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As I understand it, Deamon Princes are mortals ascended to daemonhood by impressing one of the 4 Chaos gods.
Belakor being the first DP and the only DP given powers by all 4. All DPs since have been elevated by a single Chaos god only

However, Perturabo & Lorgar don't have a specific chaos alignment (I don't think), so how did they ascended to daemonhood?
Basically, since Belakor, how does one become an Undivided DP?

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I mean lets start with the Daemon Primarchs not really being daemon princes in a traditional sense. The Primarchs are beings of such immense power/stature/impact that their ascension to daemon primarch can bend the rules a bit. Of course some of them gravitated towards a specific god I.E. Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus but its not to far fetched to believe that Pert and Lorgar were granted the gifts of Daemon Primarch status without having to devote to a singular god as they are still great pieces to have on the board for the great game that chaos plays.

willy277's point is how I have always viewed that issue. The fact that the Primarchs were originally created using portions of Chaos energy allowed them to circumvent the normal rules when it comes to becoming a DP.

 ikeulhu wrote:
willy277's point is how I have always viewed that issue. The fact that the Primarchs were originally created using portions of Chaos energy allowed them to circumvent the normal rules when it comes to becoming a DP.

It's not really about rules, there are no physical law/rule that prevents someone to be elevated by all 4 gods (otherwise, how would Be'lakor exist as a DP). It's just that it is almost impossible to get all 4 gods to cooperate, due to their very nature. And I guess that Primarchs are "juicy" enough so that they would agree to compromise (rather than cooperate) on that matter, as long as each god gets at least one exclusive primarch (which is the case).

Good spot! This would seem to be inconsistent with the lore about Daemon princes of Chaos Undivided not being created.

I suppose we must assume an exception was made in these cases which is weird, whilst I can understand Lorgar being lauded by all the chaos gods I can't say the same about Perturabo...

 Kroem wrote:
Good spot! This would seem to be inconsistent with the lore about Daemon princes of Chaos Undivided not being created.

I suppose we must assume an exception was made in these cases which is weird, whilst I can understand Lorgar being lauded by all the chaos gods I can't say the same about Perturabo...

The lore is a retcon though. Up until relatively recently you could give your DP the mark of chaos undivided ingame.

Perturabo I can see being aligned to a single Chaos God, which one is the best suit I am not sure. Perhaps he is elevated by a lesser known power? There is something in the latest book Slaves to Darkness that made me think this. I also had an idea that perhaps he didn't become a Daemon Prince after all. Usually when the traitor Primarchs are mentioned they are the 'Daemon Primarchs' but in the Death Guard Codex he is simply Perturabo. This is unlikely though. After the Iron Cage he offers up the Gene-seed taken from the slain Imperial Fists and gains ascension. Got the idea of how the ritual is carried out from Fulgrim perhaps?

Lorgar is tricky and a solid candidate for Undivided. Would he offer himself up to single power, I don't think so. Maybe it's like willy277 says, he does enough to gain favour with each power to gain ascension, but Be'lakor fluff goes against this. Or, he forces their hand/tentacles/claws. He knows enough ritual probably to force the Gods to do the deed.

In a way Undivided must be hard to pull off and kinda doesn't make a lot of sense. I can kinda see why GW have tried to move away from the idea, even though Undivided is cool.

Engrenages wrote:
It's not really about rules, there are no physical law/rule that prevents someone to be elevated by all 4 gods (otherwise, how would Be'lakor exist as a DP). It's just that it is almost impossible to get all 4 gods to cooperate, due to their very nature. And I guess that Primarchs are "juicy" enough so that they would agree to compromise (rather than cooperate) on that matter, as long as each god gets at least one exclusive primarch (which is the case).

The issue I've always had with this is that Belakor's lore in 40K has always said that he is the ONLY DP elevated by all the Chaos gods. After Belakor, the 4 decided to never coopt power like that ever again.
I guess I can see these 2 "bending the rules" and being elevated by the power of Chaos itself, rather than any of the 4 main powers.

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I know it's not about any actual rules or laws and was pointing out the fact that the Primarch's are already potentially invested with power that may have come from all four of the Ruinous Powers, which allows them to be exceptions to the whole "The Chaos Gods stopped empowering Undivided DP's after Be'lakor" clause. The Chaos Gods lost most of their choice in the matter when they decided to hand out their candy to the Emperor. I view Undivided DP Primarchs as more of a potential evolution of the Chaos power the Emperor put into the Primarchs as opposed to an active choice by the Ruinous Powers themselves.

 ikeulhu wrote:
I know it's not about any actual rules or laws and was pointing out the fact that the Primarch's are already potentially invested with power that may have come from all four of the Ruinous Powers, which allows them to be exceptions to the whole "The Chaos Gods stopped empowering Undivided DP's after Be'lakor" clause.

Well, what I say to that is-

Something, something, wibbly wobbly timey-wimey. vagaries of the warp...

Be'lakor, due to warp fethery could have been created after Perty and Lorgar ascended, but due to the nature of Chaos once he came into existence, he has always existed. (Much like how Slaanesh, despite having only existed for approx 10,000 years in the 40k timeline is present across all of time and space in the multiverse). There's always been snippets of evidence of this, such as the Daemon in Archaon's sword sharing the same (true) name with Skulltaker (though said daemon in the blade is a Greater Daemon, is future Skulltaker bound into the slayer of kings?) and in the recent novel Lords of Silence (which I've totally not read, BTW. ) Mortarion when addressing some of his subordinates has to correct himself that in realspace Gulliman has not been resurrected yet. He was talking about a future event as if it had already happened.

Just something to consider.

Thanx for all the comments everyone.

I think I have a better understanding, or at least a clearly head canon.
I think combined with the Primarchs being "tainted" by Chaos when they were scattered from Terra and being special, it seems possible for any one of them to ascend under the right conditions without winning favor from any particular god.
That would somewhat reconcile the contraction in Belokor's fluff. Pert & Lorgar weren't elevated by group effort by the 4 gods like Belakor, but ascended to daemonhood with their own unique connection to Chaos as a whole.

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Woah that's some pretty Soul Reaver-esque time/ causality thought experiments there!

Like you said, if the lore is a retcon then the explanation is simple. Bad writing!

I'm honestly hoping we get an answer to this down the road

Lorgar I get since he was the first and in some ways most dedicated of the primarchs to the active worship of all four gods. Perturabo was always a weird one for me other than GW wanting all the living traitor primarchs to have achieved demonhood. The Iron Warriors are noted as not being all that big into active chaos worship and nothing in the HH really explains why Perturabo would even want it..

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Lorgar I get since he was the first and in some ways most dedicated of the primarchs to the active worship of all four gods. Perturabo was always a weird one for me other than GW wanting all the living traitor primarchs to have achieved demonhood. The Iron Warriors are noted as not being all that big into active chaos worship and nothing in the HH really explains why Perturabo would even want it..

how many of the current deamon primarchs specificly WANTED it though?

Fulgrim, Lorgar and Angron (kinda sorta in the IDC kinda of way) seemed willing enough

Magnus never wanted any of this but accepted it in the end

Mortarian definitely did not but also didn't have a choice in the end

Horus and Curze are dead, and who knows with the Alpha Legion.

So roughly half.

Honestly I think it's just a case of bad retcon.
Perturabo and Lorgar have been Daemon Primarchs in the fluff long before Belakor was ported to 40K. Belakor came to 40k in 6th edition and then was said to be the only undivided DP. At the same time GW did away with the mark of Chaos undivided in the codex.
Btw. if Abaddon had ascended to Daemonhood he'd also be a DP of all 4 gods as he bears all 4 marks. But Abaddon doesn't want to ascend yet.
Now there's obviously a continuity error GW hasn't solved yet.

This is just personal preference, but I preferred the old fluff where chaos undivided was fairly common and not just among mortals but also to an extent among daemons.

Have the events of the Iron Cage and the time period shortly thereafter ever been written about in detail in any of the novels? I know the basics of the story, but I haven't read any novels about the Iron Cage incident and Perturabo's ascension to daemonhood.

I'm betting that Perturabo will become the Techno-Virus themed Daemon Primarch. It was already listed in the Death Guard codex that he and Mortarion worked together on perfecting the Obliterator Virus. IMO, Perturabo is marked by Nurgle, whether he knows it or not. (Perty should be like a super Obliterator.)

I'm also thinking some kind of mettalic detritus, and scabs of oozing metallic blood would be a new twist for Nurgle and Iron Within mantra.

I want more Obliterators!

 Galef wrote:
As I understand it, Deamon Princes are mortals ascended to daemonhood by impressing one of the 4 Chaos gods.
Belakor being the first DP and the only DP given powers by all 4. All DPs since have been elevated by a single Chaos god only

However, Perturabo & Lorgar don't have a specific chaos alignment (I don't think), so how did they ascended to daemonhood?
Basically, since Belakor, how does one become an Undivided DP?

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Well the Chaos gods can bestow power onto people, I imagine it happens in similar regard as to how Horus got his powers. Horus got powers from all four gods in a single point in time, when he went to Molech. So we know the gods can bestow powers together at one time. Though with the lore of Lords of Silence novel says that they are possessed by daemons so that throws a wrench in the cog. I doubt they are possessed by multiple daemons.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm betting that Perturabo will become the Techno-Virus themed Daemon Primarch. It was already listed in the Death Guard codex that he and Mortarion worked together on perfecting the Obliterator Virus. IMO, Perturabo is marked by Nurgle, whether he knows it or not. (Perty should be like a super Obliterator.)

I don't like that theory as it give Nurgle more than the others.
I like the idea that each god got 1 exclusion Primarch. It has nice symmetry
It also has nice symmetry for Lorgar to be blessed by all, but Pert to be blessed by none.

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Couldn't they simple be marked by two or more gods, but not by all four of them?
Chaos Gods aren't good at sharing, I suppose that two Gods bestowing power on someone will result in an Undivided Prince (and that will cover also the oldest lore easily).

Perturabo could be marked by Nurgle and Tzeentch, Lorgar also by Slaanesh.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm betting that Perturabo will become the Techno-Virus themed Daemon Primarch. It was already listed in the Death Guard codex that he and Mortarion worked together on perfecting the Obliterator Virus. IMO, Perturabo is marked by Nurgle, whether he knows it or not. (Perty should be like a super Obliterator.)

I'm also thinking some kind of mettalic detritus, and scabs of oozing metallic blood would be a new twist for Nurgle and Iron Within mantra.

I want more Obliterators!

I haven't read the DG codex. So Obliterators are back to being the result of a daemonic virus? They've gone back and forth on that over the years.

I can't remember where this happened, but IIRC Perturabo unleashed a daemonic plague on a forge world that resulted in manufactorums turning into moving daemonic beings. Maybe the creation of the obliterator virus has been rolled into that?

The Iron Warriors also had a relationship with Khorne in some of the past fluff. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, while having a reputation for being extremely cold and logical, have had problems with flying into fits of rage. There used to be bits of fluff about the psychological effect of constant siege warfare on the legion. Basically it was long periods of sitting behind fortifications and being shelled so frequently that even that became boring in a way, and then brief periods of extreme action and violence where the Iron Warriors would show no mercy to those who had made them suffer through the siege. Some Iron Warriors would become unhinged, living for those moments of going over the top and slaughtering the enemy. Some of those would fall to Khorne after the Heresy. It used to be represented by Iron Warriors being allowed to take a single unit of Berserkers, but no other cult units. Kroeger was the most prominent example in the fluff, but mosted of the other Iron Warriors mistrusted and looked down on him for it.

I think if you go waaaay back the Iron Warriors we're originally devoted to Slaanesh, but that was before my text and has been thoroughly retconned out of existence. Perturabo did pursue perfection in a way, but not quite in a way that I think fits with Slaanesh.

From what I've read about Perturabo it wouldn't seem fitting for him to willingly bend the knee to any one god. I guess they could make the story that he got duped, but I'd find that a little disappointing. I like how each legion interacts with Chaos and daemons in a somewhat different manner. Iron Warriors are all for using chaos as a tool to further their goals, but look down on those who end up becoming tools themselves. Of course, play with fire and you're going to get burned and all that.

I think that The Warsmith/Barban Falk became a Daemon Prince that was Undivided, but it's been a long time since I read the Storm of Iron books.

 Cybtroll wrote:
Couldn't they simple be marked by two or more gods, but not by all four of them?
Chaos Gods aren't good at sharing, I suppose that two Gods bestowing power on someone will result in an Undivided Prince (and that will cover also the oldest lore easily).

Perturabo could be marked by Nurgle and Tzeentch, Lorgar also by Slaanesh.

The thing is if they are marked by one god, they are controlled by that god, therefore they aren't undivided. They'd have to be marked by all or none, plus if one god marks them and they are undevided so they go against that god, the god is going to be like 'hang on a minute, give me pack the powers I give you then.'

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:


I think that The Warsmith/Barban Falk became a Daemon Prince that was Undivided, but it's been a long time since I read the Storm of Iron books.

Depends how you interpret some of his powers based on when the book was written. He's either Slaaneshi or Tzeentchian as he turns the Mechanicus guy into a spawn. Fleshy Curse was an exclusively Slaanesh power in the 3rd ed. CSM dex (and before), yet Gift of Chaos (in the 3.5 dex, written at maybe the same time as Storm of Iron) was a power available to everyone.

I'd lean towards Slaanesh due to his somewhat decadent behavior and the gorging on the geneseed, but we have all of the eye-hurting change of his armour which can imply Tzeentch a little to me. Boy, McNeill really left that one open to interpretation.

Maybe undivided are given daemonhood by one god but there is an agreement between the gods that they let them be unafiliated on the agreement that the other gods do the same. That's the only reason I can think of if Daemon princes are in fact possessed. I don't see them having multiple possessions as I'm aware that's never happened before. If Daemon princes aren't possessed then I'd just assume they are gifted by all the gods, its the only way they could be undivided. Otherwise undivided daemon princes wouldn't be undivided as the god that possessed them would demand that they serve them rather than the best scenario for chaos. Though the gods do act in best interests for chaos sometimes. The bloodthirster that stopped Kharn from fighting Abaddon is one case, If Kharn beat him Kharn Chaos would have a hard time, as Kharn as fantastically insane and amazing at fighting is, isn't the best leader seeing that he goes and fights by himself in suicide missions where the odds are a million to one. He can't even lead his own Legionaries as he doesn't care about them in the slightest.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm betting that Perturabo will become the Techno-Virus themed Daemon Primarch. It was already listed in the Death Guard codex that he and Mortarion worked together on perfecting the Obliterator Virus. IMO, Perturabo is marked by Nurgle, whether he knows it or not. (Perty should be like a super Obliterator.)

You do have a point here and there does seem to be a connection to this mentioned in Slaves to Darkness. I thought that this might be a lesser known Chaos power but it does seem to be affiliated with Nurgle as the sevenfold path is mentioned, as is the sixfold, I guess being Slaanesh, which apparently has made Perturabo weaker since Iydris.

In the 7th Ed Chaos Codex it's mentioned

P30 The Tyrants of Medrengard:
This planet sized stronghold is the Domain of the Primarch Perturabo - Reincarnated as a mighty Daemon Prince by the Ruinous Powers that guide him.

P38 Word Bearers

As the atrocities carried out in the name of devotion rose to new heights, Lorgar was rewarded by his patrons with the gift of daemonhood. Finally, he truly was the equal of a God, and the birth scream of this newest Daemon Primarch was said by Astropaths to have echoed through the Warp with triumphant vindication.

Slaves Darkness seems to also change the nature of the Techno Virus, but then maybe not.

Non-aligned daemons being a collaboration between 2 or 3 gods, but not all 4, does make some sense, and fits within the fluff for Belakor. Lorgar should be all 4 though.

I can see Perturabo being Slurgle.

In my view, it's kind of a mistake to view the Chaos Gods as individual entities that make conscious decisions to begin with. I like to think of them as a fundamental force of nature, like gravity for instance. Saturn's gravity didn't "decide" to acrete a bunch of leftover space dust into a disc for instance. The moon's gravity doesn't "decide" to pull Earth's oceans into bulges. These things just happen because the fundamental conditions that allow them to exist. I know there are instances of characters interacting with each "God" on an individual basis, but I view this as more of that character's interpretation of its own experience with the nature of the Immaterium. Likewise, if you decide to go romping around the warp, I don't think you'll find a giant, angry, red guy sitting on a throne of skulls, baying for blood. That is just the visual given by those who worship that particular aspect of the nature of Chaos. Therefore, I don't think Khorne ever "decided" to ascend Angron to Daemonhood, but rather, it was Angron's own Chaotic and violent nature that lent him towards deriving great power from that aspect of the Immaterium. Therfore, it is merely the nature of Perturabo and Lorgar that allow them to derive power from all aspects of Chaos.

tl;dr: Don't mind me. I've no idea what I'm talking about really.

Perturabo should be the Daemon Primarch Of The soul Forge