere" is better represented by the summoning rule.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Is anyone expecting/hoping for a plastic Dragon Ogor Shaggoth? I kinda think we might see one since the Dragon Ogors are plastic and new, and the Shaggoth is a pretty important wizard in the new tome. Also given that they can have a Thunderscorn allegiance, wouldn't they need a Leader too?

Can't wait til it comes out this weekend!
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Malathrim wrote:
Is anyone expecting/hoping for a plastic Dragon Ogor Shaggoth? I kinda think we might see one since the Dragon Ogors are plastic and new, and the Shaggoth is a pretty important wizard in the new tome. Also given that they can have a Thunderscorn allegiance, wouldn't they need a Leader too?

Can't wait til it comes out this weekend!

Dragon Ogors are a 5+ year old kit. Not exactly what I would call 'new'.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





I bit the bullet and ordered the codex, the Herdstone (mandatory) and the endless spells (just in case)

Idk what the guy is talking about alpha strike supremacy??? (is half army in reserve turn up turn 2 table edge at the latest, if go Darkwalkers warheard/thunderstrike count as bray heard and go ambush then can use 1 command point to get 1 unit not on edge can turn up 9" away). Is ok but they reduce the effectiveness of heard stone. I am gunna play test alot but if think the summoning from this is op??, it is just a bonus (try play against Nagash...) and if think the ambush is op/summoning (lizardman are way more). I think this looks ok (is good negative to the positive)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/20 10:29:58


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Made in us
Clousseau




We all have our thresholds of what we deem to be acceptable and not acceptable game design. Half of an army coming in on whatever table edge may not seem OP to you. What it is is a mechanic that forces opposing players to have to play a certain way and effectively allows the player to bypass a meaningful movement phase.

One unit coming in from a table edge would be cool. Half and now you're forcing the hand of what the opposing player can do.

The unit showing up 9" away will nearly always be a big hammer unit,which also forces the opposing player to play in a certain way.

Any mechanic that reduces the need of an effective movement phase short of "i place this here" will always be a large negative to me.

The summoning mechanic as it was related to me sounded closer to nagash with recycled units / sacrificing units to bring out other units in ambush.

Seraphon are way more. Seraphon are currently also one of the largest negative play experiences in AOS in the hands of someone that wants to powergame.
   
Made in au
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





auticus wrote:
We all have our thresholds of what we deem to be acceptable and not acceptable game design. Half of an army coming in on whatever table edge may not seem OP to you. What it is is a mechanic that forces opposing players to have to play a certain way and effectively allows the player to bypass a meaningful movement phase.

One unit coming in from a table edge would be cool. Half and now you're forcing the hand of what the opposing player can do.

The unit showing up 9" away will nearly always be a big hammer unit,which also forces the opposing player to play in a certain way.

Any mechanic that reduces the need of an effective movement phase short of "i place this here" will always be a large negative to me.

The summoning mechanic as it was related to me sounded closer to nagash with recycled units / sacrificing units to bring out other units in ambush.

Seraphon are way more. Seraphon are currently also one of the largest negative play experiences in AOS in the hands of someone that wants to powergame.


We gunna have to wait and see with a max of 5 summon points per turn (and that's with a great turn) + costs a command point, and darkwalkers which have the ambush and 9' away deploy for 1 unit, is a different battalion/heard etc I think looks more balanced than deepkin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/20 12:32:27


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Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Spectral Ceramite wrote:


We gunna have to wait and see with a max of 5 summon points per turn (and that's with a great turn) + costs a command point, and darkwalkers which have the ambush and 9' away deploy for 1 unit, is a different battalion/heard etc I think looks more balanced than deepkin.


6, max of 6 if you take the artifact and roll a 4+. Essentially 120pts max per turn. Compared to an average of 120pts per turn from Seraphon if they aren't even trying.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Yeah. Roughly +600 points so a 2000 point army is really 2600 points.

If you aren't also summoning alongside them, IMO don't even bother playing the game.

And yes seraphon are even worse. No argument. Last weekend during our campaign day the seraphon player brought in about 1000-1200 points worth of stuff free. Unsurprisingly between that and a double turn he won handily against a chaos army that summoned about 400 points of extra stuff.

So in reality it was a 3000/3200 point army vs a 2400 point army.

Its no surprise that the 3000/3200 point army would handily defeat the 2400 point army.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

Auticus, I don't mean this rudely but if you're done with AoS you don't need to keep hammering at the threads. We get it, you don't like the state of the game but I hope you can find like minded people to go play KoW with as you stated was your intention when you did an I'm out post in the other thread.

For perspective solely on Beastmen summoning since I know we'll never reach an agreed place on anything else and this is mostly information as you seem to not really understand how their summoning works.

+600 points for beastmen is if you have

a) paid 120pts for a unit to hang out that doesn't lose more than 5 dudes to shooting in the course of 4 turns
b) bought a character to babysit the herdstone
c) roll a 5 or 6 for 5 straight turns
d) Play Allherd
e) Take the extra cp on 4+ relic
f) roll a 4+ for 5 turns and keep the relic bearer alive 5 turns

That's a hell of a lot of criteria to hit 600pts.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Isn't that the point of optimizing an army list? Be it to fulfil one, three, or twenty pointers, optimizing an army list is about creating the army that can do all of those things or maximize the chance of doing all of those things.

The same criticism was thrown at me for going off on seraphon summoning when they released the chart before 2nd officially dropped. That you have to do all of these things to max summoning, like that was a hard thing to do and lo today we discover that that is exactly what people are doing.

I don't find it outlandish to consider that players realize that maxing summoning is a key to winning the current game and that playing armies that are maxing summoning while you don't means a short path to being squashed in many cases, so therefore I can easily see people finding the path to maximize summoning and alpha striking with beastmen and that being the defacto way it plays out.

Whether or not I want to keep playing, play other games, or am a giant fan is irrelevant to those points. And clarification: my direct quote that you are referring to stated that the changes pushed me into Kings of War territory and that these changes with GW doubling down on summoning and alpha striking were breaking my spirit (added here for additional clarity: because my local scene is dominated by summoning spam and alpha striking), not that I was quitting AOS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/20 18:20:12


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I do not believe this book will be that bad. Compared to SCE or Nighthaunt reserves, or Seraphon/Legions summoning it is entirely tame on both fronts. And there is a balancing factor in outflanking units not getting herdstone benefits (they will be too far away) while summoning requires stuff stand next to the herdstone. It means that maxing out both elements will spread the army thin to gain those advantages, a trade off.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




I would not like Auticus to go away. I like how he gives his opinion in a well explained manner and says it's his opinion and not fact. He can only make the game better hopefully if and when GW asks why there are less people who play when they use to be heavily into it before.

Since we don't have many posts here in Dakka for AoS it might seem he does it every thread, but if you look at it the other way, he doesn't do it very much, it's just we don't get as many posting.

I find it funny we have less posts in AoS when 2.0 came out and had a busy forum when General's Handbook 2017 was out. (or was it GH2016?)

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I too, appreciate his posting, as it has given me much to think about whether or not I want to rebase all my dudes and/or buy into AoS as a whole. It's nice to have a full perspective of opinions.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis






Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

auticus wrote:
Isn't that the point of optimizing an army list? Be it to fulfil one, three, or twenty pointers, optimizing an army list is about creating the army that can do all of those things or maximize the chance of doing all of those things.

The same criticism was thrown at me for going off on seraphon summoning when they released the chart before 2nd officially dropped. That you have to do all of these things to max summoning, like that was a hard thing to do and lo today we discover that that is exactly what people are doing.

I don't find it outlandish to consider that players realize that maxing summoning is a key to winning the current game and that playing armies that are maxing summoning while you don't means a short path to being squashed in many cases, so therefore I can easily see people finding the path to maximize summoning and alpha striking with beastmen and that being the defacto way it plays out.

Whether or not I want to keep playing, play other games, or am a giant fan is irrelevant to those points. And clarification: my direct quote that you are referring to stated that the changes pushed me into Kings of War territory and that these changes with GW doubling down on summoning and alpha striking were breaking my spirit (added here for additional clarity: because my local scene is dominated by summoning spam and alpha striking), not that I was quitting AOS.


My point was that it's not optimal to try for that maximum number and that even if you do then you're not going to get 600pts unless it's under the most extreme of circumstances.

As for relevance your desire pushing you away from GW and your general dislike of GW gets old man. I wouldn't be surprised if the drop off Davor mentioned is partially due to the constant negativity that you're own scene has brought about in you that you then pass on to this forum. There comes a time when constantly repeating your dislike of something just gets old. I apologize if I misread the Kings of War comment. I was suppose I jumped to the conclusion that if something was breaking your spirit you'd be done with it. Since that's the direction I'd take.

Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)

They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016) 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Well... there's not much else to discuss on these forums since there are few posts to begin with. I post about a lot of things on these forums both positive and negative. Additionally there are people reading what I have to say for the first time. So my thing is... if there's a topic I have an interest in positive or negative... I'm going to post in it. You'll notice I don't really go out of my way to post new threads about the same thing though.

When I posted my initial beastman book comment that you were responding to originally, there was a fairly large size twitter conversation going on about min/maxing summoning and alpha striking and how great that was with the new beastman book from people that are typically spot on with their assessments since they get the books two weeks before anyone else, so it had already put me in a bad mood, coupled with a campaign that I had sunk a ton of hours into imploded that weekend because of game imbalance between casual lists and powergamer lists colliding yet again.

So long as I have an investment in my collection I will post in AOS forums, both positive and negatively. This isn't the TGA where they ban you for posting negatively about the game.

The fact that that echo chamber exists and the game devs hang out on there is concerning as it is since there are no dissenting or counterbalancing voices. Its all just the greatest thing ever.

As I get deeper into KOW, if my community continues to keep its momentum, you may see less and less of me posting in AOS.

On the beastmen book, having read the beastmen book now I can say that its obnoxiousness level is still fairly up there in terms of negative play experiences, a bit more than playing most of the other chaos factions, but its not as bad as facing off against the nagash dick list or the seraphon mortal wound / summoning oven of fun. If I'm competitive, I'd probably give beastmen a hard pass simply because they won't do well against the power armies... but in a casual context they run the risk of squashing their opponent if the player isn't careful. Kind of like beastclaw raiders.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/20 23:15:04


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Chicago, IL

So your argument is that the book is stronger than the weak armies that are lagging behind but it is weaker than the upper crust crème de la crème armies. Isn't this a good thing. It means it makes them competitive but is drawing a line at strait power creep.

To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




My argument isn't really an argument. It was lamenting that the design studio is doubling down on free summoning and alpha striking mechanics and at the time I made my statement it was being fapped over by tournament players discussing breaking the game with the book.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

The only thing I disagree with is that summoning points are worth a 1:1 ratio with normal, initial points.

A 300 point unit that you summon on the last turn of the game, specially if you have deployment limitations and can't just put it on top of an objetive to win you the game (Thats very busted), that only has 1 turn to do something, is not worth the same that a unit that you have or summon the first turn.

But I still believe the only way to make "free summoning" work and have it balanced with non-summoning lists is to have special summoner units/rules and special "summonable" units. Like "This Beastmen Mutated-Shaman can summon this Giant-Spider-Bird". And you give the appropiate cost to that shaman, for him ,and for his summoning.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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