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Reign of Confusion: When your opponent spends a CP on a stratagem, roll a dice, on a 4+, it costs another.

Does this cap? Or is it possible that if someone rolls 10 4+ in a row, the stratagem could potentially cost you 10 more CP? Based on the wording (paraphrased here, don't have my book) there is no cap.

EDIT:

here is the exact wording:

"If you have any Callidus Assassins in your army, then during the first battle round you must roll a dice each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost)."

 Marmatag wrote:
Reign of Confusion: When your opponent spends a CP on a stratagem, roll a dice, on a 4+, it costs another.

Does this cap? Or is it possible that if someone rolls 10 4+ in a row, the stratagem could potentially cost you 10 more CP? Based on the wording (paraphrased here, don't have my book) there is no cap.

Go reread the ability. It's when a player spends any amount of CP on a strategem. The ability doesn't care how much the strategem costs and doesn't trigger off each individual CP spent. You're opponent says "I'm spending 3CP on this strategem." You say "Woah... (rolls a 4+) ...you're actually spending 4."

Except then you spent that 4th CP on the stratagem. Which is how its worded. So technically you spent a 4th on that stratagem. So technically they can roll again. That's the argument.

 Marmatag wrote:
Except then you spent that 4th CP on the stratagem. Which is how its worded. So technically you spent a 4th on that stratagem. So technically they can roll again. That's the argument.

Eh... intention seems crystal clear. Good luck getting any actual players to play that way. I suppose this is TECHNICALLY ambiguous and could stand to have a clarifying FAQ for the literal minded among us.

I don't think you can make the case it's intended either way. And the rule is actually very clear in how its written.

I super hate this and for some reason recall it being capped, but that might have been a few misplays I encountered.

 Marmatag wrote:
Except then you spent that 4th CP on the stratagem. Which is how its worded. So technically you spent a 4th on that stratagem. So technically they can roll again. That's the argument.

No, technically they wouldn't roll again. That would still be covered by only paying 1 more CP on the stratagem than you normally would. It doesn't tell you that it costs more and that he has to roll for the CP to see if that costs him more than one. Paying 2 more for the stratagem is not paying 1 more for the stratagem. You've already made the roll for that stratagem and are paying the 1 extra point for the stratagem already, so the rolling ends at that point.

Ok i pulled up the rule.

"If you have any Callidus Assassins in your army, then during the first battle round you must roll a dice each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost)."

It specifically says whenever a CP is spent on a stratagem, and also, that they must spend another CP on the stratagem.

I see your argument though. it's not a part of the stratagems cost, it's a separate pay out to use it. "One extra CP to use that stratagem" isn't tied to the stratagem itself. it is ambiguously worded, though, because "to use that stratagem" could be argued that it's a part of the inherent cost of the stratagem.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok i pulled up the rule.

"If you have any Callidus Assassins in your army, then during the first battle round you must roll a dice each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost)."

It specifically says whenever a CP is spent on a stratagem, and also, that they must spend another CP on the stratagem.

I see your argument though. it's not a part of the stratagems cost, it's a separate pay out to use it. "One extra CP to use that stratagem" isn't tied to the stratagem itself. it is ambiguously worded, though, because "to use that stratagem" could be argued that it's a part of the inherent cost of the stratagem.

It's spending CP to use the stratagem, according to youre quote. You don't actually spend the CP to use the stratagem until you spend all the CP needed to use it, including the 1 extra you might need.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok i pulled up the rule.

"If you have any Callidus Assassins in your army, then during the first battle round you must roll a dice each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost)."

It specifically says whenever a CP is spent on a stratagem, and also, that they must spend another CP on the stratagem.

I see your argument though. it's not a part of the stratagems cost, it's a separate pay out to use it. "One extra CP to use that stratagem" isn't tied to the stratagem itself. it is ambiguously worded, though, because "to use that stratagem" could be argued that it's a part of the inherent cost of the stratagem.

It's spending CP to use the stratagem, according to youre quote. You don't actually spend the CP to use the stratagem until you spend all the CP needed to use it, including the 1 extra you might need.

Except the "CPs spent so far are lost" comment at the end, though, kind of conflicts that. It implies that the command points were already spent.

I mean, you're technically correct, but again, I don't think that's the intention and I don't think you'll get anyone to play that way. At best, we'd need a clarification from GW via FAQ or Errata.

 Kriswall wrote:
I mean, you're technically correct, but again, I don't think that's the intention and I don't think you'll get anyone to play that way. At best, we'd need a clarification from GW via FAQ or Errata.

It has been ruled at a tournament I participate in that this will work as i have described, so intent doesn't really matter to me, i need a concrete case for why it shouldn't, or it does.

What’s the confusion here?

Roll one die no matter how many CPs the Strat being played costs.
On a 4+ your opponent spends 1CP extra for the Strat to go off.
On a 1-3 the Strat doesn’t work and the CPs spent are lost.

"On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem"
Directly from the line you quoted Marmatag.

Must spend 1 extra CP to USE that stratagem
is not the same as
Must spend 1 extra cp on that stratagem

That is the way I read it anyways.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem"
Directly from the line you quoted Marmatag.

Must spend 1 extra CP to USE that stratagem
is not the same as
Must spend 1 extra cp on that stratagem

That is the way I read it anyways.

This is the argument i'm going to bring with me, I'll let you know what they rule, if i encounter it.

SO this ability can only be used during the first battle round?

Here’s what using this unit looks like in action:

Opponent: I will now spend 2CP to use this Stratagem.

You: As you are spending that CP I must make a Reign of Confusion roll. A 6! You must spend an extra CP to use that stratagem and if you don’t the already spent CP is lost.

Opponent: I will pay 1 CP extra, meaning I have now payed 3CP as part of activating this stratagem. Now, the stratagems effect is...

The extra cp is not a separate payment and therefore will not trigger Reign of Confusion again. The ability interrupts the normal resolution of a stratagem and potentially changes the number of CP you must spend.

The keyword to me is ‘extra’ as it suggests you are modifying the in initial payment instead of levying an additional one.

Gendif wrote:
Here’s what using this unit looks like in action:

Opponent: I will now spend 2CP to use this Stratagem.

You: As you are spending that CP I must make a Reign of Confusion roll. A 6! You must spend an extra CP to use that stratagem and if you don’t the already spent CP is lost.

Opponent: I will pay 1 CP extra, meaning I have now payed 3CP as part of activating this stratagem. Now, the stratagems effect is...

The extra cp is not a separate payment and therefore will not trigger Reign of Confusion again. The ability interrupts the normal resolution of a stratagem and potentially changes the number of CP you must spend.

Agreed... and/or potentially stop the Strat from working but still cost your opponent the CP.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem"
Directly from the line you quoted Marmatag.

Must spend 1 extra CP to USE that stratagem
is not the same as
Must spend 1 extra cp on that stratagem

That is the way I read it anyways.

This is the argument i'm going to bring with me, I'll let you know what they rule, if i encounter it.

Hope it works for yah. I didn't realize how good that unit is going to be now without endless CP.

But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

mhalko1 wrote:
But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

First battle round, which is made of your turn 1 and opponent's turn 1.

mhalko1 wrote:
But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

Yeah... which means it's actually not that great. I don't know about everyone else, but my turn 1s are normally not strategem heavy. Lots of pre-game and lots of turns 2+, but not lots of turn 1.

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

Yeah... which means it's actually not that great. I don't know about everyone else, but my turn 1s are normally not strategem heavy. Lots of pre-game and lots of turns 2+, but not lots of turn 1.

humm - I usually spend about half my CP turn 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

Yeah... which means it's actually not that great. I don't know about everyone else, but my turn 1s are normally not strategem heavy. Lots of pre-game and lots of turns 2+, but not lots of turn 1.

humm - I usually spend about half my CP turn 1.

Different strokes for different folks. I play Necrons. Many of our strategems aren't really useful up front.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ok i pulled up the rule.

"If you have any Callidus Assassins in your army, then during the first battle round you must roll a dice each time your opponent spends Command Points (CPs) to use a stratagem. On a 4+, your opponent must spend one extra CP to use that stratagem, or else it has no effect (the CPs spent so far are lost)."

It specifically says whenever a CP is spent on a stratagem, and also, that they must spend another CP on the stratagem.

I see your argument though. it's not a part of the stratagems cost, it's a separate pay out to use it. "One extra CP to use that stratagem" isn't tied to the stratagem itself. it is ambiguously worded, though, because "to use that stratagem" could be argued that it's a part of the inherent cost of the stratagem.

It actually says “ each time your opponent spends command points (CPs) to use a stratagem. U say it said spends a command point. So you only roll once per stratagem the strat just costs one more. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1,2,3,4 or 5. U are only spending the command points once. No ambiguity there me at all.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
But these only work during turn 1 correct. not later in the game.

Yeah... which means it's actually not that great. I don't know about everyone else, but my turn 1s are normally not strategem heavy. Lots of pre-game and lots of turns 2+, but not lots of turn 1.

humm - I usually spend about half my CP turn 1.

Different strokes for different folks. I play Necrons. Many of our strategems aren't really useful up front.

True - mostly defensive strats and resurections - fight twice in combat kind of stuff.

For my tau - I basically spill CP out the gates. Turn 1 I can expect a command reroll / +1 to wound strat / addition marker lights strat / and nova reactor strat and depending on the army I am running - possibly the reroll wounds for 1 suit unit strat. That's 6 CP - 8 CP.

That is probably the heaviest army for upfront CP for me. This Gimick could easily cost me an additional 5 CP...ouch.

Just think about how useful it is to make 1CP stratagems like rerolls cost 2 CP. (That's an expensive reroll)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What’s the confusion here?

Roll one die no matter how many CPs the Strat being played costs.
On a 4+ your opponent spends 1CP extra for the Strat to go off.
On a 1-3 the Strat doesn’t work and the CPs spent are lost.

What are you? Daft?

The point is needless purposeful complication to wring out an advantage with rules lawyering! Duh! When you are too serious to just enjoy the game, but not good enough to win - rules lawyer!

Also, just to lawyer a bit more, the text says when command points (plural) are spent. So it doesn't apply to 1cp strats.

SirWeeble wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What’s the confusion here?

Roll one die no matter how many CPs the Strat being played costs.
On a 4+ your opponent spends 1CP extra for the Strat to go off.
On a 1-3 the Strat doesn’t work and the CPs spent are lost.

What are you? Daft?

The point is needless purposeful complication to wring out an advantage with rules lawyering! Duh! When you are too serious to just enjoy the game, but not good enough to win - rules lawyer!

Also, just to lawyer a bit more, the text says when command points (plural) are spent. So it doesn't apply to 1cp strats.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

SirWeeble wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What’s the confusion here?

Roll one die no matter how many CPs the Strat being played costs.
On a 4+ your opponent spends 1CP extra for the Strat to go off.
On a 1-3 the Strat doesn’t work and the CPs spent are lost.

What are you? Daft?

The point is needless purposeful complication to wring out an advantage with rules lawyering! Duh! When you are too serious to just enjoy the game, but not good enough to win - rules lawyer!

Also, just to lawyer a bit more, the text says when command points (plural) are spent. So it doesn't apply to 1cp strats.

I think he missed the part where you are probably the biggest voice of reason on these YMDC threads. lol.

Why can't we have a discussion about a real world rules question without people turning it into RAI and WAAC victimhood.

This is a real question that came up. I didn't know the rule well enough to have an informed opinion, and while it sounded wrong in the brief time i had to play a game i didn't want to dive into it then. It seemed wrong, so i asked the question here.

You guys need to get out more.

The cost of a stratagem is payed only once, when you declare its use. The additional CP is not a CP "spent on a stratagem" is a CP spent on the Callidus ability, which is not a stratagem. The fact that the Callidus ability says that if you don't spend a CP, the stratagem will not go off, doesn't mean that the CP is spent on that stratagem. I wouldn't even allow someone to regenerate that CP.