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I know I did a few of these months ago but I want to get some more feedback right before the Ork codex drops. I want to know peoples opinions on where ork weaponry is at and where they think it should be when the codex does drop.

Right now lets just talk about small arms weapons that you can take on an Ork boyz squad.

At the moment that is Shoota, Big Shoota, Rokkit and Kustom Shoota (Nob only) they have the following stats.

Shoota: 18' S4 assault 2 (FREE)
Big Shoota: 36' S5 Assault 3 (6pts)
Rokkit: 24' S8 AP-2 D3 Assault 1 (12pts)
Kustom Shoota: 18' S4 Assault 4 (4pts)

Now for my opinion on their cost/stats

Shoota: 18' S4 Assault 3 (FREE)
Big Shoota: 36' S5 Assault 4 (2pts)
Rokkit: 24' S8 AP-2 D3 Assault 1 (5pts)
Kustom Shoota: 18' S4 Assault 6 (1pt)

The rational behind this is that 1: Orkz need more Dakka, we suck at shooting so we should make up for that with Boat loads of dice, not to mention this would actually be a decent boost to our otherwise lackluster shooting in general, and team well with the new Dakka x3 rule. 2: Our dakka is both worse and MORE expensive than imperial equivalents. As an example, the Big Shoota is compared to the Heavy bolter because S5 and Range 36, however, it has more in common with a Storm bolter in terms of damage output....mind you, only at single shot range, as soon as the Storm Bolter gets in Double tap range it is superior in almost every situation. And at the moment the Big Shoota is 3x as expensive as a storm bolter. And finally 3: WE NEED MOAR DAKKA!


So I would love to hear everyone's opinions. please keep it respectful even if you disagree and think I am a moron.

Clearly the correct answer is 400 points per model.

Seriously though, the entire book is being reworked and we know that with that Orks will be hitting on 6s (and generating extra shots as well) so it looks like the army will be getting some help against those tricky space panzees. Basically because of the complete retooling and expansion of options it's too early to try and establish fair costs for anything in the new book, and too late to really argue over fair costs for a soon to be outdated index list.

I think the weapon costs will stay mostly the same as GW will happy with themselves giving us a bit more efficiency with the DakkaDakka rule and the Bad Moons re-rolling ones.

I imagine we'll get a few Strategems that help as well.

Somewhat related I think that Heavy Bolters are overcosted and Storm Bolters are undercosted.

 adamsouza wrote:
I think the weapon costs will stay mostly the same as GW will happy with themselves giving us a bit more efficiency with the DakkaDakka rule and the Bad Moons re-rolling ones.

I imagine we'll get a few Strategems that help as well.

I have never liked the idea of "rerolling 1s" for a faction that has a 1/3rd chance to hit at the best of times. 1/6th of your shots, or 1/4th of your misses to put it another way, have a 33% chance to hit again, compared to factions with good BS like Marines its 1/2 of your misses have a 2/3rd chance to hit again. Adding to that the fact that Dakka wasn't worth using when it was a strategem makes it really pathetic if they think that will fix Ork shooting.

Here's hoping they give at least some buffs to the aforementioned weapons

1 in 6 chance to reroll =16%
2 in 6 chance to hit = 33%
.16 x .33 = .0528
.33 + .0528 = 38%

Orks are only hitting on 5's and 6's, and those 6's become 2 hits.

.3828 x .5 = .1914

.3828 + .1914 = .5742

Is that math correct?

BS 5+ rerolling 1's and getting double hits on the 6 translates to about a 57% chance to hit?

Close. You'll average .583333 hits per shot with double hits on 6's and re-rolling 1's.

1/6 chance for single hit + 1/6 re-roll x 1/6 single hit = 7/36 single hits. Exact same odds for double hits, or 14/36 hits from double hits per shot. 21/36 or 7/12 hits per shot = .583333 average hits per shot. Exactly halfway between BS 4+ and BS 3+ that don't have re-rolls

Ignoring the re-rolling ones, you average .5 hits per shot, same as BS 4+. A -1 to hit will average the same effect on BS 5+, double hit on 6 as it would on BS 4+, reducing both to .333333 hits per shot

Assuming that's how it'll work in the codex, and that something makes natural 6's always hit for them, Ork weapons should cost roughly the same as a Guard or Tau equivalent would. Probably slightly lower to account for the lack of access to things like Orders or Markerlights to mitigate the middling BS.

Ummm...Where this 6 is double hit comes from? Dakka3 rule gives extra shot, not extra hit. You get 16% extra hits with the dakka3 rule so if you shoot 18 shots 7 hits(rather than 6) which is not BS4+.

SemperMortis wrote:

2: Our dakka is both worse and MORE expensive than imperial equivalents. As an example, the Big Shoota is compared to the Heavy bolter because S5 and Range 36, however, it has more in common with a Storm bolter in terms of damage output....mind you, only at single shot range, as soon as the Storm Bolter gets in Double tap range it is superior in almost every situation. And at the moment the Big Shoota is 3x as expensive as a storm bolter.

The storm bolter being your point of comparison makes your analysis skewed since it is itself undercosted relative to most other guns. A heavy stubber would be a more apt comparison: Heavy 3 S4 36" (and they look similar too!) for 4 pts.

tneva82 wrote:
Ummm...Where this 6 is double hit comes from? Dakka3 rule gives extra shot, not extra hit. You get 16% extra hits with the dakka3 rule so if you shoot 18 shots 7 hits(rather than 6) which is not BS4+.

I knew something wasn't right, but it's late and my brain is fuzzy.

Hit on 5 or 6 = .333333
1 in 6 rolls gererates another roll that hits on a 5 or 6 = .1666666 x .33333 = .05552
.33333+.05552 = .38885
.38885+.05552 = .44437

So BS 5+ re-rolling 1's and 6's generating another roll works out to about 44%.

Better than BS 5+ (33%), but worse than BS 4+ (50%)

If 6's to hit generate extra shots (that do not themselves generate more shots) that's .388888 hits without re-rolls, or .45370370 re-rolling 1's.

And because I'm in a mathy mood, if those additional shots could generate further additional shots on 6's, that would only be a slight improvement at .4 without re-rolls, or 4.6666 re-rolling 1's.

Either way, worse than a 4+ BS, warranting about 3/4 the cost of Guard or Tau weaponry of equivalent stats.

The extra shots themselves don't generate extra shots so all those "if's" can be removed. We KNOW already how the rules work as GW already showed us the rule.

All I’m going to say to this is the following –

No matter what happens in 3-6 weeks time with the codex release, someone, somewhere will consider the cost of something to be completely unfair.

There is pretty much ZERO point in trying to work out “fair” costs of things overall in 40k, least of all when the codex is being released soon, as all it does is promote disappointment.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
If 6's to hit generate extra shots (that do not themselves generate more shots) that's .388888 hits without re-rolls, or .45370370 re-rolling 1's.

And because I'm in a mathy mood, if those additional shots could generate further additional shots on 6's, that would only be a slight improvement at .4 without re-rolls, or 4.6666 re-rolling 1's.

Either way, worse than a 4+ BS, warranting about 3/4 the cost of Guard or Tau weaponry of equivalent stats.

Same maths results as I got!
Seems legit

Kdash wrote:
All I’m going to say to this is the following –

No matter what happens in 3-6 weeks time with the codex release, someone, somewhere will consider the cost of something to be completely unfair.

There is pretty much ZERO point in trying to work out “fair” costs of things overall in 40k, least of all when the codex is being released soon, as all it does is promote disappointment.

Would strongly agree with all this.

Ultimately all I'm really hoping to see are some reductions across the board for ranged options; I reckon the main problem with the Orks list at the moment is that it's very rarely worthwhile taking upgrades and options, as it's almost alway more points efficient to just bring more boyz, which feels rather limiting, army-composition-wise.If it doesn't happen though, I'll just crack on anyway; it's not something worth losing any sleep over.

 Nazrak wrote:

Kdash wrote:
All I’m going to say to this is the following –

No matter what happens in 3-6 weeks time with the codex release, someone, somewhere will consider the cost of something to be completely unfair.

There is pretty much ZERO point in trying to work out “fair” costs of things overall in 40k, least of all when the codex is being released soon, as all it does is promote disappointment.

Would strongly agree with all this.

Ultimately all I'm really hoping to see are some reductions across the board for ranged options; I reckon the main problem with the Orks list at the moment is that it's very rarely worthwhile taking upgrades and options, as it's almost alway more points efficient to just bring more boyz, which feels rather limiting, army-composition-wise.If it doesn't happen though, I'll just crack on anyway; it's not something worth losing any sleep over.

Problem being hashing them out here is pretty much useless. You think GW looks here?-) No. And even if they did this is like ~6 months too late MINIMUM. Codex has been printed and is likely already in UK or arriving soon from china anyway. Even if you think GW looks on forums letting players figure out points and just put them codex this should have started like december-february rather than now.

And he's right in that no matter what somebody is not happy with the prices.

Now if you are planning to do fan codex for your own use then that's fair play of course. But for official games this is pretty much pointless wishlisting.

tneva82 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Kdash wrote:
All I’m going to say to this is the following –

No matter what happens in 3-6 weeks time with the codex release, someone, somewhere will consider the cost of something to be completely unfair.

There is pretty much ZERO point in trying to work out “fair” costs of things overall in 40k, least of all when the codex is being released soon, as all it does is promote disappointment.

Would strongly agree with all this.

Ultimately all I'm really hoping to see are some reductions across the board for ranged options; I reckon the main problem with the Orks list at the moment is that it's very rarely worthwhile taking upgrades and options, as it's almost alway more points efficient to just bring more boyz, which feels rather limiting, army-composition-wise.If it doesn't happen though, I'll just crack on anyway; it's not something worth losing any sleep over.

Problem being hashing them out here is pretty much useless. You think GW looks here?-) No. And even if they did this is like ~6 months too late MINIMUM. Codex has been printed and is likely already in UK or arriving soon from china anyway. Even if you think GW looks on forums letting players figure out points and just put them codex this should have started like december-february rather than now.

And he's right in that no matter what somebody is not happy with the prices.

Now if you are planning to do fan codex for your own use then that's fair play of course. But for official games this is pretty much pointless wishlisting.

Oh yeah, you're absolutely right; I was just reiterating my thoughts on the matter (and which I mentioned when I emailed GW with feedback on the Index list like six months ago).

GW staff absolutely will be aware of stuff being said in forums. Whether they're lurking or engaging, and how deep they look, I don't know. But Dakka is absolutely on their radar.

Just because they read arguments from here does not mean they agree with any of them of course!

I'm pretty sure they are looking at forums. Quite a few changes to the codices that have been release this year were also found on many wish-lists.

Of course, they cannot every admit it, but scrounging the big forums for ideas on the codex they are currently writing is a lot more efficient than building all the knowledge themselves-

You think they hire somebody just to read forums?-) Do you know just how MANY forums there are? Dakkadakka members might think dakkadakka is all there is but it's still just dip in the water.

They have dedicated email address where to bombard wishlist if you so wish. But thing is this should have been started start of the year if you really wanted to effect. So now would be better to start bombarding for round 2 of codexes but might be too late already for some.

tneva82 wrote:
You think they hire somebody just to read forums?-) Do you know just how MANY forums there are? Dakkadakka members might think dakkadakka is all there is but it's still just dip in the water.

They have dedicated email address where to bombard wishlist if you so wish. But thing is this should have been started start of the year if you really wanted to effect. So now would be better to start bombarding for round 2 of codexes but might be too late already for some.

For a fact, they are aware of the forums and what the general chatter is about. I know people who work there.

No, they don't have a dedicated forum reader, that's absurd. But most of them are active hobbyists and so engage with the community.

tneva82 wrote:
You think they hire somebody just to read forums?-) Do you know just how MANY forums there are? Dakkadakka members might think dakkadakka is all there is but it's still just dip in the water.

They have dedicated email address where to bombard wishlist if you so wish. But thing is this should have been started start of the year if you really wanted to effect. So now would be better to start bombarding for round 2 of codexes but might be too late already for some.

No, I think the people already working there just read forums, just like I read forums and blogs regarding my job.

You also don't need to read all the forums. Read DakkaDakka, BOLS, B&S, FLG comments section and maybe The Waaagh! and you get a good idea of what ork players want. You can easily do that within an hour each morning.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
You think they hire somebody just to read forums?-) Do you know just how MANY forums there are? Dakkadakka members might think dakkadakka is all there is but it's still just dip in the water.

They have dedicated email address where to bombard wishlist if you so wish. But thing is this should have been started start of the year if you really wanted to effect. So now would be better to start bombarding for round 2 of codexes but might be too late already for some.

No, I think the people already working there just read forums, just like I read forums and blogs regarding my job.

You also don't need to read all the forums. Read DakkaDakka, BOLS, B&S, FLG comments section and maybe The Waaagh! and you get a good idea of what ork players want. You can easily do that within an hour each morning.

Exactly.

I'm not saying that the rules team is having daily meeting analysing every idea posted here. I'm saying they see the trends, none of the general complaints would pass them by.