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Do you think Abaddon will go to Molech and receive the same powers Horus did? He wan'ts autonomy from Chaos, but he could steal the powers like the Emperor rather than fully turning to Chaos like Horus did. It would be a really good read if he did go back to Molech, even if he doesn't get powers there.

Considering what happened to Horus, I'd imagine the result puts it out of consideration for Abbadon. Horus was entitled to power, and that pride was his Achilles Heel. Abbadon knows that the gods hang you with the power that they give you, or they let you think you stole or earned.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Considering what happened to Horus, I'd imagine the result puts it out of consideration for Abbadon. Horus was entitled to power, and that pride was his Achilles Heel. Abbadon knows that the gods hang you with the power that they give you, or they let you think you stole or earned.

Abaddon might think that he has to with the re-introduction of the loyalist Primarchs. Plus you only give something over to chaos if you make a bargain, he can go there and see what they are offering and think, nah its not worth it. That would be a cool story actually.

It wouldn't fit his characterization. One he hates Horus and everything linked to him, having literally destroyed his body and murdered his clone. Additionally Abaddon could have been a demon prince eons ago but doesn't want that because he doesn't want Chaos to have power over him like that. I don't see him taking the power cause he knows that would make him a pawn just like Horus.

Finally I don't buy the whole power from Molech is what made the Emperor the Emperor. I think that's another chaos lie that the Gods told Horus, letting him think he had earned what the Emperor stole, while further getting there claws into him.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It wouldn't fit his characterization. One he hates Horus and everything linked to him, having literally destroyed his body and murdered his clone. Additionally Abaddon could have been a demon prince eons ago but doesn't want that because he doesn't want Chaos to have power over him like that. I don't see him taking the power cause he knows that would make him a pawn just like Horus.

Finally I don't buy the whole power from Molech is what made the Emperor the Emperor. I think that's another chaos lie that the Gods told Horus, letting him think he had earned what the Emperor stole, while further getting there claws into him.

I don't think he hates Horus, he saw him as weak and new he was better than him and he no longer say him as a father or even a peer. Yeah but the Emperor stole the powers from Molech as I already stated, so if Horus can do the same, he can possibly still remain autonomous, unlike a daemon prince, which is my point. It never made the Emperor a pawn. Whatever happened on Molech with the Emperor he got some type of power there. Its not Chaos lies, Alivia Sureka was a perpetual and a servant of the Emperor and she is the one that states he got power there and went with him to the obsidian gate. Also Horus was already there in the GG, he had his memory wiped, when he went to Molech he had to destroy the psychic angel the Emperor left to get his memory back and then he remembered that the Emperor got powers there. Also the red angel stated it as well as Horus so you have 3 totally different perspective stating the same thing. 1 imperial/loyalist, 1 Chaos/daemon and Horus honestly finding out himself, so the Emperor was without doubt there and went to see the Chaos gods and got power there, we just don't know what power he got. We know also that he got power because he had a space ship that was a one way trip to Molech during the DAOT, so he got powers that enabled him to get back to Terra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nurglitch wrote:
Considering what happened to Horus, I'd imagine the result puts it out of consideration for Abbadon. Horus was entitled to power, and that pride was his Achilles Heel. Abbadon knows that the gods hang you with the power that they give you, or they let you think you stole or earned.

Well no the Emperor definitely stole the power, Chaos didn't actually want him to, because the Emperor was supposed to tell humanity about the Chaos gods in return for his powers. Chaos would have taken the Imperium far more easily if the Emperor had done that. Plus he is the anathema so I doubt they'd give him a hand.

So say the Chaos Gods, and who wouldn't trust them to tell the unvarnished truth?

Again, I prefer the Interpretation that what the Emperor got on Molech was the 20 warp energies/souls for the Primarchs. The idea that he stole his power is gakky written and the sources for that being the case either have a very limited point of view, are literal demons or a corrupt and delusional traitor. While I like the HH books as a whole, it has some really weak written at certain points.

 Nurglitch wrote:
So say the Chaos Gods, and who wouldn't trust them to tell the unvarnished truth?

No only once source is from the Chaos Gods. Are you really suggesting that the Emperors servant, Horus, the red angel and Erebus all accidentally came to the same conclusion. Also the Emperor wiped the minds of Horus, the Khan, Fulgrim and the Lion just for no reason, on a planet where there is a direct rout to the Chaos Gods, in which Horus became god like with power after going through the gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, I prefer the Interpretation that what the Emperor got on Molech was the 20 warp energies/souls for the Primarchs. The idea that he stole his power is gakky written and the sources for that being the case either have a very limited point of view, are literal demons or a corrupt and delusional traitor. While I like the HH books as a whole, it has some really weak written at certain points.

Well there are two sources for this. One in the first heritic and one in the vengeful spirit. The first heretic states that he made the deal but refused later to tell humanity of the gods existence. the vengeful spirit says he stole the powers.

The power that he infused the Primarchs with is the only thing we know for sure that the Emperor got from Molech. Anything else is just speculation and/or Chaos deception.

 ikeulhu wrote:
The power that he infused the Primarchs with is the only thing we know for sure that the Emperor got from Molech. Anything else is just speculation and/or Chaos deception.

We don't even know that, we know he got power of some sort. I like to think he got knowledge to create the Primarchs as knowledge is power.

It has to be more than just knowledge though or why stop at 20. The most logical answer is he didn't make more because he couldn't. This suggests that he was limited by some resource or material. Likely what he stole from Molech is enough warp juice that was enough to animate 20 generals.

Horus thinking that his new powers are earned and that makes him superior to the Emperor sounds just like a chaos plot to puff Horus up even more and get him further on the team chaos train.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The first heretic states that he made the deal but refused later to tell humanity of the gods existence. the vengeful spirit says he stole the powers.

Those two views could be one and the same. Many would view receiving power from a deal that is then not honoured to be a form of stealing.

 ikeulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The first heretic states that he made the deal but refused later to tell humanity of the gods existence. the vengeful spirit says he stole the powers.

Those two views could be one and the same. Many would view receiving power from a deal that is then not honoured to be a form of stealing.

True but there is still both stand alone as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It has to be more than just knowledge though or why stop at 20. The most logical answer is he didn't make more because he couldn't. This suggests that he was limited by some resource or material. Likely what he stole from Molech is enough warp juice that was enough to animate 20 generals.

Horus thinking that his new powers are earned and that makes him superior to the Emperor sounds just like a chaos plot to puff Horus up even more and get him further on the team chaos train.

Well the Emperor could have made superior marines to the Astartes but decided not to, he only made them to fulfill a purpose, maybe he only thought he needed 20, or maybe the gods could only afford to give him 20. True, Horus says he stole them and he got them earnestly, that is completely possible that the Gods made him think that, but that still does not bring into dispute that the Emperor got powers there.

We have covered this in another thread and delvarious will not back down or see sense on it. To him what was said about The whole thing with the gods and some woman who didn’t see what the emperor did as apsolute gospel. Everyone else accepts that we don’t know what occurred exactly. He will not be told on this.

As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

Andykp wrote:
We have covered this in another thread and delvarious will not back down or see sense on it. To him what was said about The whole thing with the gods and some woman who didn’t see what the emperor did as apsolute gospel. Everyone else accepts that we don’t know what occurred exactly. He will not be told on this.

As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

No I didn't. I said the Emperor got powers but we don't know what type of powers he got. None of you's read the book, so you's all denied it happened, saying it was Chaos lying then I kept showing you's proof like Alivia Sureka etc. And 10 pages later you all agreed he got powers there but you's said we can't know what kind, forgetting that that was what I said from the beginning. Look at the thread, why had the last few pages been deleted from that thread lol Because I was right. people can still see what I originally said and see you all showing that you haven't read the book. The evidence is there, you shouldn't be bringing this up because I doubt you's want people looking at the thread.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
We have covered this in another thread and delvarious will not back down or see sense on it. To him what was said about The whole thing with the gods and some woman who didn’t see what the emperor did as apsolute gospel. Everyone else accepts that we don’t know what occurred exactly. He will not be told on this.

As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

No I didn't. I said the Emperor got powers but we don't know what type of powers he got. None of you's read the book, so you's all denied it happened, saying it was Chaos lying then I kept showing you's proof like Alivia Sureka etc. And 10 pages later you all agreed he got powers there but you's said we can't know what kind, forgetting that that was what I said from the beginning. Look at the thread, why had the last few pages been deleted from that thread lol Because I was right. people can still see what I originally said and see you all showing that you haven't read the book.

No idea why anything has been deleted, I know the mods removed a lot of your rude posts. U claimed you knew what powers he got and wouldn’t accept that the chaos gods or sureka might have been unreliable about it. U said you knew he stole or tricked his way to his super psychic powers but horus just took them, because that’s what the gods told him. U made the same arguments here as undid there. Everyone else made the same sensible counter arguments as appear here. This is a bit of a rerun situation.

I’ve said my thoughts on the original point so am going to bow out. Just didn’t want everyone wasting their time trying explain this to you again.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
We have covered this in another thread and delvarious will not back down or see sense on it. To him what was said about The whole thing with the gods and some woman who didn’t see what the emperor did as apsolute gospel. Everyone else accepts that we don’t know what occurred exactly. He will not be told on this.

As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

No I didn't. I said the Emperor got powers but we don't know what type of powers he got. None of you's read the book, so you's all denied it happened, saying it was Chaos lying then I kept showing you's proof like Alivia Sureka etc. And 10 pages later you all agreed he got powers there but you's said we can't know what kind, forgetting that that was what I said from the beginning. Look at the thread, why had the last few pages been deleted from that thread lol Because I was right. people can still see what I originally said and see you all showing that you haven't read the book.

No idea why anything has been deleted, I know the mods removed a lot of your rude posts. U claimed you knew what powers he got and wouldn’t accept that the chaos gods or sureka might have been unreliable about it. U said you knew he stole or tricked his way to his super psychic powers but horus just took them, because that’s what the gods told him. U made the same arguments here as undid there. Everyone else made the same sensible counter arguments as appear here. This is a bit of a rerun situation.

I’ve said my thoughts on the original point so am going to bow out. Just didn’t want everyone wasting their time trying explain this to you again.

I never said I knew, this was litterally one of my first few comments:

"In this point Erebus could be telling a lie but the original point that the Emperor took powers from the same place on Molech is definitely not a lie. The point of a bargain vs taking the power is just the point I was making to your original point that you thought that the Emperor only stole the power rather than bargained for them, as there are more versions of that in the lore. That the Emperor went to Molech to get powers is the absolute, though what he got and how he got the powers isn't fact because the Emperor has never said what he got from Molech but its pretty obvious that he got powers to make the Primarch's."

So it'd be good if you stopped lying.

No I used common sense, that three completely different sources sharing neither bias accidentally came up with the same exact story and that its stated as fact in the book and the Emperor wiped the minds of the Lion, Khan, Fulgrim and Horus on the very place in which there is a gate to the chaos gods themselves and Horus got powers there that made him powerful enough to take on the emperor is fact. You's came to the conclusion that its implicit because you's all denied it happened in the first place and you's all only stated this as if Chaos were the only source stating that the Emperor got powers there. Again you take everything Oll said as gospel, but because it involved the Emperor then Sureka can't be trusted, even though the writer wrote her perspective as fact, not implicit, taken for granted. The Emperor went there, with Sureka, absolute fact. He went in a space ship that was a one way trip and managed to get back to earth, he got powers there and so did Horus. Sureka knew about how to open and close the gate, the Emperor left her to keep vigil and protect the gate. You's all just didn't actually read the book.

But I can't be bothered having this argument again.

Andykp wrote:
As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

I'm guessing you mean Abaddon. I like this idea, it would suit him. On the other hand, Abaddon has shown he is more than willing to collect powerful artefacts, so I wouldn't be surprised if he would try to take some power from Molech under his own terms.

 Haighus wrote:

Andykp wrote:
As for horus going there. I think it would a good novella plot but I think he’d go to destroy it or something else to show he was better than horus, and that arrogance would actually make him more like horus than before.

I'm guessing you mean Abaddon. I like this idea, it would suit him. On the other hand, Abaddon has shown he is more than willing to collect powerful artefacts, so I wouldn't be surprised if he would try to take some power from Molech under his own terms.

Yes i do sorry. Yep think del is on to something that it could an interesting plot. I think it’s about time that abandon to made into a demon prince too. I know he refuses it but the gods could do it if they wanted. That too could be interesting if he is bitter about being exalted. He is a character that could be fleshed out a lot in the coming years. And dear god, but does he need a new model.

I do like that he isn't a Daemon Prince, and he is already plenty bitter!

I think more meddling by the Gods would be good for his plot though, if they can all agree on something together... (which is also part of the issue with him being elevated to a Daemon Prince, and how he has avoided it against his will).

 Haighus wrote:
I do like that he isn't a Daemon Prince, and he is already plenty bitter!

I think more meddling by the Gods would be good for his plot though, if they can all agree on something together... (which is also part of the issue with him being elevated to a Daemon Prince, and how he has avoided it against his will).

Yeah I wouldn't want him to be a daemon prince. Daemon princes are a dime a dozen.

Would he even need to go to Molech to ascend to Daemonhood anyway? Like, doesn't he pretty much live on the frontier of Chaos itself, what with being in the Eye and all?

Besides, I don't forsee anything particularly interesting happening to Abaddon before GW decides what they are going to do with the other Daemon Primarchs.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Would he even need to go to Molech to ascend to Daemonhood anyway? Like, doesn't he pretty much live on the frontier of Chaos itself, what with being in the Eye and all?

Besides, I don't forsee anything particularly interesting happening to Abaddon before GW decides what they are going to do with the other Daemon Primarchs.

this is a good point, during the time from the failed siege to the rise of the Black Legion Abbaddon explored the warp in the eye, it's possiable he's already done an equivilant journy.

If the portal was left accessible after the Heresy perhaps Sureka travelled back there to make sure the portal was closed for good. She had the means but a rather large taloned hand stopped her last tiime.

It's kind of a neat example of how the Chaos Gods corrupted Horus. I mean, who would go to such convoluted lengths to do anything? Right?!

Like take the 20 Primarchs each made for a purpose macguffin. It's entirely possible that they were made for multiple purposes, by multiple contributors.

If Abaddon would choose daemonhood, it would have to be in pretty extreme situation. Like if he was leading a Black Crusade and on a cusp of a significant victory, but is confronted by Guilliman. And as they duel, it will become apparent that Guilliman is gonna win and ruin Abaddon's plans, and at that point the gods will whisper to him and promise the victory if he just accept the daemonhood. And he might, and then crush Guilliman.

 Crimson wrote:
If Abaddon would choose daemonhood, it would have to be in pretty extreme situation. Like if he was leading a Black Crusade and on a cusp of a significant victory, but is confronted by Guilliman. And as they duel, it will become apparent that Guilliman is gonna win and ruin Abaddon's plans, and at that point the gods will whisper to him and promise the victory if he just accept the daemonhood. And he might, and then crush Guilliman.

In that fight, my money is still on Bobby G. We have more than a few examples of Primarchs winning against demon princes and with one exception, only a Primarch has killed another Primarch.

HoundsofDemos wrote:


In that fight, my money is still on Bobby G. We have more than a few examples of Primarchs winning against demon princes and with one exception, only a Primarch has killed another Primarch.

Abaddon is already insanely powerful as a mere marine and we're talking about all four gods powering him. And narratively he would have to win in that situation or it would be a stupid story.

Plus abbadon has drach’nyen the blade that can literally kill the emperor and if he were to somehow release the Deamon inside... game over bobby g

Any story is only as good as it's writing, if the characterization and dialogue is handled well Abaddon coming up short isn't inherently a bad story. For all that he has accomplished, he's not a Primarch and never will be.