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Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets






we live in an unprecedented time of GW activity.
they are active in the community (both online and at tournys)
and their releases for their biggest flagship games has been frequent.

what could be wrong? well any market can get oversaturated. GW has been releasing many products not directly related to their flagship games (they just share the same setting). this combined with an expensive hobby can easily cause the GW consumer base to pick and choose what new product to get (many of us cant afford to buy everything).

and since all these products are being made by GW then all the expense is on them. if they make 5 new board games and only one sells good then they have a deficit from spending the money and resources on the poor selling products.

i wanted to know what you guys thought about this and why.
is GW going to get more money by making all these products within such a short time span?
is this going to hurt them in the long run because we just dont have the money to pay for all this product?

"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"

geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket" 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I think it's great.

We lamented the demise of Specialist Games for years, now it's back in force.

I can't afford everything either, so I pick and choose. Blood Bowl, Shadespire, and Kill Team have all been side purchases for me.

Do I think it's in any way a bad move for the company? No!

Adeptus Mechanicus is too expensive for most people, for example. Yet it sold out in its opening week. That suggests GW was aware of roughly what the demand would be, and manufactured an appropriate amount.

In this regard, at least, GW seem to know exactly what they're doing!
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Its a great time for hobbyists.
GW offers tabletop in the form of 40k, AoS and The Hobbit as well as several updated or new board games.
Nevertheless, the money of the customers is finite and so many of us have to choose carefully what route to go.
In our gaming group, players tend to ignore the board games. At least, they are not played in the club.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Made in jp
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




One reason to saturate the market when you already hold the majority of the market share is to own your competitors business.

There arent many TT gamers who havent touched GW products. Release after release gets people excited for GW stuff and spending their limited disposable incomes on it rather than other stuff. A bunch of other brands have taken sizable hits and some have even closed up shop since the new GW hit the scene.

Just a few years ago people were speculating about a few notable games that might overtake 40k in sales and popularity. Thats bad news for GW, no one wants to spend money on a game when they percieve the playerbase to be in recession. So they grew some market sense, kicked it into high gear and no one in their right mind would even dream of saying that about GWs brands now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 09:37:04


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






The board games seem to fulfil a few different functions;

They're a source of discounted miniatures for 40k or Age of Sigmar
They're playable games in their own right (although not many people take advantage of that)
They let the designers experiment with different game mechanics. That may or may not influence future products.
They let them focus on a particular area of the settings in more detail. Again, that might feed back into the main games, or may not (Darkoath appear to be getting expanded, whereas the two aelves from Silver Tower haven't gone anywhere yet).

Personally speaking, all my recent purchases have been side games - Adeptus Titanicus, Kill Team, Necromunda, Shadespire. If they'd only focussed on AoS and 40k, GW wouldn't have got any of my money this year.

   
Made in is
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





Release after release gets people excited for GW stuff and spending their limited disposable incomes on it rather than other stuff.


It is kinda working on me. Haven't been able to get into X-Wing 2.0 because the GW stuff is non-stop.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Lets not forget that even GW admits and is preparing for a slowdown in sales and their production. I think that what they are doing right now is re-establishing themselves not just as a dominant powerhouse in the market, but also their own entire catalogue.

Lets consider that games like Bloodbowl were still going strong for years without GW supporting them and that with Kickstarter several other copy-cat games funded and made good money. Same for a lot of other games that were or are copycatting prior GW products.

I think GW of today saw that and has decided that rather than letting others fill the market, they will fill it.



Alongside that both 40K and AoS have had a big turn around in how they are produced and distributed in terms of rules and models. I think that GW is pushing hard right now to get both games on a stable flat level and then work from there. For this its been a big turn around for them as they've changed decades of their old strategy (codex/battletome random releases every few months). For both games a core part is that GW isn't just putting out balanced rules, but doing so as fast as possible to keep all armies on the same footing.



Internally they've also changed, my impression is that in the past a lot of smaller games were done in spare time between other major projects, which could fast lead to them getting ignored in favour of higher selling products. I think GW has now seen that whilst chasing the best sellers is good, its bad if its done at the expense of their other lines. Marines selling like mad is good, but its bad in the long run if it turns out that that is all they are selling. I think nearly losing Fantasy was a hard lesson for them. So now they've set themselves up with more dedicated internal teams - even if the support games come out a bit slower, they are getting focused attention instead of being side projects to be forgotten about.




Also don't forget GW doesn't intend people to buy everything. Sure they'd love it, but in general they are hitting the market on multiple fronts to appeal to multiple types of gamer. The Bloodbowl crowd might never buy into Adepticus Titanicus; but similarly neither of those groups might buy into Age of Sigmar. That's fine, so long as each one holds its own GW wins. I think they've also re-evaluated what counts as a success for them - in the kirby era I think they were chasing BIG money with big launches. Now I think they are shifting to a pattern of being happier with steadier income rather than focusing on big bulky peek sales. It likely makes it easier for their production to aim for a steady output on multiple lines than it is to try for big spikes in a single army of one line.


I fully expect this pace to ease off eventually, esp once they are past releasing codex and battletomes. To my eye the one big risk is that GW ends up getting trapped in releasing more and more armies and bloats the games themselves with too much

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in fi
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Finland

My hobby backlog has never been this big. I guess the "oversaturation" is working.

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 Overread wrote:
Lets not forget that even GW admits and is preparing for a slowdown in sales and their production. I think that what they are doing right now is re-establishing themselves not just as a dominant powerhouse in the market, but also their own entire catalogue.


They're expecting a slowdown in growth, are they not? They're still expecting their 2019 figures to be greater than 2018, just not by the huge increases of the last couple of years.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






Yeah, they will make more money off so many releases. The people who make Warhammer their main hobby are going to buy all of the board games as well.

Think about it this way. I'm going to make the assumption that the vast majority of Warhammer players (AoS and 40K) will have at most two armies (unless you're a hobbyist and just like to paint). That being said, there's a very good chance that, if you've been in the hobby for even just a couple of years, you most likely have most of the models that you want for your armies (for two or four armies depending on how many of the flagship games you play).

What now?

I'm going to assume that if you are a gamer, you're not going to want to spend the money and time to collect and build yet another army. So, you just go to your local store (GW or LGS) and play. You don't buy anything more. In other words, GW isn't making anymore money off of you even though your discretionary income hasn't changed. This causes sales to stagnate, and GW doesn't make anywhere near as much money.

But, what if they introduce many new board games that have their own small armies (renamed gangs or warbands)? Then, all those people who don't want to put the hundreds of dollars and tens to hundreds of hours painting can now play something new and fun for relatively minimal cost in both money and time. Plus, with the new colored sprues, these players can buy a new warband, throw it together really quickly, and start playing the same day they buy it. Buying, building, and readying to paint a 2000 point army can take hours if not days even if you can buy all the models in one trip.

Also, even though you have your armies, I'm sure everyone wants to dabble in another army from time to time. Kill team is perfect for that. Rather than having to spend the money and time to try out a new army and see if you might like the models, weapon options, etc., you buy a Kill Team starter or just a box or two of models, and you've got yourself a relatively very inexpensive new army to play.

Then, we come to the new players. I've already read I would say at least a few to a half dozen experiences where people get their friends sucked into the main game of 40K with Kill Team. These board games are excellent for bringing new players into the flagship games where GW can make a lot more money off them. I remember when I got into 40K. I honestly didn't expect to have walked out of the store having spent $200 on a starter box, brushes, and paints. That kind of sticker shock can really cause new players to think twice. But, a five man Deathwatch Kill Team or any of the Underworlds warbands + paint and brushes really doesn't cause as much sticker shock as putting that commitment into starting an army when you're not sure you'll enjoy how they play or the game at all.

tl;dr - If GW focused only on the core game, sales would eventually stagnate causing them to lose money (I believe something like this happened with WFB 8th Edition/End Times). The additional side games will almost always be bought by the hardcore players, can help those who have been in the game for a while be able to dabble in a new army, and can help with the sticker shock of new players bringing more in.

SG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 14:31:29


40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

 Overread wrote:
Lets not forget that even GW admits and is preparing for a slowdown in sales and their production. I think that what they are doing right now is re-establishing themselves not just as a dominant powerhouse in the market, but also their own entire catalogue.

They had their slowdown in production. That's something they addressed as to why books weren't seeing new models but rather repacks.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Fantasy dwindled not just because of its core market having bought everything; but its core market getting older and moving on with life whilst losing recruitment of new players. The steep start up costs and lack of a strongly marketed and supported "kill team" mode also harmed people getting in.

Shadspire is now AoS killteam equivalent for a while and I think it will remain so until GW has got most armies with Battletomes then I'd expect to see them market and revamp the Skirmish rules set and market that more heavily as the kill team entry point.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in us
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 Overread wrote:
Fantasy dwindled not just because of its core market having bought everything; but its core market getting older and moving on with life whilst losing recruitment of new players. The steep start up costs and lack of a strongly marketed and supported "kill team" mode also harmed people getting in.
Take this as you will as I'm not sure I really trust the old manager of my local GW (current manager is great). Anyway, I started Warhammer the weekend before the 7th Edition Dark Angels codex dropped. If you were playing/collecting over three years ago when that happened, you'll remember that it was only a few weeks away from when AoS launched as well.

On the Friday that I bought my Dark Vengeance starter box, brushes, and paints, the guys who were playing WFB End Times started coming in the door. And, the store got packed fast. To this day, no late night, Friday night, or any day of the week when I have been at the store has been as busy as that night. This is where I always got confused. Why would GW stop supporting such a popular game and more or less essentially keep anything older than AoS (on the fantasy side) from being played in store?

I got to the point that I was so curious that I asked the old manager about the above question. He told me that, yes, WFB 8th/End Times was very popular, but all of the customers that played WFB had already bought all the models they were going to buy. So, the store (and therefore GW) were no longer making any money off WFB even though there were a ton of people who were playing.

Unfortunately, I never really had the chance to ask about cost to get into the game as I was only interested in 40K at the time. And, AoS dropped like three weeks after I saw the store begin to get packed with WFB players. So, I'm not sure if the price or age of players had anything to do with the stagnation of the game. From what I've heard from the manager (again, take with a grain of salt), the problem was more with the fact that the players, while still plenty in number, had just bought all the models they were going to buy. So, there wasn't any money being made off WFB anymore (at least at that store).

SG

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/08 15:20:23


40K - T'au Empire
Kill Team - T'au Empire, Death Guard
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in gb
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




London

@geargutz: Never played Monopoly? No snark intended.

Personally, I fething love the current situation. I just wish they'd buy up some of the 3rd-party makers and incorporate their stuff, too.
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

geargutz wrote:
we live in an unprecedented time of GW activity.
they are active in the community (both online and at tournys)
and their releases for their biggest flagship games has been frequent.

what could be wrong? well any market can get oversaturated. GW has been releasing many products not directly related to their flagship games (they just share the same setting). this combined with an expensive hobby can easily cause the GW consumer base to pick and choose what new product to get (many of us cant afford to buy everything).

and since all these products are being made by GW then all the expense is on them. if they make 5 new board games and only one sells good then they have a deficit from spending the money and resources on the poor selling products.

i wanted to know what you guys thought about this and why.
is GW going to get more money by making all these products within such a short time span?
is this going to hurt them in the long run because we just dont have the money to pay for all this product?


It really comes down to the individual.

For example, thought I refuse to play AT, I will be buying some Titans at some point in order to construct and paint a diorama board. It will be a one time investment from me. KT didn't require much for me to play, just picking up the rules and the new terrain kits (which I was going to do any ways for a home table project). Getting the rules were a bonus.

As for the board games and stuff, I can tell you we've already had three younger kids start coming to our FLGS group on Sunday's because of those board games. They've just picked up their first Start Collecting kits. So, I think that this is going to be nothing but positive for the company. As always, let's wait 12 months and see if things get better or worse first.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm glad GW is doing well finally after all these years, but I have to say that they are pushing things a bit quickly. There is a bit of a hobby fatigue and because of the nature of table top gaming it takes quite a bit longer to build and paint something in order to use it.

Maybe it's me, but I'd like them to slow things down a bit, or maybe just release something other than Primaris.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




geargutz wrote:
we live in an unprecedented time of GW activity.
they are active in the community (both online and at tournys)
and their releases for their biggest flagship games has been frequent.

what could be wrong? well any market can get oversaturated. GW has been releasing many products not directly related to their flagship games (they just share the same setting). this combined with an expensive hobby can easily cause the GW consumer base to pick and choose what new product to get (many of us cant afford to buy everything).

and since all these products are being made by GW then all the expense is on them. if they make 5 new board games and only one sells good then they have a deficit from spending the money and resources on the poor selling products.

i wanted to know what you guys thought about this and why.
is GW going to get more money by making all these products within such a short time span?
is this going to hurt them in the long run because we just dont have the money to pay for all this product?


Most of these products don't cost GW all that much though. Look at Kill team. 90 percent of the kill team releases are kits they already make/have stock of with some extra paper products. GW gets to unload a lot of kits with out needing to entice people to start an entirely new army.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The problem with slowing down is that many people are still on the fence. Take AoS where more than half the factions and armies are still without a Battletome and some are still only one or two models big in size! Whilst with Shadspire many people are not buying into it until "their army(ies)" are represented - myself I'm likely not buying into it until/if Daughters of Khaine get some models.

So if GW slow down it makes it easier for those with wider collections; but those with less diversity might get harmed with a longer wait period.

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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun





The over-saturation hasn't bothered me. I got back into 40k at the beginning of 8th. Bought the killteam book. Got into Adeptus Titanicus.

Everything else, I'm not really interested in. I think the choice is a good thing. Some things for dabblers. Some thing for vets. Some things for board game people. If you like all of those, you may be over-stretched and over budget i imagine.
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Most gamers have a limited hobby budget to be sure, but there are people who won't get into 40K or AoS because of the huge up front investment. The smaller games actually pull in money from those folks who aren't willing to drop $500 per army. So they're not just double dipping existing players, they're drawing in hesitant newcomers. Games like Kill Team and Shadespire are ideal for starting people into wargaming.

   
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Ship's Officer





Dallas, TX

I love it! GW is making a move globally while the Star Wars franchise has been taking a beating. I hope to see more GW related cosplays, video games, novels, accessories in the near future.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






So if GW slow down it makes it easier for those with wider collections; but those with less diversity might get harmed with a longer wait period.


I've been playing for almost 20 years now and I remember having to wait 5+ years for my rules to be updated so it doesn't bother me, in fact it helps me finish projects.

These chapter approved/FAQ things they do now ruins my armies within half a year. I cant keep up. And I don't even chase the meta or play in tournaments, I only take what I like. But if that thing becomes unusable (no deepstriking first turn) or change in points values, I have to completely change my army.

My Ynnari army as an example now is totally illegal, so everything I purchased for the army is a waste.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
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Aspirant Tech-Adept




UK

I’m also happy for it. There are enough new releases that I can’t get them all on release, and so don’t try. I collect a lot of 40k factions, so a lot of releases are relevant to me, but I’m now comfortable that I can’t possibly buy everything, so just pick and choose at it.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





"Waaah, GW is releasing things too fast for my wallet to keep up!"

I hear this a lot. I've felt it myself. There's so much good stuff coming out that has me excited. I find myself selling off parts of my collection so I can afford the next big thing and start a new project.

Let's remember that very little of the new stuff that GW has released has been 'limited edition' or 'limited run' or anything like that. All the big products, from Kill Team to Blood Bowl to Necromunda, are still on the shelves, and even if something disappears from the shelves *coughforgeworldcough* there's still ways to find it out in the world. So if you're really a collector and having a hard time keeping up, take a deep breath and slow yourself down before you're unable to pay for your kid's college. Remember. College > Warhammer.

Factions that got zero attention are finally getting attention. Games that were gone for a decade or more are back in full force with support.

This is great. There is no market saturation. Market saturation is when there are too many competitors offering the same product. While, yes, there are more miniatures games than ever before, GW is staying at the top of the pack by releasing things every. single. week.

As a fan, I couldn't be happier. Now that all the big popular codexes have gotten their releases and we're coming down to the last few codexes that need to be updated, I'm super thrilled for what the future holds. There's good stirring about Chaos Marines, Slaanesh, and Sisters of Battle getting huge updates that GW never would have done before.
   
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





I'm sure a multi-million dollar company has a a few marketing executives and business annalists that work on what the company can produce, what will make a profit and what promotes sales in other departments so are able to take a loss on. Maybe just a few...

I love all these releases, the going back to board games/one off game systems (to promote sales through easy to get into the universe via an easier to play game and the cheapness of models to continue the hobby for established players) is awesome.

The coming back into the community with their youtube (and facebook? I don't use it so idk).

The re-release has been good for me, getting games like from when I was a teenager (Necromunder etc) back again and some good released boxes/games (silver tower etc) has made me buy more than I would if not. Not to mention the great 40k boxes like from Death Masque on.

I think they are giving exactly what people need to keep spending money. A lot of these box sets or games do get sold out or are out of stock pretty quick even here in the land down under, so they must be doing something correct.

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On one hand, it's great they're releasing a greater variety of stuff than just their 2-3 big games. On the other hand, their approach is fairly haphazard, trying anything that crosses their mind to see if it's profitable, and specialist games are only semi-supported. The variety also doesn't entirely exist in terms of gameplay- GW is trying harder than ever to sell the same ruleset as many different ways as they can, or resorting to gimmicks like endless spells. I'm not sure that their resources are allocated as well as they could be either, especially since GW appears quite reluctant to hire enough people to fully support AOS, 40k, MESBG BB, Necromunda, and board games.
   
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Blastaar wrote:
On one hand, it's great they're releasing a greater variety of stuff than just their 2-3 big games. On the other hand, their approach is fairly haphazard, trying anything that crosses their mind to see if it's profitable, and specialist games are only semi-supported. The variety also doesn't entirely exist in terms of gameplay- GW is trying harder than ever to sell the same ruleset as many different ways as they can, or resorting to gimmicks like endless spells. I'm not sure that their resources are allocated as well as they could be either, especially since GW appears quite reluctant to hire enough people to fully support AOS, 40k, MESBG BB, Necromunda, and board games.


I think the teams that are working on those aspects will always be hard pressed, they release rules for a tonne of people to analyse and criticise. Thus, it is a high pressure job (though their proof reading guys have no excuse...). Do they need more staff for that? Only they can say. Some of the community says they need more (but as said when you have thousands scrutinizing, things come up no matter how many read or interrupt). I'm sure they hire as many as need, the quality could be questioned, but it then depends on the wages they pay and the passion of the employee.

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10k Sisters of Battle
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Blastaar wrote:
The variety also doesn't entirely exist in terms of gameplay- GW is trying harder than ever to sell the same ruleset as many different ways as they can, or resorting to gimmicks like endless spells.


That hasn't been my experience with Adeptus Titanicus. For Killteam, that's totally valid. Killteam is basically 40k with slightly altered rules. Adeptus Titanicus, despite being set in the same universe, runs almost everything differently mechanically. I don't think AT's mechanics would work in 40k or other systems, but Im glad they didn't try to shoehorn 40ks mechanics into the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 21:10:25


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Kill Team is designed to be 40K light for a lighter game or for intro games to lure people into the game so its no shock that its got the same rules set.
I fully expect to see GW revamp Skirmish for AoS in time (I think once more factions have battletomes and its thus a better time to push for more attention/sales on the range as a whole)

Adepticus Titanicus, Bloodbowl and Shadspire all run on their own totally separate rules systems. Shadspire even runs with cards more so than the D6 system alone.

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You bring up a really interesting point in terms of the type of market these products are designed for and in some ways their function.

Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus are all re-imaginings or re-releases of older, tried and tested games. They generally appeal to an older audience who may fondly remember the "good old days" but didn't have a chance to purchase the models at the time or has missed playing these games since they became unsupported. Which might explain the price point and fact that some of the ranges are resin.

Shadespire is a relatively unique offer for GW. It appeals more to competitive gamers with its focus on balance and the minis that use coloured plastics and are easy to build. The individual sets are also pretty inexpensive compared to other products GW sells. There is also the element of collectibles in there with the cards. It works exceptionally well as an introduction to the hobby and AOS in particular as a setting. Great crossover potential.

Speed Freeks is a re-imagining of Gorka Morka by the looks of things but has the added bonus of including new models. New models that will undoubtedly be released later at additional cost that most Ork players will want their greasy mits on as quick as possible. So it's a relatively safe bet in one regard but it appeals to a niche market which contains some risk. It'll be interesting to see how GW price the item, whether they offer savings for the product. I suspect it'll sell like hot cakes but I'm not sold on the longevity of Speed Freeks as a standalone game.

Kill Team is one of the most intelligent things GW has done for some time. I've not invested myself personally (because I've set a self imposed 'no purchase 'till Ork stuff' limit) but I know many people that have. It's great for not only bringing new players into 40k (because they don't need an entire army right away) and it's great for enticing existing players to buy models from other armies that they've always been interested in but didn't have quite the funds to buy an entire army. It also helps shift some old stock in the terrain and has an element of collectibles with the cards. Truly ingenious, probably best only by Shadespire. I think the Commanders expansion has arrived too early though. I know many people who are still completing their Kill Team and haven't really had a chance to play properly. Not to mention us salty, salty Ork players.

Blackstone Fortress looks again to be a re-imagining of Silver Tower but set in 40k. Rumour has it there'll be new models for one of the most beloved factions in the game. If this is true it'll fly off the shelves too. Particularly when we consider the effect of Kill Team and the cross over there. It suits new and existing hobbyists alike and will probably be an excellent Christmas seller.

They're not stupid and these releases show that there is a clear strategy with them. Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus and Bloodbowl are probably the "riskiest" in terms of investment and probably offer the least in terms of actual profit. Their effect on those jaded players and most importantly the perception of GW as a business can't be overstated though. The other games, in my eyes, are extremely clever and low risk. I think the box sets (such as Wake the Dead, Tooth and Claw etc) have been too frequent but are again likely to be low risk.
   
 
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