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Here we go!

My opponent spends 2 CPs on a Stratgem. I spend my 4 CPs on Vect to stop him.

I decide to 'farm' this spending of CPs for this battle round using Drukari warlord trait Labyrinthine Cunning.

a. Am I rolling 4 dice, 2 or the combined 6 dice for Labyrinthine Cunning?
b. If I roll three s out of, let's say the 4 dice for my Agents of Vect CPs that I spent, do I regain three CPs?
c. Or because 6 CPs were spent, can I gain 6 CPs if my dice are ungodly lucky?

Please keep this mess of assorted clauses in mind for your deliberations:

"This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the
ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but
once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points
until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

Let the Salt begin!

 Brothererekose wrote:
Here we go!

My opponent spends 2 CPs on a Stratgem. I spend my 4 CPs on Vect to stop him.

I decide to 'farm' this spending of CPs for this battle round using Drukari warlord trait Labyrinthine Cunning.

a. Am I rolling 4 dice, 2 or the combined 6 dice for Labyrinthine Cunning?
b. If I roll three s out of, let's say the 4 dice for my Agents of Vect CPs that I spent, do I regain three CPs?
c. Or because 6 CPs were spent, can I gain 6 CPs if my dice are ungodly lucky?

Please keep this mess of assorted clauses in mind for your deliberations:

"This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the
ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but
once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points
until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

Let the Salt begin!

I am not seeing the problem here. Both the Warlord Trait and AoV stratagem happen when the command points are "spent". Due to sequencing, whoever turn it is decides the order they are resolved. Either way, they all occur regardless of the order you resolve them. The Command Points are still spent, even if they get later refunded or nullified. You'll roll 6 dice, and be able to regain a maximum of 1 CP. You get 6 attempts to get a maximum of 1 CP refunded.

To spell it out in full:
Opponent plays a 2CP Stratagem
Agents of Vect triggers, and two instances of Labyrinthine Cunning (A for opponents stratagem and B for AoV) all trigger .
You resolve Agents of Vect, getting a 3 and nullifying the stratagem and refunding their CP.
You resolve the A instance of Labyrinthine Cunning, rolling 2 dice and getting a 1 and a 4. No CP are gained.
You resolve the B instance of Labyrinthine Cunning, rolling 4 dice and getting a 6, 6, 6, and 7 (one of the dice split in half).
You regain 1 CP due to the Tactical Restraint limitation, and cannot gain any more CP other than the explicit exceptions listed in the Tactical Restraint rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
Here we go!

My opponent spends 2 CPs on a Stratgem. I spend my 4 CPs on Vect to stop him.

I decide to 'farm' this spending of CPs for this battle round using Drukari warlord trait Labyrinthine Cunning.

a. Am I rolling 4 dice, 2 or the combined 6 dice for Labyrinthine Cunning?
b. If I roll three s out of, let's say the 4 dice for my Agents of Vect CPs that I spent, do I regain three CPs?
c. Or because 6 CPs were spent, can I gain 6 CPs if my dice are ungodly lucky?

Please keep this mess of assorted clauses in mind for your deliberations:

"This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the
ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but
once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points
until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

Let the Salt begin!

I am not seeing the problem here. Both the Warlord Trait and AoV stratagem happen when the command points are "spent". Due to sequencing, whoever turn it is decides the order they are resolved. Either way, they all occur regardless of the order you play them. The Command Points are still spent, even if they get later refunded or nullified. You'll roll 6 dice, and be able to regain a maximum of 1 CP. You get 6 attempts to get a maximum of 1 CP refunded.

I believe the meaning of the exception is this:

Tactical Restraint says that you cannot get any more command points once you get one. For AoV, you technically roll for each - so, once you get on 6+, you stop and get 1CP.

Player of the Twilight, however, says that you roll for all the CPs on one dice, and then you get that many CPs if you roll the right number. Therefore, you get all the CPs.

That's just my logic

Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
I believe the meaning of the exception is this:

Tactical Restraint says that you cannot get any more command points once you get one. For AoV, you technically roll for each - so, once you get on 6+, you stop and get 1CP.

Player of the Twilight, however, says that you roll for all the CPs on one dice, and then you get that many CPs if you roll the right number. Therefore, you get all the CPs.

That's just my logic

I mean, nothing says you no longer roll the dice. You still have to roll the dice for Labyrinthine Cunning (not AoV, you got that mixed up here) even if you can't regenerate any more CP, it's just rolls of 6 won't do anything anymore due to Tactical Restraint.

Also Labyrinthine Cunning is not 6+, it's just 6.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Unnamed Harlequin wrote:
I believe the meaning of the exception is this:

Tactical Restraint says that you cannot get any more command points once you get one. For AoV, you technically roll for each - so, once you get on 6+, you stop and get 1CP.

Player of the Twilight, however, says that you roll for all the CPs on one dice, and then you get that many CPs if you roll the right number. Therefore, you get all the CPs.

That's just my logic

I mean, nothing says you no longer roll the dice. You still have to roll the dice for Labyrinthine Cunning (not AoV, you got that mixed up here) even if you can't regenerate any more CP, it's just rolls of 6 won't do anything anymore due to Tactical Restraint.

Also Labyrinthine Cunning is not 6+, it's just 6.

Ah, my apologies. I play a no-ally Harlequins list, so this rarely comes up. But yes, I agree with you.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
"in these cases, the
ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but
once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points
until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

You resolve the B instance of Labyrinthine Cunning, rolling 4 dice and getting a 6, 6, 6, and 7 (one of the dice split in half).
You regain 1 CP due to the Tactical Restraint limitation, and cannot gain any more CP other than the explicit exceptions listed in the Tactical Restraint rule.

BCB,
But the highlighted orange section has me questioning your call:
"can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point "

Is that not very clear to imply that getting 2 or more results of means 2 or more CPs gained?

BTW:
If I had been the rules writer, the "Exception Paragraph" wouldn't exist. I'd have just made a flat 1 CP yield possible, pre battle round. This "Exception Paragraph" mucks it up. IMHO.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
"in these cases, the
ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but
once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points
until the next battle round. Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

You resolve the B instance of Labyrinthine Cunning, rolling 4 dice and getting a 6, 6, 6, and 7 (one of the dice split in half).
You regain 1 CP due to the Tactical Restraint limitation, and cannot gain any more CP other than the explicit exceptions listed in the Tactical Restraint rule.

BCB,
But the highlighted orange section has me questioning your call:
"can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point "

Is that not very clear to imply that getting 2 or more results of means 2 or more CPs gained?

BTW:
If I had been the rules writer, the "Exception Paragraph" wouldn't exist. I'd have just made a flat 1 CP yield possible, pre battle round. This "Exception Paragraph" mucks it up. IMHO.

You cut out a very important part of the rule. You can't just cut out half a rule and expect it to keep the same meaning.

This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round.

The Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait isn't the "Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait", so it can only regain a single CP.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cut out a very important part of the rule. You can't just cut out half a rule and expect it to keep the same meaning.

This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round.

The Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait isn't the "Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait", so it can only regain a single CP.

Hmm.

So in what case can one farm more than one CP, according to the orange section I cited?

Edit:
Oh. It'd just be those 3 mentioned " Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait " ?
Correct ?

Still, there's that last danged line:
"Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

How does that play out?

@BCB, I sincerely appreciate your use of spelling out examples. It is very helpful.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cut out a very important part of the rule. You can't just cut out half a rule and expect it to keep the same meaning.

This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round.

The Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait isn't the "Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait", so it can only regain a single CP.

Hmm.

So in what case can one farm more than one CP, according to the orange section I cited?

Those abilities that refund ALL spent Command Points as one action, e.g. Player of the Twilight (as far as I can see)

 Brothererekose wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cut out a very important part of the rule. You can't just cut out half a rule and expect it to keep the same meaning.

This does not apply to the Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or to or the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait – in these cases, the ability/Warlord Trait can refund or gain the player more than 1 Command Point if the Stratagem used cost 2 or more Command Points to use, but once any Command Points have been gained as a result of the rule neither it, nor any similar rule, can be used to gain any more Command Points until the next battle round.

The Labyrinthine Cunning Warlord Trait isn't the "Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait", so it can only regain a single CP.

Hmm.

So in what case can one farm more than one CP, according to the orange section I cited?

Edit:
Oh. It'd just be those 3 mentioned " Moment Shackle or the Seven-fold Chant abilities, or [...] the Player of the Twilight Warlord Trait " ?
Correct ?

Still, there's that last danged line:
"Also note that this does not apply to Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems
(e.g. Feeder Tendrils, Agents of Vect, etc.)."

How does that play out?

@BCB, I sincerely appreciate your use of spelling out examples. It is very helpful.

It means exactly what it says it means. Those 3 things can refund multiple CP, and then you can't regain CP again via a similar ability that turn. Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems are not considered when deciding if you've already regained Command Points that turn (e.g. you can't use Agents of Vect to deny your opponent their CP regen for the battle round).

Example 1: Opponent uses a stratagem, you use Agent of Vect, which causes CP to be refunded. That refund doesn't stop the opponent from attempting to gain a CP that battle round because Agents of Vect already "gave" them some.
Example 2: You kill an enemy CHARACTER with a Lictor. You use Feeder Tendrils to gain D3 CP. If for whatever reason you have some ability that lets you regain CP when you use a stratagem, you can still attempt to regain a single CP via those abilities, the Feeder Tendrils giving you CP don't block it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It means exactly what it says it means. Those 3 things can refund multiple CP, and then you can't regain CP again via a similar ability that turn. Command Points that are gained or refunded as specifically instructed on Stratagems are not considered when deciding if you've already regained Command Points that turn (e.g. you can't use Agents of Vect to deny your opponent their CP regen for the battle round).

Example 1: Opponent uses a stratagem, you use Agent of Vect, which causes CP to be refunded. That refund doesn't stop the opponent from attempting to gain a CP that battle round because Agents of Vect already "gave" them some.

To restate it back to you to see if I got it right:

a. Let's say opponent uses a 2 CP strat. I use AoV (whether he loses his CPs on the AoV's or is refunded his CPs a result 2 thur 5, I know is not relevant for sample 'a' here). I then roll six dice, via Labyrinthine Cunning. No matter how many pop up, I only gain 1 CP. Correct?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Example 2: You kill an enemy CHARACTER with a Lictor. You use Feeder Tendrils to gain D3 CP. If for whatever reason you have some ability that lets you regain CP when you use a stratagem, you can still attempt to regain a single CP via those abilities, the Feeder Tendrils giving you CP don't block it.

Ah. I think I understand AoV's role here. Let's see if I got it:

 Brothererekose wrote:
a. Let's say opponent uses a 2 CP strat. I use AoV (whether he loses his CPs on the AoV's or is refunded his CPs a result 2 thur 5, I know is not relevant for sample 'a' here). I then roll six dice, via Labyrinthine Cunning. No matter how many pop up, I only gain 1 CP. Correct?

Correct. Furthermore if you trigger Labyrinthine Cunning again later in the same battle round (even if it's a different turn), you don't get any more CP back.

 Brothererekose wrote:
b. I'm playing AM and I use the stratgem Ambush (3 CPs). My opponent uses AoV to try to stop it. A 2 thru 5 is rolled, so, Ambush doesn't happen, but I as the AM player still am refunded my 3 CPs; Tactical Restraint not inhibiting it at all.
Correct?

Correct. If they have a method of regaining CP, they can attempt to do so in addition to the refund.

 Brothererekose wrote:
c. Further, the Drukari player decideds to farm this 7 CP pile. No matter how many pop up, the DE player only gains 1 CP. Correct?

Correct, as question a.

Thanks, BCB.

A little further:

Tactical Restraint essentially establishes a limitation of a 6 CP yield, for Grand Strategist or Labyrinthine Cunning (and other CP farm mechanisms) for a Match Play, 6 round game (per player), huh?

...

I'm still looking for that last piece of meat/gristle on this bone. I like to thoroughly chew something clean, explore all the permutations, etc.

 Brothererekose wrote:
Thanks, BCB.

A little further:

Tactical Restraint essentially establishes a limitation of a 6 CP yield, for Grand Strategist or Labyrinthine Cunning (and other CP farm mechanisms) for a Match Play, 6 round game (per player), huh?

...

I'm still looking for that last piece of meat/gristle on this bone. I like to thoroughly chew something clean, explore all the permutations, etc.

Yeah, it basically means you can't "stack" CP refunding mechanisms anymore. To be fair, it was getting silly since you could theoretically end up with more CP than you lost for every stratagem you used, especially if you were Imperial (Grand Strategist + Veritas Vitae, plus "stealing" opponent CP with Kurov Aquila), but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yeah, it basically means you can't "stack" CP refunding mechanisms anymore. To be fair, it was getting silly since you could theoretically end up with more CP than you lost for every stratagem you used, especially if you were Imperial (Grand Strategist + Veritas Vitae, plus "stealing" opponent CP with Kurov Aquila), but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

I agree. At Bay Area Open, I managed to 'farm' at least 6 CPs per game, and as many as 9 (I kept track), using Labyrinthine Cunning. Which is a little ridiculous, especially in my opponents' views. Book keeping wise, it also ate up a few minutes per game, which with chess clocks can have an impact.

I do like Tactical Restraint, as it's going to reduce the amount of dice rolled per game, speeding things up, which is always a good idea.

I would rather like to see GW nerf lists with 500+ dice per turn rolled, that would speed up games a lot more.

Keep in mind that Labrythine Cunning and Player of the Twilight are not optional. It does not say "you may" roll for command points. It is explicit that you roll whenever a those abilities are triggered. Doesn't mean much for LC, but it does mean a harlequin player can't intentionally skip a 1 CP roll to try and gain CP when a 2+ stratagem is spent.