Mono-faction army buff

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**Glitcha**

I was chatting with a friend and we were kicking around the idea of Should there be a mono-faction bonus to counter the "Soup" style list building. Personally I don't think it should be more CP. Lets face it most players are bring enough CP to games that you don't really need an initial boost in CP. We thought that extending the aura effects that the army have by 3".

Example: The waagh rule on a warboss would go from 6" to 9" if you are playing mono-faction.

When I say mono-faction I mean that everyone unit in the army has the same faction keywords and same <chapter tactic>.

**lliu**

Army bonuses like the ones in Middle Earth could work, although most soup armies will be able to fluffily be allies, so that wouldn't work. I don't think GW will address it.

**Reanimation_Protocol**

Glitcha wrote:
I was chatting with a friend and we were kicking around the idea of Should there be a mono-faction bonus to counter the "Soup" style list building. Personally I don't think it should be more CP. Lets face it most players are bring enough CP to games that you don't really need an initial boost in CP. We thought that extending the aura effects that the army have by 3".

Example: The waagh rule on a warboss would go from 6" to 9" if you are playing mono-faction.

When I say mono-faction I mean that everyone unit in the army has the same faction keywords and same <chapter tactic>.

so only imperium then ?

or how do you intend to balance that out for Necrons who need multiple <Dynasty> or DE with <Kabals> or Orks with <Klans or Kults or whatever> T'au with multiple <Sept>

these are all mono <FACTION> where there is no upper tier keyword that matches <IMPERIUM> and that's the issue when it comes to balancing the Imperials vs other factions

**Galef**

Nope. We don't need more reasons for people to complain about Eldar, which do just fine without souping. Even though this particular change isn't too huge, your coming from the wrong angle.

Instead of giving a blanket bonus to mono-faction armies, you should deny bonuses for multi-faction ones. That's the price for taking other factions.
There are tons of such suggestions being thrown out already, but the most likely change we'll see by the next Chapter Approved is that detachments will only be able to use the CPs they generated and those that are given from being Battle Forged.
So a cheap Guard Battalion will no longer be able to give its CPs for Knight or Marine Statagems

That will probably be enough to discourage soup, since right now the main reason players do it is generate more CPs for a different faction.
Players will quickly realize that if they want enough CPs for Faction A, they'll need more detachments for Faction A.
Soup will still happen as some factions need meat shields, but tier gap won't be so large

I really hope if this is how GW does it (since some upcoming factions have this verbage), I really hope they rejig CPs so that Battle Forged grants more than Battalions.

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**Kcalehc**

Galef wrote:

There are tons of such suggestions being thrown out already, but the most likely change we'll see by the next Chapter Approved is that detachments will only be able to use the CPs they generated and those that are given from being Battle Forged.-

I hope its CP's from a detachment can only be used on it or detachments of the same sub-faction (so not IMPERIUM, TYRANIDS, etc, as in Battle Brothers rule). A patrol/spearhead/vanguard/etc detachment would be pretty useless if it only had access to 0-1 CP (+ up to 3 from battle forged).

**Ice_can**

Galef wrote:
Nope. We don't need more reasons for people to complain about Eldar, which do just fine without souping. Even though this particular change isn't too huge, your coming from the wrong angle.

Instead of giving a blanket bonus to mono-faction armies, you should deny bonuses for multi-faction ones. That's the price for taking other factions.
There are tons of such suggestions being thrown out already, but the most likely change we'll see by the next Chapter Approved is that detachments will only be able to use the CPs they generated and those that are given from being Battle Forged.
So a cheap Guard Battalion will no longer be able to give its CPs for Knight or Marine Statagems

That will probably be enough to discourage soup, since right now the main reason players do it is generate more CPs for a different faction.
Players will quickly realize that if they want enough CPs for Faction A, they'll need more detachments for Faction A.
Soup will still happen as some factions need meat shields, but tier gap won't be so large

I really hope if this is how GW does it (since some upcoming factions have this verbage), I really hope they rejig CPs so that Battle Forged grants more than Battalions.

-

Choas and Aeldari arn't souping for CP, the CP is a Guard issue not a soup issue.

Soup needs a downside added to it which isn't currently in the rules, but this CP locking is brutal to Assasins, Sisters of Silence.
Also I'm going to LoL so hard when guard players realise that means no using strategums on Super heavy Auxiliary detachment LoW as they aren't regiment.

**Galef**

Kcalehc wrote:
Galef wrote:

There are tons of such suggestions being thrown out already, but the most likely change we'll see by the next Chapter Approved is that detachments will only be able to use the CPs they generated and those that are given from being Battle Forged.-

I hope its CP's from a detachment can only be used on it or detachments of the same sub-faction (so not IMPERIUM, TYRANIDS, etc, as in Battle Brothers rule). A patrol/spearhead/vanguard/etc detachment would be pretty useless if it only had access to 0-1 CP (+ up to 3 from battle forged).

And the best way to fix that for those 1CP detachments is to adjust BF to give 5CPs instead of Battalions. That way a Vanguard would have access to up to 6CPs total.
Restricting CPs to detachments only works if Battle Forged grants more from the get-go. And Battalions should never have been bumped from 3 to 5

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**mchammadad**

I would agree that CP should be restricted to their respective factions.Hell battle brothers does half the job why not give it a finishing touch.

"In addition. Command points generate by a detachment can only be used for the faction specified within the detachment. Command points generated from being a battle forged army ignore this restriction"

Something like this in the battle brothers rule would make sense.

And then probably.

"Change battle forged CP value to 5.

Change Spearhead, Vanguard,Supreme Command, Outrider detachments CP value to 2"

this way, specialized detachments aren't getting shafted too much by the huge disposition of a battalion

I would say these changes would only only help mono factions, but also reign in soup to be a more acceptable and more fair place in the meta. Instead of what is happening atm

**Slayer-Fan123**

And that still screws over armies like Custodes and Grey Knights and Deathwatch.

**MaxB**

The only thing I would worry about if GW move to restricting CP use to the faction that generated them, is how to keep track of that in a game.

Writing it down works, but now you have multiple documents (codexes, brb, scoresheets, etc). Or maybe follow Shadespire and Kill Team by using tokens? Whatever it is, I think it would be important for GW to provide an official system for tracking CP's for soup armies that is easy to use/understand.

**tneva82**

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
I was chatting with a friend and we were kicking around the idea of Should there be a mono-faction bonus to counter the "Soup" style list building. Personally I don't think it should be more CP. Lets face it most players are bring enough CP to games that you don't really need an initial boost in CP. We thought that extending the aura effects that the army have by 3".

Example: The waagh rule on a warboss would go from 6" to 9" if you are playing mono-faction.

When I say mono-faction I mean that everyone unit in the army has the same faction keywords and same <chapter tactic>.

so only imperium then ?

or how do you intend to balance that out for Necrons who need multiple <Dynasty> or DE with <Kabals> or Orks with <Klans or Kults or whatever> T'au with multiple <Sept>

these are all mono <FACTION> where there is no upper tier keyword that matches <IMPERIUM> and that's the issue when it comes to balancing the Imperials vs other factions

Umm Imperium would be limited to having say 1 IG regiment only for that. Imperium keyword would be useless here as you couldn't have multiple different chapters/IG+SM etc allies anyway. So Imperium would be on same level as orks for example. Different ork clans do have upper tier keyword(called Ork funny enough) but that doesn't help much when you can only soup up with other ork clans unlike Imperium who can ally with IG+marine+knight etc combo. But this proposal would not only kill that but also cadian+catachan combo as well for example. So orks would actually gain up in balance vs Imperium soup. So what is your complain?

**Reanimation_Protocol**

tneva82 wrote:
So what is your complain?

Hopeyou don't mind I snipped out the rest for the sake of space..

I'm saying that in trying to fix an issue where Imperium players can take the best of .. Nine I think Codexes so far. that you inadvertently bugger up the mono faction codexes.

there's no way to fix something at <FACTION> level ... <IMPERIUM> <CHAOS> <NECRON> etc. are the top line factions, so any rule would need to be the next level down

which is Mono sub-faction <Space Marine> <Custard> <IG> ... but that goes to <Dynasty> for Necrons <Sept> for T'au ... etc.

the only way you could is making <CODEX> a keyword where it currently is not in the same fashion as the rule of three with datasheets ... it's ugly and there are Daemon prince sized loopholes.

**BoomWolf**

The issue with all these idea is that:

A-definining "faction" is not an easy thing any more in 8th. if you want to define them you need to have a shopping list of all "factions" out there, and watch out for odd cases like tiny subfactions, or small factions sharing the faction name of a big faction (practically all SM/CSM offshoots), etc.

B-spliting CP sources is just causing needless headache and creates more paperwork in the game. path of the goal is REDUCE paperwork.

You want to solve the CP farming issue quick and simple?
Tie stratagems to warlord.
One warlord, one set of stratagems-you might GENERATE from other sources, but you can't activate anything-so you might want to keep your warlord in the same stratagem group as your bulk of force to make sure you got what to spend said stratagems on.
(also this solves souping the AM relic, because you can't take it unless your primary is AM.)

**Bharring**

Defining Factions is hard. But defining keywords taken from all detatchments isn't as hard.

Now, building a system that properly incentivises mono lists without disincentivising Soup more than it's inherent strengths, that gets really hard.

Unfortunately, 8E doesn't just not incentivise mono lists, it actually incentivises Soup with the core rules. A lot of posts have been made about how to reverse that (my favorite: Detatchemnts cost CP instead of granting them - even Brigade & Batt).

I'd love for both Mono- and Soup- lists to be viable, but it's really hard to do that right.

**vipoid**

Some ideas I had as penalties for allied armies:

- Chapter Tactics (or equivalent traits) only work if your whole army is from the same Codex.

- Your warlord determines your Primary Faction, with all other Factions being Secondary.
- Secondary Factions may not generate CPs by any means.
- You may spend CPs only on rulebook Stratagems and Stratagems from your Primary Faction.
- You may not take Relics from Secondary Factions.

**skchsan**

Battleforged CP bonus only applies if your army is mono faction.

Bump up the CP bonus to 5 CP from 3 CPs.

This will get rid of the need to bring in a battalion of another faction to compensate for the CPs granted.

As for mono-guard lists, they'll have 5 more CP's than now which is not a big deal since they already have more than they can spend.

**Galef**

skchsan wrote:
Battleforged CP bonus only applies if your army is mono faction.

Bump up the CP bonus to 5 CP from 3 CPs.

This will get rid of the need to bring in a battalion of another faction to compensate for the CPs granted.

As for mono-guard lists, they'll have 5 more CP's than now which is not a big deal since they already have more than they can spend.

That's....not bad, actually.
So you only get CPs from detachments if your army is Battle Forged, just as now, but you get more CPs if all you detachments share at least 2 Faction Keywords

It's frustrating how many solutions there are to this issue. Why has the next FAQ or CA not come out yet with at least one of these solutions?

-

**skchsan**

Galef wrote:
skchsan wrote:
Battleforged CP bonus only applies if your army is mono faction.

Bump up the CP bonus to 5 CP from 3 CPs.

This will get rid of the need to bring in a battalion of another faction to compensate for the CPs granted.

As for mono-guard lists, they'll have 5 more CP's than now which is not a big deal since they already have more than they can spend.

That's....not bad, actually.
So you only get CPs from detachments if your army is Battle Forged, just as now, but you get more CPs if all you detachments share at least 2 Faction Keywords

It's frustrating how many solutions there are to this issue. Why has the next FAQ or CA not come out yet with at least one of these solutions?

-

Or most specific faction keyword only i.e. <Chapter> for 5 CP's. If you share [Faction] keyword i.e. Space Marine, then you get 3 CP.

For example, if your dark eldar soup consists of a <Kabal>, <Wych Cult> and <Haemonculus Coven> then you get 3CPs for being battleforged under <Drukhari>
If your Tau army consists of three detachments under the same <Sept>, you get 5 CPs.

**tneva82**

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
So what is your complain?

Hopeyou don't mind I snipped out the rest for the sake of space..

I'm saying that in trying to fix an issue where Imperium players can take the best of .. Nine I think Codexes so far. that you inadvertently bugger up the mono faction codexes.

there's no way to fix something at <FACTION> level ... <IMPERIUM> <CHAOS> <NECRON> etc. are the top line factions, so any rule would need to be the next level down

which is Mono sub-faction <Space Marine> <Custard> <IG> ... but that goes to <Dynasty> for Necrons <Sept> for T'au ... etc.

the only way you could is making <CODEX> a keyword where it currently is not in the same fashion as the rule of three with datasheets ... it's ugly and there are Daemon prince sized loopholes.

But if the benefit you get from sticking with "regiment X" is good enough it discourages heavily from utilizing the Imperium keyword and sticking with mono faction. At which point Ork clan X is at more even ground than now. If opponent combines IG and marines then they have given up the benefit you get which would compensate for the combining of IG and marines.

**Ice_can**

skchsan wrote:
Galef wrote:
skchsan wrote:
Battleforged CP bonus only applies if your army is mono faction.

Bump up the CP bonus to 5 CP from 3 CPs.

This will get rid of the need to bring in a battalion of another faction to compensate for the CPs granted.

As for mono-guard lists, they'll have 5 more CP's than now which is not a big deal since they already have more than they can spend.

That's....not bad, actually.
So you only get CPs from detachments if your army is Battle Forged, just as now, but you get more CPs if all you detachments share at least 2 Faction Keywords

It's frustrating how many solutions there are to this issue. Why has the next FAQ or CA not come out yet with at least one of these solutions?

-
Or most specific faction keyword only i.e. <Chapter> for 5 CP's. If you share [Faction] keyword i.e. Space Marine, then you get 3 CP.

For example, if your dark eldar soup consists of a <Kabal>, <Wych Cult> and <Haemonculus Coven> then you get 3CPs for being battleforged under <Drukhari>
If your Tau army consists of three detachments under the same <Sept>, you get 5 CPs.

The issue is thats not exactly comparable to the Imperial soup stuff
Tau have to take multiple detachments thanks to them getting screwed with a 1 per detachment rule.
Drukari would be super limited in detachments they can take in one Kabal, coven etc due to rule if 3
Not to mention that some of the xeno codex's very much appear ti have been designed with buffs and relics and strategums for subfactions that heavily favour diffrent units.
While choas for example can mix and match marks of choas to unlock double shooting strategums etc while still getting a legion trait aswell. The codex's are clearly not written from a common vision of how subfactions etc are supposed to be balanced or interact.

**jeannedeorleans**

vipoid wrote:
- Chapter Tactics (or equivalent traits) only work if your whole army is from the same Codex.

That would cause a problem with Forge World models though, like Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought doesn't come form any of Heretic Astartes codices. It comes form Imperial Armor: Forces of Chaos

**Galef**

I just had an idea in another thread that CPs could only be used on Stratagems available to the detachment that generated the CPs, rather than just the detachment itself.

So a mono-faction army would have a single pool of CPs available to the whole army, whereas armies with multi-faction detachment would have to track them. Like so:

Galef wrote:
The most effective fix is a 2-fold change:

Reset the CP bonuses for detachments to factory settings (so Battalions go back to 3CPs) and bump Battle Forged to at least 5CP. Now Factions have a more equal way to access CPs. The disparity isn't so wide between Soup factions that can get cheap Battalions and Mono- or themed factions that don't

The second change is to then only allow detachments to use CPs on Stratagems that their detachment has access to only.
Battle Forged CPs can be used for any Stratagems, but detachment CPs should only apply to Strats that come with that detachment.

Note, that this is different than limiting the CPs to detachments specifically. Example:
Blood Angel Battalion +3CP
Blood Angel Outrider +1CP
Guard Battalion +3CPs
Battle Forged +5CPs

This list has a total of 12CPs, but only 5 of those can be used on whatever Strat you want. The 3 Guards CPs can ONLY be used on Guard Strats (or the BRB ones).
So you can potentially spend 8CPs on Guard Strats in the game.
Both Blood Angel Detachments have access to the exact same Strats (both BAs and BRBs) and in this manner, their CPs can be considered in the same "Pool". So you can spend up to 9CPs on BA strats throughout the game on units that are from either BA detahcment

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