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I've read in a couple of topics that in some players' scene, the Shadespire/NightVault game has drawn power gamers away from AoS.
I had an interest in the game since it's more portable than regular AoS/40k and I can build the core box forces to introduce players.

But if the game is essentially PowerGaming Deluxe, I can find that easily enough w/o having to drop $60 USD.
Anyone care to expand on the comments that inspired my question?
Thanks.

Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

Thanks for that. For some reason I was thinking the gangs came with pre-built card decks (i.e., every time you face the human chaos guys they have a stock deck of human chaos stuff plus maybe some generic cards that every gang could play).

 privateer4hire wrote:
Thanks for that. For some reason I was thinking the gangs came with pre-built card decks (i.e., every time you face the human chaos guys they have a stock deck of human chaos stuff plus maybe some generic cards that every gang could play).

I know the core sets come with prebuilt starter decks for the different teams. Then they have a 3rd set of extra cards to get you started with making custom decks. I can't remember is the side expansions are set up that way as well or not (only bought one).

As for the cards themselves, there are some that are specific for each team (the cards marked specifically for the Warrior Chamber Stormcast can't be used by anyone else, not even the Sacrosanct Stormcast team). All team specific cards are packed with their respective teams, so you don't need to but another box for those. Then there are generic cards that everyone can use, and they are spread through every set with few reprints between sets.

Cards are split into either Faction or Generic. Faction cards can only be played with that specific faction and Generic cards can work in any deck. Each warband comes with set cards so if you want all the cards you need to buy every warband or buy the warband that has a specific card you want.

The issue with the game is that there is only 1 real way to play each faction. Especially at the competitive level. If you see a Stormcast faction you can expect a highly defensive game with lots of cards that push the factions apart. If you see the Oruk you can expect to see an in-your-face style of play. If you have no counter to this kind of play you will at best have a hard time, at worst have no chance of winning.

There are also Generic cards you will see in about 90% of games that make certain Victory cards absolutely worthless to have. I have not seen a deck with score objective cards since launch. No one plays them because you will be pushed off and if you cant score that card on that turn your losing both actions and points. No one plays Objectives, except Fyreslayers cause that's how they inspire.

It definitely drew most of our hardcore powergamers away.

auticus wrote:
It definitely drew most of our hardcore powergamers away.

Not surprising, "powergamers" thrive by chasing what is the strongest in the meta. This is a lot easier when all you need is the right warband and set of cards.

Very true and very accurate.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Cards are split into either Faction or Generic. Faction cards can only be played with that specific faction and Generic cards can work in any deck. Each warband comes with set cards so if you want all the cards you need to buy every warband or buy the warband that has a specific card you want.

The issue with the game is that there is only 1 real way to play each faction. Especially at the competitive level. If you see a Stormcast faction you can expect a highly defensive game with lots of cards that push the factions apart. If you see the Oruk you can expect to see an in-your-face style of play. If you have no counter to this kind of play you will at best have a hard time, at worst have no chance of winning.

There are also Generic cards you will see in about 90% of games that make certain Victory cards absolutely worthless to have. I have not seen a deck with score objective cards since launch. No one plays them because you will be pushed off and if you cant score that card on that turn your losing both actions and points. No one plays Objectives, except Fyreslayers cause that's how they inspire.

Just played my first 3 games last night. Figured the game out quickly. The score by standing on objectives being only 1 glory makes them pretty useless. It wastes an action/ can be countered/ does not cause any disruption. Or I can take an objective card that gives me a glory when I knock a champion out of action. I suppose it's more risky because they can kill your guys easier but striking first usually decides the victor here.

For my skaven I quickly figured out killing champions works better than capping objectives. So I removed the objective cards from my deck and added a lot more situational combat tricks that I can pull. Like have all my guys engaged at once. Or kill an enemy with the exact amount of damage to kill them. Or lose 3 guys in 1 turn. The game is so much fun though. My friend uses a tzeentch deck and he plays 100% to objectives and avoiding combat. Haven't faced him yet but soon we will see.

Question about shadespire, how valid are the single faction decks? Or is it like star wars where you can technicly play with 3 ships, but for real you need to buy half the model range to have two good lists?


Also how are mirrors as far as play expiriance? Is it first player always wins, because he gets to play his stuff first? Or are there some sort of balancing mechanics? Be it side boards or making people bring 2-3 decks, a bit like warmachine makes you bring 2-3 lists to play a game.

Well I am not an expert but I'd say in this case - all decks are not created equal in the starter kits.

The Nightvault sigmar cards are terrible IMO. However the skaven kits cards - even including the universal cards had everyone in the room wowing over them.

In regards to going first. There are 3 turns with 4 activation each and each players oscillate actions. It's not that big of an advantage. It works like sigmar where you roll after each turn to see who goes first again. Getting double turned could be really bad as they will get 2 consecutive actions BUT realistically the 4th activation in a turn is going to be your weakest because you likely played all your cards already.

It seems very fair game mechanics wise. Faction wise though - there is a pretty big disparity.

Its a GW game. If there wasn't a big faction disparity I'd very much be surprised.

 Xenomancers wrote:
. So I removed the objective cards from my deck and added a lot more situational combat tricks that I can pull. Like have all my guys engaged at once. Or kill an enemy with the exact amount of damage to kill them. Or lose 3 guys in 1 turn. The game is so much fun though. My friend uses a tzeentch deck and he plays 100% to objectives and avoiding combat. Haven't faced him yet but soon we will see.

If I read that right, it implies you removed your objective cards totally.. did you mean that you removed the "camping" objectives in your 12 card Objective deck?

I am also interested in the game, and have picked up the Magore Fiends set as well as a core.. the Fiends came with 2 card packs but I am not sure if the one with the character cards also contains an "starter deck" set of cards..

 porkuslime wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
. So I removed the objective cards from my deck and added a lot more situational combat tricks that I can pull. Like have all my guys engaged at once. Or kill an enemy with the exact amount of damage to kill them. Or lose 3 guys in 1 turn. The game is so much fun though. My friend uses a tzeentch deck and he plays 100% to objectives and avoiding combat. Haven't faced him yet but soon we will see.

If I read that right, it implies you removed your objective cards totally.. did you mean that you removed the "camping" objectives in your 12 card Objective deck?

I am also interested in the game, and have picked up the Magore Fiends set as well as a core.. the Fiends came with 2 card packs but I am not sure if the one with the character cards also contains an "starter deck" set of cards..

Yeah - I removed the camp objective cards.

Replaced them with cards like "if you take a hero out of action with a 1 damage weapon - gain 1 glory"

Not saying those camp cards are worthless - they are just much more useful for ranged armies. As ranged units don't waste an action for being there.

Go ahead and play a game with the starter deck (its the one that has the hero cards). You have to have 10 ploy cards (cards with the spell or sword symbol) 10 upgrade cards (cards with the gear symbol) and 12 objective I(these have gold backs) - I think there are some extras in the starter deck. After that game - after you see how everything works - open up the extra cards deck and replace the cards you don't like.

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

You could easily play the game without the cards as long as you knew the champion stats. It would be pretty hard to play without the models.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well I am not an expert but I'd say in this case - all decks are not created equal in the starter kits.

The Nightvault sigmar cards are terrible IMO. However the skaven kits cards - even including the universal cards had everyone in the room wowing over them.

In regards to going first. There are 3 turns with 4 activation each and each players oscillate actions. It's not that big of an advantage. It works like sigmar where you roll after each turn to see who goes first again. Getting double turned could be really bad as they will get 2 consecutive actions BUT realistically the 4th activation in a turn is going to be your weakest because you likely played all your cards already.

It seems very fair game mechanics wise. Faction wise though - there is a pretty big disparity.

So how many boxs does one have to buy to get a real deck? and what do people do with the models for the bad factions they will never play?

Doesn't the double turn mean some armies that are fast moving could just swarm objectives end of turn 1, then go first in turn 2 and just win on points, specially against slow armies. Or are there no slow armies in shadespire?

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

No, I would never get a game completed if we did that, .....but I would be wanting a soda

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

Incorrect. It's an LCG. You know what cards you're getting with each expansion and don't trade as you can only have one of each card in your deck. And you obviously need the models as you couldn't tell who's stat card belongs to who otherwise.

Karol wrote:
Question about shadespire, how valid are the single faction decks? Or is it like star wars where you can technicly play with 3 ships, but for real you need to buy half the model range to have two good lists?


Also how are mirrors as far as play expiriance? Is it first player always wins, because he gets to play his stuff first? Or are there some sort of balancing mechanics? Be it side boards or making people bring 2-3 decks, a bit like warmachine makes you bring 2-3 lists to play a game.

Your warband/deck is always single faction. you cannot mix from other warband, including the 2 different Stormcast ones. There are no side boards or multiple decks. Also its the best of 3 games so draws matter. If you don't get that turn 1 score card your whole deck could slow down. If you mulligan your hand you discard all of your cards and draw again and since you can only have 1 copy of a card you will never get to use/score with those cards during a game.

If you want access to ALL the cards in the game then you need to buy every single faction as each comes with spicific generic cards.

https://warhammerunderworlds.com/card-library/

Karol wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Well I am not an expert but I'd say in this case - all decks are not created equal in the starter kits.

The Nightvault sigmar cards are terrible IMO. However the skaven kits cards - even including the universal cards had everyone in the room wowing over them.

In regards to going first. There are 3 turns with 4 activation each and each players oscillate actions. It's not that big of an advantage. It works like sigmar where you roll after each turn to see who goes first again. Getting double turned could be really bad as they will get 2 consecutive actions BUT realistically the 4th activation in a turn is going to be your weakest because you likely played all your cards already.

It seems very fair game mechanics wise. Faction wise though - there is a pretty big disparity.

So how many boxs does one have to buy to get a real deck? and what do people do with the models for the bad factions they will never play?

Doesn't the double turn mean some armies that are fast moving could just swarm objectives end of turn 1, then go first in turn 2 and just win on points, specially against slow armies. Or are there no slow armies in shadespire?

You can get by with 1 deck. You just might not be able to go for certain builds. I cant speak for all the decks cause I havn't seen them.

The way the oscillation of actions work - your opponent will always be able to react to an objective capture unless you are the bottom of the 4th activation in a turn - in that case you can cap an objective just by moving to it and when the turn ends you score it if you have the objective card. Also - an important thing to note here is. You get points for killing champions - so if they cap 4 objectives and you kill all 4 of their champions - you are currently tied (assuming no other points were scored). Give it a try. If you want a strong army I'd go for Skaven or Tzeentch. Otherwise just pick whatever you want.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

You could easily play the game without the cards as long as you knew the champion stats. It would be pretty hard to play without the models.

Nah. You use 3-7 different types of nuts, and place a corresponding nut on or next to each stat card, telling you which nut each stat card belongs to. EZPZ. Different colors of construction paper. Cut shapes out of paper. Origami some animals.

The models are nothing more than tokens - as long as you can keep track of which stat card goes where, you're fine. Hell, use the stat cards as the models! Gameplay doesn't change.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

Incorrect. It's an LCG. You know what cards you're getting with each expansion and don't trade as you can only have one of each card in your deck. And you obviously need the models as you couldn't tell who's stat card belongs to who otherwise.

Nah. You use 3-7 different types of nuts, and place a corresponding nut on or next to each stat card, telling you which nut each stat card belongs to. EZPZ. Different colors of construction paper. Cut shapes out of paper. Origami some animals.

The models are nothing more than tokens - as long as you can keep track of which stat card goes where, you're fine. Hell, use the stat cards as the models! Gameplay doesn't change.

Could do the same thing with literally any miniature game. In fact - that's how we used to play fantasy war-hammer. Wed get construction paper and cut out blocks and ranks and write out what they were. Then have a battle. Models just represent things that can be substituted for things that can represent things. They are called miniature games because they chose to use miniatures instead of cards or nuts or cutt out cardboard to make the game more visually appealing.

Well yeah. It's more visually appealing. Not more playable.

Are ya saying shadespire is unplayable? I think it's got great play-ability and replay-ability. You can play 2-3 games an hours. It's great.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are ya saying shadespire is unplayable? I think it's got great play-ability and replay-ability. You can play 2-3 games an hours. It's great.

Not at all. It's a lot of fun! I'm saying the models don't make it more playable. They're less needed than the cards. I'm agreeing that it's more of a card game than a miniatures game. The miniatures part is even more board game than miniatures game, as the models could be replaced with tokens and the game would play the same. But it is more visually appealing having the models.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are ya saying shadespire is unplayable? I think it's got great play-ability and replay-ability. You can play 2-3 games an hours. It's great.

Not at all. It's a lot of fun! I'm saying the models don't make it more playable. They're less needed than the cards. I'm agreeing that it's more of a card game than a miniatures game. The miniatures part is even more board game than miniatures game, as the models could be replaced with tokens and the game would play the same. But it is more visually appealing having the models.

Whats the difference between a board game and a miniature game? I think the expectation of painting is one of the key factors - and this game has that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are ya saying shadespire is unplayable? I think it's got great play-ability and replay-ability. You can play 2-3 games an hours. It's great.

Not at all. It's a lot of fun! I'm saying the models don't make it more playable. They're less needed than the cards. I'm agreeing that it's more of a card game than a miniatures game. The miniatures part is even more board game than miniatures game, as the models could be replaced with tokens and the game would play the same. But it is more visually appealing having the models.

Whats the difference between a board game and a miniature game? I think the expectation of painting is one of the key factors - and this game has that.

TL;DR : I've conflated miniatures game with wargaming - I would say any game that uses miniatures can be called a miniatures game, but that doesn't make it not a board game at the same time imo. This is a miniatures/board/card game, but if asked I'd just call it a board/card game as mechanically the models are just token representations of the cards.

Stream of consciousness post below (I wouldn't bother reading it, but I had this open for so long I didn't want to delete it)

I agree conceptually. The expectation of painting your 3-7 models is there for this game in a general sense (I don't expect it), and a requirement for tournament play. Outside of that, the mechanics of the whole thing strike me as more of a combination board/card game. We're not doing anything mechanically (in game) by wanting painted models, and to me it's all mechanical for the differences between board and minis games. I'm honestly having a hard time working out exactly how to word it from my head to the page as how I see the differences between board and miniature games, but this has a lot of board game elements to it (not least of all official printed boards lol). There's no terrain to it (at least there wasn't until recently, and I don't know how it works since I stopped playing earlier this year).

(Ten minutes later): Thinking about it, and doing a quick read of a couple threads on other sites pertaining to this very question, I think the lines are blurred fairly often. In this case, with us being unable to change anything about the models (again, mechanically, there's some great conversions out there!) or their stats, they're just tokens that you (possibly) want to paint. Maybe it's expectations, in that in things like warhammer there's an expectation of wysiwyg and in board games changing how the tokens look does nothing to alter their rules. Maybe it's something else. I guess it's not 100% definitive at present, unless there's something I'm overlooking (very possible, I sometimes overthink things).

So that's a good question. It's really giving me something to think about.

Honestly I feel like if GW didn't make this game, there's a very high chance there'd be no expectation of painting, as it could come with prepainted minis and it would still work the exact same, the strategies wouldn't change, nothing about the gameplay would be altered. So is the game itself a miniatures game just because you paint the tokens?

(Ten more minutes later): I guess I combined "miniatures games" and "wargaming" into one category in my head. I could call this a miniatures game, but now that I think of it this way, that distinction is meaningless. You can call any game that uses miniatures as tokens a miniatures game, but that's not really mechanical. Zombicide is probably a miniatures game, but it's not a wargame.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Are ya saying shadespire is unplayable? I think it's got great play-ability and replay-ability. You can play 2-3 games an hours. It's great.

Not at all. It's a lot of fun! I'm saying the models don't make it more playable. They're less needed than the cards. I'm agreeing that it's more of a card game than a miniatures game. The miniatures part is even more board game than miniatures game, as the models could be replaced with tokens and the game would play the same. But it is more visually appealing having the models.

Whats the difference between a board game and a miniature game? I think the expectation of painting is one of the key factors - and this game has that.

TL;DR : I've conflated miniatures game with wargaming - I would say any game that uses miniatures can be called a miniatures game, but that doesn't make it not a board game at the same time imo. This is a miniatures/board/card game, but if asked I'd just call it a board/card game as mechanically the models are just token representations of the cards.

Stream of consciousness post below (I wouldn't bother reading it, but I had this open for so long I didn't want to delete it)

I agree conceptually. The expectation of painting your 3-7 models is there for this game in a general sense (I don't expect it), and a requirement for tournament play. Outside of that, the mechanics of the whole thing strike me as more of a combination board/card game. We're not doing anything mechanically (in game) by wanting painted models, and to me it's all mechanical for the differences between board and minis games. I'm honestly having a hard time working out exactly how to word it from my head to the page as how I see the differences between board and miniature games, but this has a lot of board game elements to it (not least of all official printed boards lol). There's no terrain to it (at least there wasn't until recently, and I don't know how it works since I stopped playing earlier this year).

(Ten minutes later): Thinking about it, and doing a quick read of a couple threads on other sites pertaining to this very question, I think the lines are blurred fairly often. In this case, with us being unable to change anything about the models (again, mechanically, there's some great conversions out there!) or their stats, they're just tokens that you (possibly) want to paint. Maybe it's expectations, in that in things like warhammer there's an expectation of wysiwyg and in board games changing how the tokens look does nothing to alter their rules. Maybe it's something else. I guess it's not 100% definitive at present, unless there's something I'm overlooking (very possible, I sometimes overthink things).

So that's a good question. It's really giving me something to think about.

Honestly I feel like if GW didn't make this game, there's a very high chance there'd be no expectation of painting, as it could come with prepainted minis and it would still work the exact same, the strategies wouldn't change, nothing about the gameplay would be altered. So is the game itself a miniatures game just because you paint the tokens?

(Ten more minutes later): I guess I combined "miniatures games" and "wargaming" into one category in my head. I could call this a miniatures game, but now that I think of it this way, that distinction is meaningless. You can call any game that uses miniatures as tokens a miniatures game, but that's not really mechanical. Zombicide is probably a miniatures game, but it's not a wargame.

I always ask the tough questions...like me micro economics professor...Was pretty blown away when I asked him..."What is money...really?" lol.

I think you are right - the main reason we paint the models is because it's a GW game and the players we play with expect them to be painted. So really - it's a boardgame to some and a miniature game to others. (Mindblown)

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pancakey wrote:

AverageBoss wrote:
Its a combination of miniature and card game. Though all the cards are preset, so you can look up exactly what you are getting from each set.

Because it is half card game, you have to build a deck to play the game with, and that's where any power gaming would take place (as with any ccg).

This is %100 a CCG. You could used various salted nuts as your “models”!

You could easily play the game without the cards as long as you knew the champion stats. It would be pretty hard to play without the models.

Nah. You use 3-7 different types of nuts, and place a corresponding nut on or next to each stat card, telling you which nut each stat card belongs to. EZPZ. Different colors of construction paper. Cut shapes out of paper. Origami some animals.

The models are nothing more than tokens - as long as you can keep track of which stat card goes where, you're fine. Hell, use the stat cards as the models! Gameplay doesn't change.

Gaming with you would be fun, a game and snack at the same time. I would literally eat your armies