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So, as the title suggests, how can we fix this mess of a model so that it can be a viable choice for Tau players to consider?

I've heard a number of suggestions, for example:

1. Make seeker missiles D3 mortal wounds.
2. Make seeker missiles multi-use instead of OUO.
3. Change the entire profile of the missiles (Examples below)
- Ex. Seeker Missiles Heavy 2D6 48" S6 AP-3 D:2 [A wound roll of a 6+ results in an additional D3 mortal wounds.]
- Ex. Seeker Missiles Heavy D3 70" S10 AP-3 D: d3 [A wound roll of a 6+ results in an additional D3 mortal wounds.]
4. Allow the Skyray to "reload" missiles of the current ruleset Ex: At the beginning of the movement phase, the skyray Missile Ship may reload its stock of Seeker Missiles. In stead of moving replenish D3 missiles.
5. Allow the Skyray to purchase -1 to hit (stealth fields)

So, do any of these ideas sound useful? Are they plausible, how would you change them, and why would they need changed.

Let's discuss it and see if we can MSGA!

Currently they really aren't THAT bad. I kind of enjoy using mine.

I think just giving it the ability to reload missile would make it a top teir option. Just have it reload 2 missiles per turn (without paying additional cost)

So turn 1 you fire 6 missles - turn 2 you fire 2 missiles. Then make a stratagem that cost 1 CP. That does a complete missile reload.

All in all they don't seem that bad tbh. Dumping 6 krak missiles, hitting on 2s rerolling 1s in one turn is pretty good (yay markerlights). It's just that afterwards they become a paperweight. So maybe expanding their usefulness somehow would do the trick.

I had a thought some time ago of giving them a transport capacity, like 6 models.
Or just give the seeker missiles a little more punch, like S9. Or 3d3 damage.

The skyray is currently quite good. It can reliably kill its worth in points, especially if you buff it with markerlights. It then is basically a 2+1 to hit vs flyers. The 3+ markerlights is nice, and after it breaks even, it becomes a big bullwt sponge, objective grabbing support craft that is a good road bump that isn’t worth shooting at, but can be annoying enough to force attention.

I think skyrays are pretty good tbh.

 Jaxler wrote:
The skyray is currently quite good. It can reliably kill its worth in points, especially if you buff it with markerlights. It then is basically a 2+1 to hit vs flyers. The 3+ markerlights is nice, and after it breaks even, it becomes a big bullwt sponge, objective grabbing support craft that is a good road bump that isn’t worth shooting at, but can be annoying enough to force attention.

I think skyrays are pretty good tbh.

Yeah - 2+ to hit SMS systems and 2+ markerlights on fly targets is still pretty decent after turn 1 missle dump. I think all it needs is some missile regeneration ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The skyray is currently quite good. It can reliably kill its worth in points, especially if you buff it with markerlights. It then is basically a 2+1 to hit vs flyers. The 3+ markerlights is nice, and after it breaks even, it becomes a big bullwt sponge, objective grabbing support craft that is a good road bump that isn’t worth shooting at, but can be annoying enough to force attention.

I think skyrays are pretty good tbh.

Yeah - 2+ to hit SMS systems and 2+ markerlights on fly targets is still pretty decent after turn 1 missle dump. I think all it needs is some missile regeneration ability.

If it could, I fear it’d be a better hammerhead for less. I’d honestly just give it the +1 ap system.

A stratagem to reload might be good though, it’d limit it to only one reload a turn, hopefully, which would keep us from seeing them spammed.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
The skyray is currently quite good. It can reliably kill its worth in points, especially if you buff it with markerlights. It then is basically a 2+1 to hit vs flyers. The 3+ markerlights is nice, and after it breaks even, it becomes a big bullwt sponge, objective grabbing support craft that is a good road bump that isn’t worth shooting at, but can be annoying enough to force attention.

I think skyrays are pretty good tbh.

Yeah - 2+ to hit SMS systems and 2+ markerlights on fly targets is still pretty decent after turn 1 missle dump. I think all it needs is some missile regeneration ability.

If it could, I fear it’d be a better hammerhead for less. I’d honestly just give it the +1 ap system.

That would be really nice too. Plus make giving SMS even more attractive.

Strange. From what I gather from the Tau community, it's a garbage rule set.

It's highly situational, requiring you to have maximum results with marker lights. Then, once it has spilled its load, it's just a paper weight with no value whatsoever.

Also, the rule of 3 will keep them from being spammed, so I don't think that will be an issue.

 Togusa wrote:
Strange. From what I gather from the Tau community, it's a garbage rule set.

It's highly situational, requiring you to have maximum results with marker lights. Then, once it has spilled its load, it's just a paper weight with no value whatsoever.

Also, the rule of 3 will keep them from being spammed, so I don't think that will be an issue.

I think It is a very nice complement with 3 hammer heads and long strike.

Marker drones go down quick. Skyrays take quite a bit to take down. So basically it means I have marker lights all game. It keeps the dream alive really. As long as a skyray is alive - you are capable "with some luck" of getting 5 markers on a target. Also - to be able to get reroll 1's on 2 targets. Plus I usually put the girl in position to make crucial tie up charges.

Like I said it needs a little something to make it more attractive - not much. As pointed out from my friend above - even regenerating 2 missiles a turn it is at risk of becoming better than a hammerhead and costing less. I think that is the perfect fix - but giving it advanced targeting system (an additional -1 AP) Each one of those missles is now basially a lascannon shot. Plus your 8 shots str 5 become a lot more deadly.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Strange. From what I gather from the Tau community, it's a garbage rule set.

It's highly situational, requiring you to have maximum results with marker lights. Then, once it has spilled its load, it's just a paper weight with no value whatsoever.

Also, the rule of 3 will keep them from being spammed, so I don't think that will be an issue.

I think It is a very nice complement with 3 hammer heads and long strike.

Marker drones go down quick. Skyrays take quite a bit to take down. So basically it means I have marker lights all game. It keeps the dream alive really. As long as a skyray is alive - you are capable "with some luck" of getting 5 markers on a target. Also - to be able to get reroll 1's on 2 targets. Plus I usually put the girl in position to make crucial tie up charges.

Like I said it needs a little something to make it more attractive - not much. As pointed out from my friend above - even regenerating 2 missiles a turn it is at risk of becoming better than a hammerhead and costing less. I think that is the perfect fix - but giving it advanced targeting system (an additional -1 AP) Each one of those missles is now basially a lascannon shot. Plus your 8 shots str 5 become a lot more deadly.

That assumes that hammerheads are worth fielding in the first place which if your really honest about it they aren't, atleast not without longstrike and even then a LRMBT is better for less.

Also I love how everyones saying they hit on a 2+ rerolling ones yeah they don't do that unless it's a flying target, which you have yo shoot all 6 missiles at turn 1 or at 6 different targets turn 1. It's a victim of the shooting phase rules being bad, but even if they were better it is still not a great unit for its points but it would atleast be a workable set of rules.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Strange. From what I gather from the Tau community, it's a garbage rule set.

It's highly situational, requiring you to have maximum results with marker lights. Then, once it has spilled its load, it's just a paper weight with no value whatsoever.

Also, the rule of 3 will keep them from being spammed, so I don't think that will be an issue.

I think It is a very nice complement with 3 hammer heads and long strike.

Marker drones go down quick. Skyrays take quite a bit to take down. So basically it means I have marker lights all game. It keeps the dream alive really. As long as a skyray is alive - you are capable "with some luck" of getting 5 markers on a target. Also - to be able to get reroll 1's on 2 targets. Plus I usually put the girl in position to make crucial tie up charges.

Like I said it needs a little something to make it more attractive - not much. As pointed out from my friend above - even regenerating 2 missiles a turn it is at risk of becoming better than a hammerhead and costing less. I think that is the perfect fix - but giving it advanced targeting system (an additional -1 AP) Each one of those missles is now basially a lascannon shot. Plus your 8 shots str 5 become a lot more deadly.

That assumes that hammerheads are worth fielding in the first place which if your really honest about it they aren't, atleast not without longstrike and even then a LRMBT is better for less.

Also I love how everyones saying they hit on a 2+ rerolling ones yeah they don't do that unless it's a flying target, which you have yo shoot all 6 missiles at turn 1 or at 6 different targets turn 1. It's a victim of the shooting phase rules being bad, but even if they were better it is still not a great unit for its points but it would atleast be a workable set of rules.

See here I disagree again though. I always bring two HH and they have never been nothing but an absolute beast of a model to bring.

I suppose this is where it really depends on your opponents and what your aiming to get from your games.
T7 3+Sv is nothing special, when people tool for destroying a knight or magnus or morti in a single round of shooting you should be loosing both Turn 1, against a semi competative list.

Where is 2+ to hit coming from?

 Peregrine wrote:
Where is 2+ to hit coming from?

Has to be referring to either having 5 markerlights on a target (BS 3+ with +1 to hit buff from 5 lights), or maybe Velocity Tracker giving it +1 to hit vs. a target that can FLY (but is not a supersonic flyer, so no -1 to offset this).

a) in every turn it gets 6 shots. dmg profile/rules remains as it currently is.
b) it can only fire 6 shots for the whole game but each missile does D6 mortal wounds.

adjust point costs as needed.

That would make it an ultra alpha strike model, which is bad for the game.

Even in the current incarnation it is somewhat wrong as a concept, everything that unloads turn 1 is wrong.

I think that it should be changed to be able to use only 2 missiles per turn, then adjust the model from there. It becomes similar to a manticore.

Spoletta wrote:
That would make it an ultra alpha strike model, which is bad for the game.

Even in the current incarnation it is somewhat wrong as a concept, everything that unloads turn 1 is wrong.

I think that it should be changed to be able to use only 2 missiles per turn, then adjust the model from there. It becomes similar to a manticore.

I agree with this though I'd make it 3 missiles per turn and still drop it's cost by about 20pts (that would make it around 140 I think so equivelant to a tripple lance Ravager).

I heartily disagree with the mortal wounds option. IMHO Seeker missiles should not ignore armour and field saves. Besides that would make them destroyer missiles not seeker missiles.

I like the 3 missile per turn option. The Whirlwind basically does 2 per turn with no limit.

As an and/or what if seeker missiles did D3 hits each. I know that Seeker missile forgo a large blast for penetration, but what about a small blast. Of course adjust points accordingly.

Easiest solution right now is to add the following(in italics) to the Seeker+Destroyer Missile buff on the Markerlights table:

Destroyer and Seeker Missiles fired at this unit use the firing model's Ballistic Skill(and any modifiers) rather than only hitting on a 6 and treat any To Wound roll of 6s causes a Mortal Wound in addition to its normal damage. Additionally, Seeker Missiles ignore results of 1 or 2 their rolls to determine damage.

It would be a good idea for them to swap the #2(seeker+destroyers) with the #4 at that point though.

I believe I’d replace the Seeker Missile with Seeker Missile Array; make it a Heavy 2, uses normal BS (+ inflict 1 mortal wound on a Wound roll of 6) and loses One Use Only. (This assumes the Seeker Missile Array has a built-in marker light targeting system)

Add a stratagem “Saturation Strike” for 2 CP that allows you to change the profile to Heavy 6, usable once per game.

As an aside, I think it would be interesting if Markerlights were moved from being fired in the Shooting phase to being used in the Psychic phase, and could be used in addition to normal shooting instead of replacing normal shooting. The timing of using markerlights (after your shooting, in preparation for the next turn) would be tactically interesting (the opponent has a chance to attempt to screen targets being marked before they’re shot), and it would give the Tau something to do in the Psychic phase.

 Stormonu wrote:
I believe I’d replace the Seeker Missile with Seeker Missile Array; make it a Heavy 2, uses normal BS (+ inflict 1 mortal wound on a Wound roll of 6) and loses One Use Only. (This assumes the Seeker Missile Array has a built-in marker light targeting system)

Add a stratagem “Saturation Strike” for 2 CP that allows you to change the profile to Heavy 6, usable once per game.

As an aside, I think it would be interesting if Markerlights were moved from being fired in the Shooting phase to being used in the Psychic phase, and could be used in addition to normal shooting instead of replacing normal shooting. The timing of using markerlights (after your shooting, in preparation for the next turn) would be tactically interesting (the opponent has a chance to attempt to screen targets being marked before they’re shot), and it would give the Tau something to do in the Psychic phase.

See to me this make some of the most sense. Making the skyray more like a missile carrier, and less like a manticor would make it a much more attractive choice. In this case you wouldn't even need the mortal wounds.

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

 Togusa wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I believe I’d replace the Seeker Missile with Seeker Missile Array; make it a Heavy 2, uses normal BS (+ inflict 1 mortal wound on a Wound roll of 6) and loses One Use Only. (This assumes the Seeker Missile Array has a built-in marker light targeting system)

Add a stratagem “Saturation Strike” for 2 CP that allows you to change the profile to Heavy 6, usable once per game.

As an aside, I think it would be interesting if Markerlights were moved from being fired in the Shooting phase to being used in the Psychic phase, and could be used in addition to normal shooting instead of replacing normal shooting. The timing of using markerlights (after your shooting, in preparation for the next turn) would be tactically interesting (the opponent has a chance to attempt to screen targets being marked before they’re shot), and it would give the Tau something to do in the Psychic phase.

See to me this make some of the most sense. Making the skyray more like a missile carrier, and less like a manticor would make it a much more attractive choice. In this case you wouldn't even need the mortal wounds.

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Tygre wrote:
I heartily disagree with the mortal wounds option. IMHO Seeker missiles should not ignore armour and field saves. Besides that would make them destroyer missiles not seeker missiles.

At least, no more than the Krak Missiles do, anyway.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Eh, Heavy 2 was more of a fluff choice - shooting one from each “wing”.

 Togusa wrote:

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

I probably forgot to mention it, but this change would remove the “use markerlights instead of shooting any other weapon”. It’s better to me than a unit “wasting” its shooting phase aiming marker lights; Pathfinders and the like can do something other than aim for other units and the delay to the psychic phase means that Markerlights can’t be used as an alpha strike in the 1st turn. Since the Tau will never have a psychic phase, this gives them something alternately to do.

Example: group of Pathfinders w/ markerlights and heavy weapons. The squad moves into position and shoots the 1st turn. In the psychic phase, they use their markerlights to mark a few targets. Next turn, the Pathfinders shoot the marked targets with whatever bonus they have gained. Afterwards, they mark a new target for the next round, and so forth.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Yeah heavy 2 is too weak. That's why I said heavy3. Also I think it would be cool if it could also take 2 addition seeker missles like an ion head and launch those adiditonally as 1 time use. Pred annihilator costs 190 points - has less wounds - no fly key word - no velocity tracker - it should have more firepower.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Yeah heavy 2 is too weak. That's why I said heavy3. Also I think it would be cool if it could also take 2 addition seeker missles like an ion head and launch those adiditonally as 1 time use. Pred annihilator costs 190 points - has less wounds - no fly key word - no velocity tracker - it should have more firepower.

He wasn't talking about a predator, he was talking about a Leman russ annihilator which gets 4 lascannon shoots from ita turret alone, plus a hull mount weapon is T8 14 W and starts at 170 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Eh, Heavy 2 was more of a fluff choice - shooting one from each “wing”.

 Togusa wrote:

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

I probably forgot to mention it, but this change would remove the “use markerlights instead of shooting any other weapon”. It’s better to me than a unit “wasting” its shooting phase aiming marker lights; Pathfinders and the like can do something other than aim for other units and the delay to the psychic phase means that Markerlights can’t be used as an alpha strike in the 1st turn. Since the Tau will never have a psychic phase, this gives them something alternately to do.

Example: group of Pathfinders w/ markerlights and heavy weapons. The squad moves into position and shoots the 1st turn. In the psychic phase, they use their markerlights to mark a few targets. Next turn, the Pathfinders shoot the marked targets with whatever bonus they have gained. Afterwards, they mark a new target for the next round, and so forth.

Unless your slashing the cost of the vehicle Heavy 2 is not enough to make it worth taking.

As to the psychic phase stuff, your example would make Tau borderline unplayable against any will played list.
Also it is based upon an incorrect assumption Tau do get a psychic phase in thier own turn they just don't have anything to do during that phase.
Additionally you do know that you can split fire in 8th and it's not like pathfinders with heavy weapons have markerlights either.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Because the LR Annihilator costs more, doesn't fly and most of all has BS 4+? But sure, Heavy 2 is too weak, i agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Has 12 wounds.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Eh, Heavy 2 was more of a fluff choice - shooting one from each “wing”.

 Togusa wrote:

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

I probably forgot to mention it, but this change would remove the “use markerlights instead of shooting any other weapon”. It’s better to me than a unit “wasting” its shooting phase aiming marker lights; Pathfinders and the like can do something other than aim for other units and the delay to the psychic phase means that Markerlights can’t be used as an alpha strike in the 1st turn. Since the Tau will never have a psychic phase, this gives them something alternately to do.

Example: group of Pathfinders w/ markerlights and heavy weapons. The squad moves into position and shoots the 1st turn. In the psychic phase, they use their markerlights to mark a few targets. Next turn, the Pathfinders shoot the marked targets with whatever bonus they have gained. Afterwards, they mark a new target for the next round, and so forth.

I get that, but again it doesn't make sense. The laser has to stay on for the designation to do its job. You can't just point the laser at the target, then turn it off and expect a missile to hit it 3 minutes later. Personally, I'd say just get rid of the psychich phase all together, print spells directly on the models stat card, and have different spells usable at different times. Problem solved for everyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Because Tau can't take predators or Leman Russ?

It's nice to compare models, but your point is totally moot when those models do not even exist in my codex...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Because the LR Annihilator costs more, doesn't fly and most of all has BS 4+? But sure, Heavy 2 is too weak, i agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Questionably cool, and utter trash rules-wise. A Heavy 2 krak missile is a joke as the main gun on a tank. Compare that to the Heavy 4 lascannon on a LR Annihilator and why would you even consider taking the Sky Ray?

Yeah heavy 2 is too weak. That's why I said heavy3. Also I think it would be cool if it could also take 2 addition seeker missles like an ion head and launch those adiditonally as 1 time use. Pred annihilator costs 190 points - has less wounds - no fly key word - no velocity tracker - it should have more firepower.

He wasn't talking about a predator, he was talking about a Leman russ annihilator which gets 4 lascannon shoots from ita turret alone, plus a hull mount weapon is T8 14 W and starts at 170 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

That would be pretty cool. That is a 1 point stratagem though and it should be heavy3 on the rockets.

Eh, Heavy 2 was more of a fluff choice - shooting one from each “wing”.

 Togusa wrote:

Markerlights in the Psychic phase doesn't really make much sense to me. Since they're laser designators, you need to keep them on the target until the target is hit, so why would you point at them in the psychic phase, and then stop and shoot at them in the shooting phase?

I probably forgot to mention it, but this change would remove the “use markerlights instead of shooting any other weapon”. It’s better to me than a unit “wasting” its shooting phase aiming marker lights; Pathfinders and the like can do something other than aim for other units and the delay to the psychic phase means that Markerlights can’t be used as an alpha strike in the 1st turn. Since the Tau will never have a psychic phase, this gives them something alternately to do.

Example: group of Pathfinders w/ markerlights and heavy weapons. The squad moves into position and shoots the 1st turn. In the psychic phase, they use their markerlights to mark a few targets. Next turn, the Pathfinders shoot the marked targets with whatever bonus they have gained. Afterwards, they mark a new target for the next round, and so forth.

Unless your slashing the cost of the vehicle Heavy 2 is not enough to make it worth taking.

As to the psychic phase stuff, your example would make Tau borderline unplayable against any will played list.
Also it is based upon an incorrect assumption Tau do get a psychic phase in thier own turn they just don't have anything to do during that phase.
Additionally you do know that you can split fire in 8th and it's not like pathfinders with heavy weapons have markerlights either.

Has 12 wounds.

I still think Heavy D3+1 would be nice and smooth and take away OUO. I mean they're not even that powerful of missiles as written. 4 Marines with Missile launchers do the same thing basically don't they?

Hey, don't worry, at least the latest Errata made it so you don't have to pump out all 6 missiles at once, so that's a buff all on its own!