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Ok, this may get a bit longwinded but I’ll try to stay focused. And I apologize in advance for any errors, english is not my first language and my autocorrect is set up for swedish.

I like the system with command points but I feel the current system of getting your starting points is a bit illogical. To me the command points is a measure of how well your army works as a whole and how well the different parts work together as intended. The most optimal army in this regard should be a balanced army using a standard mix of basic troops together with elite elements to get a fighting force that can deal with a wide range of threats. A good exemple of this would be a Brigade or a Battalion from a single faction. Deviations from the standard army (heavily skewed toward one aspect of warfare, including allies, using multiple forces with their own commanders et.c.) should reduce the army’s ability to work as a coherent whole and reduce its effectiveness in fighting as a single force.

However, with the current system players get awarded for taking as many detachments as possible and it doesn’t matter which faction they are from and this doesn’t seem right to me. I would like to propose a different system to generate command points that I hope will be fairer and make for a more enjoyable gaming experience. Ok, here it goes.

Each army start with 15 command points and the warlord has to be chosen from the detachment worth most points (or powerlevel if that is used). Whenever a detachment is added to the army this will reduce the number of command points the army get to start with.

Brigade: -0 (-1 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Battalion: -1 (-2 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Patrol: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Auxiliary support: 1- (-3 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Vanguard: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Spearhead: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Outrider: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Supreme command: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Super-heavy det.: -1 (-3 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Super-heavy aux.: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Air wing: -2 (-4 if faction is different to your warlords faction)
Fortification: -1 (-2 if faction is different to your warlords faction)

The starting value and the different modifiers can of course be changed, it is the principle I wanted to show. I feel this could make for more balanced games since it allows players to build whatever armies they want while giving an advantage to players limiting themselves to single factions and balanced armes. And it would give equal access to command points, not just to the armies with cheap troops.

What do you think, could it work? And what would you change to make it even better?



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Ok, now it is back as before. Hope anyone finds it interesting. And sorry if this has been suggested before, I haven’t read too many pages back.

I think Xenomancers (hopefully I've spelled that correctly) suggested something similar a while back. I think losing more CPs for taking allied detachments is definitely a good idea.

I don't necessarily object to this system, but I think you'd have to reconsider quite a few existing stratagems. e.g. the Imperial Knight ones seem balanced around the idea that you won't be able to use may in a game (hence the problem with their being able to freely ally in IG CP batteries). So they'd probably need to be adjusted.

The only other thing that's a bit weird is that you'd probably end up with fewer CPs in higher point games, even if you took no allies, which seems a little counter-intuitive.

Compared to the current system, I think this is fine and I can't see anything particularly objectionable (outside of the aforementioned issue that a few stratagems may need their prices adjusted accordingly).


However, I find myself asking whether any of this is really worthwhile. The detachment/CP system in general just seems unnecessarily complicated. It's actually one of the few cases where I prefer Age of Sigmar's system where you have to take a Leader (HQ) and 3 Battleline (Troop) units, and then after that you can basically just take whatever you want. You then start with 1CP plus an extra CP for each unspent 50pts in your list, and then you get 1CP each turn.

Now, granted, these would probably need to be tweaked a little for 40k (which is more CP-intensive), but there just seems to be a lot less faffing around involved with AoS's system.

Well, that is intresting alternative.. I totally agree that the warlord should be taken from the most valuable detachment. Me and my buddies have been thinking, that command points should be counted from points value (5cmd points/ 1000pts).

I'd suggested something similar in the "what do we think of the faq" thread, although instead of a flat 15 starting CPs I'd suggested 3-4 per 500 points of game size (not army size, to avoid the dumb scenarios where someone loses a big chunk of CPs because they don't want to swap a combi-plasma for a combi-grav gun to exactly hit 1500 or whatever).

I like the basic approach, for whatever that's worth.

In my opinion I think that most of the detachments should be removed and boiled down to patrol, battalion, and brigade. Seeing as how the slot specific detachments got nerfed by not providing more CP after battalions got an increase.

I'd say yes, every player starts with the same amount of CP whatever it may be. I think most can say that's fair. Then the cost of stratagems can be adjusted.

At the same though I can see why if everyone got the same number of CP now that they'd want those detachments for their bike army for example. And to this I say I would prefer troops to matter

But as far as allies go, I feel that allies should be restricted to patrol detachments and Super heavy auxiliary detachments. Sure maybe allied detachments can reduce your overall pool of CP seeing as how pulling units from an additional army can be an advantage over say Necrons.

And how would you account for various armies that don't follow battalion/brigade such as Dark Eldar?

I think any plan where you start with a bunch and burn them down is flawed. I like to think of command points as a commander’s brilliance or inspiration as they manipulate the battlefield. Consistent with that view I’d prefer CP to be generated each turn (like in Kill Team). It reflects your commander being only able to micromanage so much at once, rather than blowing 17 points on turn 1 then having a nap.

Logical generators are the commanders themselves, supplemented by the type of force they’re commanding. If they command a force familiar to them, it’s easy for them so they get more CP.

mightymconeshot wrote:
And how would you account for various armies that don't follow battalion/brigade such as Dark Eldar?

Actually, Dark Eldar almost always use Battalions, since their own unique detachment was indirectly nerfed to hell a week or so after it was first released.

(It initially had more required units than a Battalion, but gave an extra CP in return. Now it needs more mandatory units than a Battalion... and gives fewer CPs.)


In any case, I'd probably try to fix the problem by making the Dark Eldar codex less crap in this regard. Someone on the GW design team - you know who you are - thinks that the way to solve any problem is to split an army up. it was done to just about every faction in WHFB, it was done to Harlequins, it was done to Grey Knights, and now it's been done to Dark Eldar.

There are simply not enough units to justify turning it into 3 separate subfactions that can't exist within one another's detachments. If anything, it just highlights how shallow the respective subfactions are. Outside of vehicles, Kabal has, what, 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice. No Elites, no Fast Attack, and no Heavy Support choices outside of vehicles.

And this is before we get into other stuff, like the fact that you could replace an Archon with a watercress sandwich and it would only improve your army.

Put simply, the DE codex shouldn't be a barrier to improving the detachment/CP system. Rather, improvements in the detachment/CP system should be an incentive to rectify the blisteringly awful design decisions in the DE codex.

This is a lot like my suggestion. Thought I think it's too punitive.

batallions and brigades need to be treated exactly the same. Most armies can't feild brigades - you can't punish them for that.

I do feel like -1 for additional batallions is fine.

I also think the allied detachment negatives are too harsh - a simple additional -1 per allied detachment would be fine I think.

As stated in your post though - the values can change - but can the princible work? Yeah - absolutely. It would work better.



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mightymconeshot wrote:
And how would you account for various armies that don't follow battalion/brigade such as Dark Eldar?

For armies with special detachements (like dark eldars 3x patrol) you make a special rule that those special detachments are -0. Or whatever you determine to be fair.



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Sorcererbob wrote:
I think any plan where you start with a bunch and burn them down is flawed. I like to think of command points as a commander’s brilliance or inspiration as they manipulate the battlefield. Consistent with that view I’d prefer CP to be generated each turn (like in Kill Team). It reflects your commander being only able to micromanage so much at once, rather than blowing 17 points on turn 1 then having a nap.

Logical generators are the commanders themselves, supplemented by the type of force they’re commanding. If they command a force familiar to them, it’s easy for them so they get more CP.

That works in a small game with 5 models each like in kill team. It will not work in a game that is typically played with 40-50 models per side that also scales up to unlimited points.


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 fraser1191 wrote:
In my opinion I think that most of the detachments should be removed and boiled down to patrol, battalion, and brigade. Seeing as how the slot specific detachments got nerfed by not providing more CP after battalions got an increase.

I'd say yes, every player starts with the same amount of CP whatever it may be. I think most can say that's fair. Then the cost of stratagems can be adjusted.

At the same though I can see why if everyone got the same number of CP now that they'd want those detachments for their bike army for example. And to this I say I would prefer troops to matter

But as far as allies go, I feel that allies should be restricted to patrol detachments and Super heavy auxiliary detachments. Sure maybe allied detachments can reduce your overall pool of CP seeing as how pulling units from an additional army can be an advantage over say Necrons.

Reasonable thoughts I think. As far as matched play goes. They could make a stipulation like (only allied patrol detachments allowed) or something like that. Don't know if it's necessary. What is important though is everyone getting onboard and deciding they would prefer a system like this as opposed to what we have now (which is basically the dumbest design possible).

Sorcererbob wrote:
I think any plan where you start with a bunch and burn them down is flawed. I like to think of command points as a commander’s brilliance or inspiration as they manipulate the battlefield. Consistent with that view I’d prefer CP to be generated each turn (like in Kill Team). It reflects your commander being only able to micromanage so much at once, rather than blowing 17 points on turn 1 then having a nap.

Logical generators are the commanders themselves, supplemented by the type of force they’re commanding. If they command a force familiar to them, it’s easy for them so they get more CP.

As long as it was limited to a reasonable number of CPs l think that's a very good idea. I also think there's some merit to the charge that it could break at higher point values, and someone will suggest that it still favors horde armies over elite ones, not sure how to handle that. ...and then how to handle it when a warlord gets sniped out.

It also suggests a "use em or lose em" mechanic so CC armies don't build up a big surplus and then blow it all when they close in, but that could easily draw a lawsuit from Privateer Press for being too similar to their Focus system.