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I'm surprised people will believe the Inquisition about the Sensei being a Chaos plot. Is there anyone who thinks they are a reliable source? I don't. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader might be outdated, but it talks about the Sensei and Star Child. (It even had Table Top for the Sensei as champions of the Star Child). The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader was the best.



I'm willing to listen to everyone, but I just do not think the Inquisition is reliable.

Well, you can interpret the flavor text about the Sensei being a Chaos plot as a way for GW to terminate this storyline/part of the lore since they don't want to use it anymore.

Engrenages wrote:
Well, you can interpret the flavor text about the Sensei being a Chaos plot as a way for GW to terminate this storyline/part of the lore since they don't want to use it anymore.

3rd Edition was especially about unreliable narrators. The Inquisition was probably lying/wrong.

Both could be true, they could be the key to his resurrection while also being a Tzeenchian plot. His thing is schemes inside schemes, many of which are actually detrimental to his position at least to the outside eye.

The Emperor getting off the throne could cause as many problems as it might fix.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Both could be true, they could be the key to his resurrection while also being a Tzeenchian plot. His thing is schemes inside schemes, many of which are actually detrimental to his position at least to the outside eye.

The Emperor getting off the throne could cause as many problems as it might fix.

I do not think its possible that the Inquisition was right. They are lying and superstitious asshats who would deem the slightest thing Heresy with no proof in anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But that is my opinion.

Inquisitors vary wildly in philosophy and it is not nor has it ever been a monolithic organization. There a wide range of factions, some who would likely support the idea of getting the Big E off the throne and some that would be against it even if it wasn't a chaos plot. I also don't get the more recent Inquisition hate.

They have some of the best written fluff, are an interesting addition on the table top ( or were till 8th gutted them), and are one of the few truly blank canvas factions.

The Inquisitors are among the best informed individuals in the entire Imperium. They're guardians of many terrible secrets, privy to forbidden records and archives. Not that they couldn't still be wrong, it is just less likely than with many other people in the setting. And of course they could lie if it suits their agenda; in fact, they probably lie a lot, most of the Imperial dogma is basically lies.

 Crimson wrote:
The Inquisitors are among the best informed individuals in the entire Imperium. They're guardians of many terrible secrets, privy to forbidden records and archives. Not that they couldn't still be wrong, it is just less likely than with many other people in the setting. And of course they could lie if it suits their agenda; in fact, they probably lie a lot, most of the Imperial dogma is basically lies.

Yes. And I do not think they are reliable on the Sensei.



The Sensei weren’t “revealed” to be a Tzeentchian plot. The in-universe snippet in the 3rd Edition rulebook is from a HARD first person point of view of a fairly low level Inquisitor.

Third edition was VERY big on “question everything, no source has all the information.”

Saying that one snippet proves anything is nonsense.

Ultimately it 'really' isn't in any one way, it's just a story. So take your pick.

Incidentally Plague war suggests that the Emperor might be getting more active in the materium,Mortarian and a GUCO where discussing the matter.

BrianDavion wrote:
Incidentally Plague war suggests that the Emperor might be getting more active in the materium,Mortarian and a GUCO where discussing the matter.

Materium? Do you mean immaterium?

 ph34r wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Incidentally Plague war suggests that the Emperor might be getting more active in the materium,Mortarian and a GUCO where discussing the matter.

Materium? Do you mean immaterium?

Materium. There's been fluff recently that talks about the Emperor intervening in realspace through some means, kicking off various discussions about what 'dead' means.

I thought the Sensei were supposed to be his sons and they were hunted by the Inquisition because they represented a challenge to the powers that be in the Imperium.

They were his off spring not just sins and they were supported by the illuminati who wanted to kill the emperor so he could be reborn, star child style. So obviously they weren’t popular with the non star child believers who would see it as killing the emperor not resurrecting him.

Always thought it would be very 40k if they were right and if they got their way chaos would get a smacking but the twisted imperial creed wouldn’t let them so humanity was fighting a losing battle.

Game wise the sensei were similar to chaos champion and had similar war bands but with eldar and squats and things in not trolls and beastmen and skeletons.

From the Heresy series, it is implied that the Primarchs embody different aspects of the Emperor, and Vulkan's immortal/Pertpetual nature comes from Big E.
In which case, maybe him dying isnt a bad thing? That way he can be reborn. This also ties in with the beliefs of faction of the Inquisition.
Of course, how much bad stuff would happen when/if Big E dies and reincarnates is anyones guess!

I think one of the things about 40k (which is really hammered home by Black Library in the 30k series) is the concept of an 'Unreliable Narrator'. Every story/piece of lore is told from one persons point of view, or to back up that factions point of view. It might be 'true' from their stand point, but that is just one version of the 'truth'.
The Inquisition is a perfect example of that with its multiple conflicting factions that are working against each other as often (if not more often!) as they are working with each other.

In short, they might not be a reliable source, but who is? Any why do you decide that they are reliable? Because you like that version of the story? Because it makes more sense to you?
Neither of those are reliable.
Remember, there are people who think Chaos is/are the good guys!

I have the original Realms of Chaos books so the following is basically a distillation of the Sensei:

They are descendants of the Emperor, not necessarily just his direct sons.

The Emperor does not know of the Sensei. That is one of their other quirks. They are undetectable by psychic means, not because they are blanks but because their psychic signatures blend in harmoniously with the warp. If you think of psykers as being positive on a scale, with even normal humans having a slight psychic potential, and Pariahs as being negative on a scale, then Sensei would be 0. Completely neutral.

Also not all of the Emperor's descendants are Sensei. Only some are. Why is not known, but I assume it is something like a recessive trait that was only expressed in a fraction of the Emperor's offspring. Sensei have the key characteristics of:

1) Immortality. They do not age once they reach adulthood and do not die of old age though they can still be killed by violence or other means.

2) Psychic undetectability. As mentioned above.

3) Immunity to the negative emotions promoted by the Chaos gods. They simply do not feel the extremes of negative emotions that feed the Chaos gods. A Sensei can kill but does not do so out of fury. A Sensei can carouse and drink but does not feel the urge towards excess, and so on.

4) They have an instinctual urge to promote the old harmonious warp, and thus find themselves fighting oppression and situations that promote the emotions that feed the Chaos gods. Therefore they often end up as freedom fighters, pirates, vigilantes, revolutionaries, etc...

The fortuitous combination of genes the Sensei have inherited from the Emperor makes them very special. Their most important trait is their immortality. Although they can be killed they do not age, and possess amazing powers of recovery. They are also protected from the Chaos Powers, and the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded. A Sensei cannot experience hate, bitterness, or irrational anger, because these things are part of the disharmony of the Chaos Powers. They radiate natural confidence and harmony, and can even draw upon the energies of the warp to use their psychic powers. Sensei do not risk attracting daemons or other malicious psychic forces by using their powers. Being untainted by Chaos they are utterly invulnerable to the predations of the Chaos Powers. In fact because they harbour no trace of the emotions and concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers they are largely invisible to them.

p. 185, Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned

We see a similar kind of invisibility in the Yncarne in the Gathering Storm.
The Sensei were like Champions of the Star Child but their gifts available in the books were less overtly supernatural and might be just passed off as incredible skill. Things like WS or S bonus for example.
I would also personally imagine them to have powers of natural persuasion if they are to survive for any length of time in the 40K universe. Of course I'm sure the Inquisition might then accuse them of being with Slaanesh.

Just because an Inquisitor thinks he sees parallels between a Sensei group and a previously purged Tzeentch cult does not mean he is correct. The cult could have been set up deliberately to create that opinion I see Tzeentch definitely appreciating the irony of getting the Emperor's Imperium to persecute his own descendants, and thereby screwing up one genuine hope for humanity.

Iracundus wrote:
I have the original Realms of Chaos books so the following is basically a distillation of the Sensei:

They are descendants of the Emperor, not necessarily just his direct sons.

The Emperor does not know of the Sensei. That is one of their other quirks. They are undetectable by psychic means, not because they are blanks but because their psychic signatures blend in harmoniously with the warp. If you think of psykers as being positive on a scale, with even normal humans having a slight psychic potential, and Pariahs as being negative on a scale, then Sensei would be 0. Completely neutral.

Also not all of the Emperor's descendants are Sensei. Only some are. Why is not known, but I assume it is something like a recessive trait that was only expressed in a fraction of the Emperor's offspring. Sensei have the key characteristics of:

1) Immortality. They do not age once they reach adulthood and do not die of old age though they can still be killed by violence or other means.

2) Psychic undetectability. As mentioned above.

3) Immunity to the negative emotions promoted by the Chaos gods. They simply do not feel the extremes of negative emotions that feed the Chaos gods. A Sensei can kill but does not do so out of fury. A Sensei can carouse and drink but does not feel the urge towards excess, and so on.

4) They have an instinctual urge to promote the old harmonious warp, and thus find themselves fighting oppression and situations that promote the emotions that feed the Chaos gods. Therefore they often end up as freedom fighters, pirates, vigilantes, revolutionaries, etc...

The fortuitous combination of genes the Sensei have inherited from the Emperor makes them very special. Their most important trait is their immortality. Although they can be killed they do not age, and possess amazing powers of recovery. They are also protected from the Chaos Powers, and the untainted flow of the warp can move through them unimpeded. A Sensei cannot experience hate, bitterness, or irrational anger, because these things are part of the disharmony of the Chaos Powers. They radiate natural confidence and harmony, and can even draw upon the energies of the warp to use their psychic powers. Sensei do not risk attracting daemons or other malicious psychic forces by using their powers. Being untainted by Chaos they are utterly invulnerable to the predations of the Chaos Powers. In fact because they harbour no trace of the emotions and concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers they are largely invisible to them.

p. 185, Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned

We see a similar kind of invisibility in the Yncarne in the Gathering Storm.
The Sensei were like Champions of the Star Child but their gifts available in the books were less overtly supernatural and might be just passed off as incredible skill. Things like WS or S bonus for example.
I would also personally imagine them to have powers of natural persuasion if they are to survive for any length of time in the 40K universe. Of course I'm sure the Inquisition might then accuse them of being with Slaanesh.

Just because an Inquisitor thinks he sees parallels between a Sensei group and a previously purged Tzeentch cult does not mean he is correct. The cult could have been set up deliberately to create that opinion I see Tzeentch definitely appreciating the irony of getting the Emperor's Imperium to persecute his own descendants, and thereby screwing up one genuine hope for humanity.

The Inquisition has always thought that about the Sensei.

They always hunted the sensei and illuminati but didn’t think they were tzeentch cult. They hunted them because they wanted to kill what they consider the emperor but the illuminati consider a shackle stopping the star child being reborn.

Andykp wrote:
They always hunted the sensei and illuminati but didn’t think they were tzeentch cult. They hunted them because they wanted to kill what they consider the emperor but the illuminati consider a shackle stopping the star child being reborn.

Yes, they did.

I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

 Karhedron wrote:
I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

I'm surprised people would believe the Inquisition, but most or all of them don't know it was the Inquisition who said that.

The Sensei were first introduced in 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

I'm surprised people would believe the Inquisition, but most or all of them don't know it was the Inquisition who said that.

The Sensei were first introduced in 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

"I love X" doesn't add any weight to it.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

I'm surprised people would believe the Inquisition, but most or all of them don't know it was the Inquisition who said that.

The Sensei were first introduced in 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

I don't see any reason for the Inquisition to lie, in fact they are generally one of the more rational and trustworthy organizations in the Imperium.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
I love the old Sensei/Starchild fluff but it seems to have been largely abandoned by GW since the start of 3rd edition. The Perpetuals in the HH novels seem to fill a similar narrative role, even though they do not appear to be descendants of the Emperor.

I'm surprised people would believe the Inquisition, but most or all of them don't know it was the Inquisition who said that.

The Sensei were first introduced in 1st Edition Rogue Trader. I love 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

I don't see any reason for the Inquisition to lie, in fact they are generally one of the more rational and trustworthy organizations in the Imperium.

Like hell they are. They keep so many secrets and lie all the time.


And even if they were, they aren't always right. That is a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Inquisitors are paranoid and reactionary in addition to keeping secrets from the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just because an Inquisitor says that about the Sensei sure as hell does not make it true. That one Inquisitors is a fallible narrator at best.

They're also one of the main reasons the IOM didn't fall apart 10k years latter. Malcador was an administrative genius and manage to set up both the factory that is the Adeptus Administratum and a flexible organization that can safe guard that. The Inquisition has probably solve more threats than any other organization in the IOM by uncovering and investigating threats that no other force of the IOM would have caught due to their authority and mandate. The fact that the Sensei got wiped out in a blerp shows that GW wanted to quietly retire the idea.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They're also one of the main reasons the IOM didn't fall apart 10k years latter. Malcador was an administrative genius and manage to set up both the factory that is the Adeptus Administratum and a flexible organization that can safe guard that. The Inquisition has probably solve more threats than any other organization in the IOM by uncovering and investigating threats that no other force of the IOM would have caught due to their authority and mandate. The fact that the Sensei got wiped out in a blerp shows that GW wanted to quietly retire the idea.

The Sensei are a challenge to the powers that be in the Imperium. Of course the Inquisition would want them gone. And they have ALWAYS thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos, even in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.



And the Inquisition came to be something different from what the Emperor and Malcador wanted.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They're also one of the main reasons the IOM didn't fall apart 10k years latter. Malcador was an administrative genius and manage to set up both the factory that is the Adeptus Administratum and a flexible organization that can safe guard that. The Inquisition has probably solve more threats than any other organization in the IOM by uncovering and investigating threats that no other force of the IOM would have caught due to their authority and mandate. The fact that the Sensei got wiped out in a blerp shows that GW wanted to quietly retire the idea.

The Sensei are a challenge to the powers that be in the Imperium. Of course the Inquisition would want them gone. And they have ALWAYS thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos, even in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

The weren't particularly a challenge. Most of them were clueless.

And no, not 'always.' Some knew what was going on, and tried to cultivate, use or even aid them. The illuminati section specifically mentions there are Inquisitor members, who know the real truth about the Emperor and the Sensei.


But they're a weird setting element that was rightfully abandoned as not actually appropriate to the setting. They're hopeful upbeat immortals that are literally immune to bad feelings, as well as the chaos powers themselves, and any sort of taint or corruption. For a setting that revolves around how terrible it all is and how there isn't actually hope for the future, they're a bad fit. They're an even worse fit than corruption immune Grey Knights slaughtering Sisters and decorating themselves with their bits to grant themselves extra immunity.

The Sensei amount to a page in Slaves to Darkness and 8 pages of drivel in the Lost and the Damned and not much else. The don't even agree with each other, as StD references corrupted Grey Sensei that turn to chaos and LotD flatly states this is impossible.
They weren't expanded upon or given miniatures. They're a dead letter, a footnote of gak worldbuilding back in the days when they were definitely throwing a lot of gak at the walls to see what would stick.

Nine pages out of the 574 pages of the two Realm of Chaos books was a low price to pay to realize this was a bad idea. It was hardly the only thing from this era that didn't stick. Night Lords in StD had red shoulder pads and were dedicated to Khorne. Doesn't make it true in universe. The interior binding of Rogue Trader has a bunch of Blood Angels fighting orks, The marine in the lower center has a pack of cigarettes strapped to his forearm, 'Die Slow(ish)' written on his pauldron and a middle finger decorating the round node on the side of his helmet. The medic has a battle banner with an angelic figure wearing a hockey mask, and the dreadnought's banner depicts a head within a winged halo, vomiting. There isn't any inherent truth to any of this 'because it was in Rogue Trader.' The setting, the game and space marines moved on. If it hadn't, marines would still be T3 drug addicted criminals, and Custodes would be a bunch of half naked blokes in cloaks, pointy helmets and curiously tight leather trousers.

----

There just isn't much value in cherry picking things out of the Rogue Trader era. The sections on Squats, Genestealers and Slann are complete gibberish at this point, the Dark Angels wear black armor under all-black battle banners, and the Space Wolf fortress-monastery is presented as typical of Space Marine structures, located on the 'productive world' of Lucan, and aside from being the Chapter's 'founder' Leman Russ is most famous for flying the spacecraft 'Medusa,' which hangs in the Great Hall. They specifically have Masters of the Order, Ships, Forge and Ordinance, and the leader of the Chapter is an Imperial Commander and Governor of the planet known as Lord Lucan. And they all follow the Imperial cult and the Ecclesiarch [not even the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarch]. Space Wolves eat in silence following prayers of thanks. None of this sounds even vaguely like Space Wolves, and hasn't since barely five years later, when the first SW codex came out for second edition.

Banging on about 'facts' and truth' of it doesn't make any sense. Change happened. All hail the Great Mutator, for he corrupted the work long before the 41st millenium.

But, but...it's 1st Edition Rogue Trader. How dare you sully it's good name!

As far as the Sensei theory goes, even without considering the facts in the above post, when it last appeared the whole thing was presented as an in-universe theory/pseudo-religion. We know the Inquisition is not a single, united organisation and is extremely divided into different factions, all vying for supremacy. Claiming your opponents are deluded Chaos worshippers doesn't necessarily mean you believe they are, and even if you believe it, doesn't make it true. It's all politics and in-fighting at this point, as various factions fight for supremacy within the Inquisition.

But given the lack of further info about the whole Star Child/Sensei theory we can't really say definitively whether it's still a thing in the current 40k background/ It may not have been directly contradicted or explicitly removed but a complete lack of further info in recent years suggests it may have been abandoned.

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They're also one of the main reasons the IOM didn't fall apart 10k years latter. Malcador was an administrative genius and manage to set up both the factory that is the Adeptus Administratum and a flexible organization that can safe guard that. The Inquisition has probably solve more threats than any other organization in the IOM by uncovering and investigating threats that no other force of the IOM would have caught due to their authority and mandate. The fact that the Sensei got wiped out in a blerp shows that GW wanted to quietly retire the idea.

The Sensei are a challenge to the powers that be in the Imperium. Of course the Inquisition would want them gone. And they have ALWAYS thought the Sensei were in league with Chaos, even in 1st Edition Rogue Trader.

The weren't particularly a challenge. Most of them were clueless.

And no, not 'always.' Some knew what was going on, and tried to cultivate, use or even aid them. The illuminati section specifically mentions there are Inquisitor members, who know the real truth about the Emperor and the Sensei.


But they're a weird setting element that was rightfully abandoned as not actually appropriate to the setting. They're hopeful upbeat immortals that are literally immune to bad feelings, as well as the chaos powers themselves, and any sort of taint or corruption. For a setting that revolves around how terrible it all is and how there isn't actually hope for the future, they're a bad fit. They're an even worse fit than corruption immune Grey Knights slaughtering Sisters and decorating themselves with their bits to grant themselves extra immunity.

The Sensei amount to a page in Slaves to Darkness and 8 pages of drivel in the Lost and the Damned and not much else. The don't even agree with each other, as StD references corrupted Grey Sensei that turn to chaos and LotD flatly states this is impossible.
They weren't expanded upon or given miniatures. They're a dead letter, a footnote of gak worldbuilding back in the days when they were definitely throwing a lot of gak at the walls to see what would stick.

Nine pages out of the 574 pages of the two Realm of Chaos books was a low price to pay to realize this was a bad idea. It was hardly the only thing from this era that didn't stick. Night Lords in StD had red shoulder pads and were dedicated to Khorne. Doesn't make it true in universe. The interior binding of Rogue Trader has a bunch of Blood Angels fighting orks, The marine in the lower center has a pack of cigarettes strapped to his forearm, 'Die Slow(ish)' written on his pauldron and a middle finger decorating the round node on the side of his helmet. The medic has a battle banner with an angelic figure wearing a hockey mask, and the dreadnought's banner depicts a head within a winged halo, vomiting. There isn't any inherent truth to any of this 'because it was in Rogue Trader.' The setting, the game and space marines moved on. If it hadn't, marines would still be T3 drug addicted criminals, and Custodes would be a bunch of half naked blokes in cloaks, pointy helmets and curiously tight leather trousers.

----

There just isn't much value in cherry picking things out of the Rogue Trader era. The sections on Squats, Genestealers and Slann are complete gibberish at this point, the Dark Angels wear black armor under all-black battle banners, and the Space Wolf fortress-monastery is presented as typical of Space Marine structures, located on the 'productive world' of Lucan, and aside from being the Chapter's 'founder' Leman Russ is most famous for flying the spacecraft 'Medusa,' which hangs in the Great Hall. They specifically have Masters of the Order, Ships, Forge and Ordinance, and the leader of the Chapter is an Imperial Commander and Governor of the planet known as Lord Lucan. And they all follow the Imperial cult and the Ecclesiarch [not even the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarch]. Space Wolves eat in silence following prayers of thanks. None of this sounds even vaguely like Space Wolves, and hasn't since barely five years later, when the first SW codex came out for second edition.

Banging on about 'facts' and truth' of it doesn't make any sense. Change happened. All hail the Great Mutator, for he corrupted the work long before the 41st millenium.

Those Inquisitors who knew about that were part of the Illuminati.


And it does say they thought that.

Onething123456 wrote:
Those Inquisitors who knew about that were part of the Illuminati.

And it does say they thought that.

It would be helpful if you were a bit clearer. What do you mean by "that" in the first sentence above? How about in the second sentence? It's kind of difficult to follow what you're getting at when your responses are so cryptic. Speaking of responses, the post you're quoting was pointing out the old fluff about Senseis/Illuminati is most likely outdated now. You haven't actually addressed that point. At least I don't think you have. It's hard to tell. It's also hard to have a discussion when one side of said discussion doesn't seem to actually respond to what other people say and instead settles for leaving two-sentence responses, that may or may not be relevant, to multi-paragraph rebuttals..

At the heart of this whole topic is the basic question of whether the Sensei fluff is even current background. Voss makes some good points that suggest it probably isn't, and was never really that big a deal in the first place anyway. The last time it got any major discussion in a GW text was some stuff in the Inquisition War novels, and before that as part of the Inquisitor rulebook. It was also mentioned in the 2nd edition background. In all cases it was always presented more as an interesting theory than a statement of fact. If the Sensei stuff isn't that important in the current background the question of what the Inquisition believes about it seems even less important.

Slipspace wrote:
But, but...it's 1st Edition Rogue Trader. How dare you sully it's good name!

.

I like RT. But a lot of the fluff was 'insert wacky stuff from 2000 AD comics into Dune' and call it a day.
Growth of the company meant working through all bits littering the shop floor and creating something reasonably coherent out of it, and abandoning things that didn't work (Sensei) or they couldn't figure out how to make work (Squats, by their own admission).

Part of the reason the Sensei didn't work is they explicitly set up an end game where the Emepror is restored, whole and absolutely an incarnate deity wandering around making everything better.... Which negates the tone, themes and even the setting altogether.