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Hey folks!

I was once an avid 40k player that hasn't played since 5th edition, and a friend is trying to pull me back in. I'd originally fallen in love with Orks, but switched to Dark Eldar after my pink orks were getting poor painting scores in tournaments and impacting my overall scoring.



I briefly poked my head into the game in 6th or 7th edition, but lost interest when I saw that everything I loved about Orks had been nerfed - Ghazghkull wasn't an HQ anymore, deff rollas got nerfed, boarding planks got nerfed, ablative wound nobs and troop nobs got nerfed. Not to mention thematically horrible things like Eldar and Necrons in the same force org (or even Eldar and Dark Eldar), and I stepped back out again and wrote 40k off as too complicated to re-learn. I played 3rd Edition Dark Eldar through 5th edition, swapped out my wych coven and Asdrubiel Vect for an MSU Darklight and Venom spam list when the 5th edition codex hit, and enjoyed being evil so much that I wrote an entire tactica on the frame of mind for winning with Dark Eldar.

*I enjoyed Orks because they were fun, funny, enjoyable to throw en masse into combat, and I got to scream "WAAAUGH!" from time to time. I didn't enjoy Orks because they took forever to move and roll dice for.
*I enjoyed Dark Eldar because they were absolutely lethal, glass cannon, alpha strike shock and awe, surgical disaster that people didn't think were competitive. My 9 Venom / 3 ravager list had a ton of dice to roll too.

In the few days I've been exploring the world of 40k (as an MEQ hater), I've read that Orks are a future unknown, Dark Eldar got worse (Why on earth would they take out my personal favorite, Baron Sathonyx?!?) when they were already a challenging army...so if I have to start over, which I probably do because I didn't keep any models, I'd welcome advice on what might fit my playstyle - both race and a brief description of what sort of army I should think about building. Is MSU still a thing? Did vehicles go out of favor to be replaced by foot sloggers again?

Advice would be welcome

Orks are getting a new codex this month and have new vehicles to replace the role of the old buggy.

And every army lost special characters that didn't have models during 6th. It was a sad time for everyone.

It seems like there was never an edition of w40k where eldar were not a good army to play with. And now the game designers gave multiple options to play DE with eldar, DE and eldar as a special brand of new eldar etc. So you would feel right at home, well aside for the baron, am not sure DE have access to barons anymore.

Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Dark Eldar are one of the best armies in the entire game at the moment. Definitely not a bad choice, although they continue to be as fast and fragile as ever.Harlequins are also a faster. more fragile and more assault-oriented Eldar faction.

Orks are a wild card. Their codex is out in somewhere around 2-3 weeks from now. They're getting a number of new models, especially vehicles. No one really knows what will be good, but it's a safe bet that Orks will have at least a few strong army builds.There might even be a good Ork army that doesn't have to drown people in models and dice.

DEldar are exceptionally strong right now; Kabals and Haemonculus Covens show up at top tables and even Wych Cults aren't bad. I don't really know the specifics on how they work because I personally hate all things pointy ears but my understanding is that the vehicles are quite competitive and do get used.

Wait until the Ork codex lands, buy both it & the DE codex, read them through & decide wich army calls to you the loudest. WHY it calls to you isn't important. Build that army Then build the other one.

Slaanesh Daemons, because they are fun, funny, enjoyable to throw en masse into combat, and you get to scream from time to time. Also because they are absolutely lethal, glass cannon, shock and awe, surgical disaster that people don't think are competitive.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
Dark Eldar are one of the best armies in the entire game at the moment. Definitely not a bad choice, although they continue to be as fast and fragile as ever.Harlequins are also a faster. more fragile and more assault-oriented Eldar faction.

Orks are a wild card. Their codex is out in somewhere around 2-3 weeks from now. They're getting a number of new models, especially vehicles. No one really knows what will be good, but it's a safe bet that Orks will have at least a few strong army builds.There might even be a good Ork army that doesn't have to drown people in models and dice.

What turned me off from rejoining 40k in 7th was that *MY* Ork Army...Ghazghkull's Harem...got completely invalidated as a possible army composition. Everything about it was literally nerfed. I didn't want to buy new models, I wanted to play with what I had, and with Ghazghkull becoming a Lord of War instead of an HQ, where Ghazghkull was literally the reason I loved Orks, I was pissed.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?

People tend to get hysterical over the fact that "Imperium Soup" is powerful because it lets you have a massive amount of CP. Also several codexes are simply not viable to be run solo due to how they are structured (e.g. Custodes, Grey Knights and Harlequins).

Dark Eldar are still somewhat of a Glass Cannon, they have multiple viable builds.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Slaanesh Daemons, because they are fun, funny, enjoyable to throw en masse into combat, and you get to scream from time to time. Also because they are absolutely lethal, glass cannon, shock and awe, surgical disaster that people don't think are competitive.

Low model count? High model count? Any chance you can point me at a battle report or two? The friend trying to get me back into 40k was pointing me at Demons; I think primarily because there are lots of cheap Nurgle things for sale on ebay or something. I need a new frame of reference for them - I remember Demons meaning Obliterators, Defilers, Horrors, little zombies, Demon Princes, and all of it was universally something Dark Eldar could laugh off of the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?

People tend to get hysterical over the fact that "Imperium Soup" is powerful because it lets you have a massive amount of CP. Also several codexes are simply not viable to be run solo due to how they are structured (e.g. Custodes, Grey Knights and Harlequins).

Dark Eldar are still somewhat of a Glass Cannon, they have multiple viable builds.

Grey Knights aren't viable anymore? Good heavens; GK spam was my bane. Psycannons everywhere and AV10 and AV11 open-topped vehicles across my whole army. Tournaments were 40% Space Wolf Longfang/Razorback spam, 40% Grey Knight Psycannon spam, and 20% other armies.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Slaanesh Daemons, because they are fun, funny, enjoyable to throw en masse into combat, and you get to scream from time to time. Also because they are absolutely lethal, glass cannon, shock and awe, surgical disaster that people don't think are competitive.

Low model count? High model count? Any chance you can point me at a battle report or two? The friend trying to get me back into 40k was pointing me at Demons; I think primarily because there are lots of cheap Nurgle things for sale on ebay or something. I need a new frame of reference for them - I remember Demons meaning Obliterators, Defilers, Horrors, little zombies, Demon Princes, and all of it was universally something Dark Eldar could laugh off of the table.

Daemons are pretty high model count since their troops are cheap per model. Defilers are still crap. Oblits are in the CSM codex (they no longer have the DAEMON faction keyword) and are good. Daemon Princes are one of the better MCs right now, especially since you can run up to 9 of them in a Tournament list.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
Dark Eldar are one of the best armies in the entire game at the moment. Definitely not a bad choice, although they continue to be as fast and fragile as ever.Harlequins are also a faster. more fragile and more assault-oriented Eldar faction.

Orks are a wild card. Their codex is out in somewhere around 2-3 weeks from now. They're getting a number of new models, especially vehicles. No one really knows what will be good, but it's a safe bet that Orks will have at least a few strong army builds.There might even be a good Ork army that doesn't have to drown people in models and dice.

What turned me off from rejoining 40k in 7th was that *MY* Ork Army...Ghazghkull's Harem...got completely invalidated as a possible army composition. Everything about it was literally nerfed. I didn't want to buy new models, I wanted to play with what I had, and with Ghazghkull becoming a Lord of War instead of an HQ, where Ghazghkull was literally the reason I loved Orks, I was pissed.

I don't really know what that is, but Ghazghkull Thraka is a HQ now.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Grey Knights aren't viable anymore? Good heavens; GK spam was my bane. Psycannons everywhere and AV10 and AV11 open-topped vehicles across my whole army. Tournaments were 40% Space Wolf Longfang/Razorback spam, 40% Grey Knight Psycannon spam, and 20% other armies.

GK are not just unviable, they are literally the worst army in the game, period. Even the remaining Index armies outclass them by miles. GK are overpriced, understatted and too fragile for their cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
I don't really know what that is, but Ghazghkull Thraka is a HQ now.

That might change in the codex, he might become a Rowboat Girlyman style LoW.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

Grey Knights aren't viable anymore? Good heavens; GK spam was my bane. Psycannons everywhere and AV10 and AV11 open-topped vehicles across my whole army. Tournaments were 40% Space Wolf Longfang/Razorback spam, 40% Grey Knight Psycannon spam, and 20% other armies.

Grey Knights are the worst faction in the game by a large margin. Space Marines and Terminators in general are on the weak side right now, and GK just take most of the Space Marines weaknesses and magnify them even more.

The "solo codex" thing is because the ally system in 8th ed makes it really easy and therefore optimal to ally several factions together into a single army. Take the best of both worlds, so to speak. Dark Eldar need to do that less because they've got a lot going for them and have fewer weaknesses to shore up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

meleti wrote:
I don't really know what that is, but Ghazghkull Thraka is a HQ now.

That might change in the codex, he might become a Rowboat Girlyman style LoW.

It could change. I can't think of a codex where units moved categories between index and codex, but it's not straight up impossible obviously. Would imply a major redesign of Ghazghkull into more of a Daemon Primarch tier figure than an Abaddon tier figure, I suppose.

meleti wrote:
It could change. I can't think of a codex where units moved categories between index and codex, but it's not straight up impossible obviously. Would imply a major redesign of Ghazghkull into more of a Daemon Primarch tier figure than an Abaddon tier figure, I suppose.

Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers initially were made Elite only in the CSM codex, although errata changed them back to being Troops for Emperors Children and World Eaters.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
I don't really know what that is, but Ghazghkull Thraka is a HQ now.

That might change in the codex, he might become a Rowboat Girlyman style LoW.

Unless Gazzy gets a Primork model he's unlikely to become a LOW. As he is now he's more comparable to Imotekh the Stormlord, who was also a LOW in 7th and was moved to the more appropriate HQ slot in 8th.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?

The game is quite a bit different from 5th. The Dark Eldar are the Drukhari now. Army construction allows for allied units. Which the online community derisively calls soup armies. GW just refers to them as Allies. Overall most top level competitive lists use some level of allies. Mostly to farm Command points so they can power your power units. Eldar Soup for instance uses a Craftworld/Drukhari/ Harlequin build. The Drukhari just happen to be a codex strong enough to compete with out using allies. Their codex is fairly recent and has placed well in my tournaments. If you download the best coast pairings ap you can get a lot more information of the top lists and their placement in the ITC (Frontline Gaming) behind the pay wall. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the Drukhari currently to give you anything beyond that.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?

The game is quite a bit different from 5th. The Dark Eldar are the Drukhari now. Army construction allows for allied units. Which the online community derisively calls soup armies. GW just refers to them as Allies. Overall most top level competitive lists use some level of allies. Mostly to farm Command points so they can power your power units. Eldar Soup for instance uses a Craftworld/Drukhari/ Harlequin build. The Drukhari just happen to be a codex strong enough to compete with out using allies. Their codex is fairly recent and has placed well in my tournaments. If you download the best coast pairings ap you can get a lot more information of the top lists and their placement in the ITC (Frontline Gaming) behind the pay wall. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the Drukhari currently to give you anything beyond that.

Any chance you have a handy link to a description of command points, what they are for, and how allied units create (more of them?) command point bonuses?

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Hi Dash,

I've heard a lot about the Dark Eldar being one of the best mono codexs. I would imagine they are would be easier to play now than back then.

Could you elaborate for me? Are other codices ... not .... good for playing solo? From a 5th edition frame of reference, the only allies were chaos + demons, Space marines with (space marines), IG + Jokaero and weird stuff.

Are Dark Eldar still the alpha-striking, terrifying, surgical glass cannon carnage machine that they were or have they been power-crept or styled into antiquity?

The game is quite a bit different from 5th. The Dark Eldar are the Drukhari now. Army construction allows for allied units. Which the online community derisively calls soup armies. GW just refers to them as Allies. Overall most top level competitive lists use some level of allies. Mostly to farm Command points so they can power your power units. Eldar Soup for instance uses a Craftworld/Drukhari/ Harlequin build. The Drukhari just happen to be a codex strong enough to compete with out using allies. Their codex is fairly recent and has placed well in my tournaments. If you download the best coast pairings ap you can get a lot more information of the top lists and their placement in the ITC (Frontline Gaming) behind the pay wall. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with the Drukhari currently to give you anything beyond that.

Any chance you have a handy link to a description of command points, what they are for, and how allied units create (more of them?) command point bonuses?

Command Points are pool of points that are spent on Stragems which are a combination of various advantages (Like re-rolling 1 die or certain niche upgrades) that you have the option of using once per phase in matched play. (Unlimited in other forms)
You start with three and you get extra for each detachment. (force grouping, e.g. a Spearhead Detachment (1 HQ and 3 Heavy Support units)) Some detachments (notably troop heavy) create a larger number of points and certain armies, like Imperial Guard can form the high CP detachments for a lower cost. Causing many thoughts and much salt to be spilt when used with other low model count armies, like Imperial Knights.

Well that's two good armies to choose from right there: Orks are about to get a huge number of new models and a late-in-the-cycle codex release (meaning it will probably be good) and Dark Eldar are the best mono-faction in the game right now.

Do you still have both your old armies, or will you be starting from scratch?

 grouchoben wrote:
Well that's two good armies to choose from right there: Orks are about to get a huge number of new models and a late-in-the-cycle codex release (meaning it will probably be good) and Dark Eldar are the best mono-faction in the game right now.

Do you still have both your old armies, or will you be starting from scratch?

I'd given everything to someone to sell on my behalf, and e-mailed him the other day to ask what he has left so I can see if I can make an army out of it. Hopefully I'll find out Monday.

Every unit in the game now has words in it's profile to describe it called keywords. The keywords define which armies they belong to and what abilities can affect them.

The Force organization chart has been replaced with detachments. Which for matched play, points based competitive play, is 3 detachments at 2000 points. There are 12 different types, all with different requirements. The battalion detachment requires 2 HQs and 3 Troops. All of your detachments in your army must share a common keyword like Imperium or Aeldari . The detachments themselves must have a narrower keyword like Drukhari or Blood Angels.

Each of these detachment gives you command points, the battalion for example after FAQ give +5, added to the other detachments and your base 3 gives you your command pool. These points are used to pay for stratagems that allow you to do cool things and activated special abilities. Here are some examples of the Drukhari strategems:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/30/codex-drukhari-preview-stratagemsgw-homepage-post-3/

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Every unit in the game now has words in it's profile to describe it called keywords. The keywords define which armies they belong to and what abilities can affect them.

The Force organization chart has been replaced with detachments. Which for matched play, points based competitive play, is 3 detachments at 2000 points. There are 12 different types, all with different requirements. The battalion detachment requires 2 HQs and 3 Troops. All of your detachments in your army must share a common keyword like Imperium or Aeldari . The detachments themselves must have a narrower keyword like Drukhari or Blood Angels.

Each of these detachment gives you command points, the battalion for example after FAQ give +5, added to the other detachments and your base 3 gives you your command pool. These points are used to pay for stratagems that allow you to do cool things and activated special abilities. Here are some examples of the Drukhari strategems:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/30/codex-drukhari-preview-stratagemsgw-homepage-post-3/

Interesting. It looks like they took what used to be wargear and turned them into strategems? Crucible of Malediction was a once per game 5 point wargear; shattershard was a flamer template...are those now free, and you just elect to spend command points on the strategem?

Yes

 grouchoben wrote:
Well that's two good armies to choose from right there: Orks are about to get a huge number of new models and a late-in-the-cycle codex release (meaning it will probably be good) and Dark Eldar are the best mono-faction in the game right now.

Do you still have both your old armies, or will you be starting from scratch?

I wouldn't count on orks being good. The army as a whole has structural issue with 8th ed that makes it hard to work and from what codex has been leaked so far looks more like that while index vs gap decreases compared to index vs index ork power actually drops down. Codex is buffing orks less than other codexes buffed their respective units. Rest of the codex needs to be pretty damn awesome to compensate.

Structural issues? What do you mean?

 grouchoben wrote:
Structural issues? What do you mean?

Like how to get them worth the points. You can't for example make boyz much better than they are now(W2 etc makes no sense). You can't even make them CHEAPER because there's no room on lower end and you can already fill your deployment zone so even if you would make 4 pts boyz you wouldn't be able to fit them on board. And as it is all boyz can do is sit on objectives and hope something survives before they are wiped out. When semi-decent gunline shoots 50-60 models off a turn you are looking at wipeout as given.

Then comes into the issue you don't cause damage. You don't get into combat vs gunlines as they shoot them off the board. 240 boyz swarming forward? Not a problem. If you get by miracle 2 dozen or so(out of 240) alive that's not enough to clear through screens and cause damage to main units(and that's if they reach target alive). Shooting at BS5+ with hefty amount of -1 to hit things is laughable at best. GW can't exactly start giving basic boyz assault 6 rokkit launchas now can they? And how to balance that? BS5+? They are screwed vs -1 to hit. BS6? Non -1 are going to get hurt vs orks then.

So we end up with units that can't survive the typical firepower, can't be made sufficiently cheap to survive that, doesn't reach h2h in sufficient numbers to actually make a punch and doesn't shoot well.


(and for some bizzare reason GW instead went for double nerf to the boyz which already were mediocre army to begin with)

In edition of gunlines and fast elite h2h punch characters army that lacks those is screwed. Oh and lack of soup in edition of "soup is king" also hurts.

Oh and orks are army that encourages MSU rather than deathstar but strategems encourage deathstar style so discontent right there.

...Orks encourage MSU? You mean the army who's primary troop choice has two abilities that depend on having large units to work?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
...Orks encourage MSU? You mean the army who's primary troop choice has two abilities that depend on having large units to work?

Agreed, that makes no sense.

I think the main problem is that the game is now far too killy for "basic" troops to stand a chance of surviving past turn 3. Which means you HAVE to take 180 boyz just to camp objectives. And out of 30 boyz how many are realistically going to make it to combat?