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"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face." Pg.32 Age of Darkness


The quote above shows that the Great Crusade did have moral boundaries, and was not full on fascist (even ignoring that neither the Imperium nor the Nazis are/were fascist. The Nazis were National Socialist, which is similar but still different from fascism.)



Angron and the Word Bearers were doing things that any civilized code of war (including the Imperium's Code of war) would deem abhorrent. Many legions clashed with Angron because of how extreme he was.




Maybe this is just what I think after reading the Horus Heresy books, but my quote for me is proof that most of what I heard is bs.

And yet the most Angron, Curze and Perturbo got for the countless times they went to far was some of their brothers not wanting to work with them and an occasional verbal spanking. At no point are any of them really reprimanded or re leaved of command. That's pretty telling on how much the Emperor really cared about them committing genocide.

And it's worth noting that there where times when he deliberatly deployed Legions for that, the Space Wolves where specificly geared for these unpleasent things. Some socities where deemed to have diverged too much from humanity's core to be permitted to exist. (I seem to recall one example where the entire society scooped their brains out and put the brains in cyborg bodies, that civilization was exterminated by the Rout)

The great crusade like all crusades was an unpleasant affair with billions of death in its wake. Last time we talked about this we gave you examples of peacful happy societies being brought to heal by the marines. The emperor condoned genocide, of xenos and humans. He even wiped out his own troops when the became obsolete. If that moral line is to be disappointed when one of your generals has butchered millions of innocents in your name then that pretty shakey moral ground.

Also I always liken the imperium to Stalinist soviet era. And the emperor as Stalin. Who also killed a lot of people.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
And yet the most Angron, Curze and Perturbo got for the countless times they went to far was some of their brothers not wanting to work with them and an occasional verbal spanking. At no point are any of them really reprimanded or re leaved of command. That's pretty telling on how much the Emperor really cared about them committing genocide.

The Emperor actually chastised Angron and Kurze, from what I have learned. He was going to chastise him for destroying his home planet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
The great crusade like all crusades was an unpleasant affair with billions of death in its wake. Last time we talked about this we gave you examples of peacful happy societies being brought to heal by the marines. The emperor condoned genocide, of xenos and humans. He even wiped out his own troops when the became obsolete. If that moral line is to be disappointed when one of your generals has butchered millions of innocents in your name then that pretty shakey moral ground.

Also I always liken the imperium to Stalinist soviet era. And the emperor as Stalin. Who also killed a lot of people.

And you still have given almost jack crap to prove that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
And it's worth noting that there where times when he deliberatly deployed Legions for that, the Space Wolves where specificly geared for these unpleasent things. Some socities where deemed to have diverged too much from humanity's core to be permitted to exist. (I seem to recall one example where the entire society scooped their brains out and put the brains in cyborg bodies, that civilization was exterminated by the Rout)

The Space Wolves actually were not bad. At least that is what I think after reading Tales of Heresy

Again, yes he said some stern words and clearly would prefer if they didn't fight like that. However he took no actions beyond that to stop them and even seemed to use it to his advantage at times. To give you a modern day example, lets say I'm a general and the president tasks me with capturing a city and bringing it into compliance with our values. Me and my men do this by killing almost everyone even though they tried to surrender several times and the city could have been taken with significantly less damage and casualties.

The president proceeds to that's not what he wanted, yells at me for a bit and then tells me here is your next target. The President knows I either can't or won't control my men, in fact I've experimented on them to the point that I couldn't even if I wanted to, which I don't. He knows in all likely hood I'm gonna do it again. He does not re leave me of command, he continues to allow me to fight in a manor that as your own quoted noted is considered unsettling by 30k standards. At some point my actions end up on the president who has done nothing to curb my behavior and continues to use me as a fighting force. Being that complicit eventually put's my warcrimes on the President.

So the fact they are actually committing atrocities, and are described committing them in your quote, the fact that some random bystander describes them as 'abhorrent' means they aren't atrocities anymore?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, yes he said some stern words and clearly would prefer if they didn't fight like that. However he took no actions beyond that to stop them and even seemed to use it to his advantage at times. To give you a modern day example, lets say I'm a general and the president tasks me with capturing a city and bringing it into compliance with our values. Me and my men do this by killing almost everyone even though they tried to surrender several times and the city could have been taken with significantly less damage and casualties.

The president proceeds to that's not what he wanted, yells at me for a bit and then tells me here is your next target. The President knows I either can't or won't control my men, in fact I've experimented on them to the point that I couldn't even if I wanted to, which I don't. He knows in all likely hood I'm gonna do it again. He does not re leave me of command, he continues to allow me to fight in a manor that as your own quoted noted is considered unsettling by 30k standards. At some point my actions end up on the president who has done nothing to curb my behavior and continues to use me as a fighting force. Being that complicit eventually put's my warcrimes on the President.

He did chastise them, but after he left for the Webway, he could not keep control of them.

Angron didn't suddenly loss it when Dad went to the garage. (That honor goes to Horus). From day one he was a frigging lunatic who murdered scores of his own men, decided once he was gonna stop killing his kids, he would lobotomize them instead, and was from the start going well over board. The Emperor did nothing to curb any of this. He knew Angron was damaged goods but decided to roll with it. That was dumb, since even if the Heresy never happened Primarchs like Angron, Curze and possible Pert were always going to be a problem down the line. They should have been shot into the sun not given an army.

And your argument is weak. He was working on the webway when he sent Russ to drag Magnus back to Terra in chains. He could have stopped Angron at any point but didn't. That makes him complicit in genocide, which again by your own quote was something that was thought to be morally wrong even by 30k standards.

Pacification of Luna.

Ragdan xenocides, they wiped out swathes of human worlds to stop them coming back

Keylek massacred by Luna wolves

Galaspar
The three kilometer-long craft plowed into the upper Hive's of Galaspar, toppling the cities spires and unleashing its deadly cargo of 11,000 Death Guard Space Marines. Galaspar's primary hive fell in a night and a day, the Death Guard killing any man, woman, or child who stood before them.[1]

The [1] references book one:betrayal. Please note the then loyal death guard killed every man, woman and child.

Word bearers kill 190 million on planet 47-16

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron didn't suddenly loss it when Dad went to the garage. (That honor goes to Horus). From day one he was a frigging lunatic who murdered scores of his own men, decided once he was gonna stop killing his kids, he would lobotomize them instead, and was from the start going well over board. The Emperor did nothing to curb any of this. He knew Angron was damaged goods but decided to roll with it. That was dumb, since even if the Heresy never happened Primarchs like Angron, Curze and possible Pert were always going to be a problem down the line. They should have been shot into the sun not given an army.

And your argument is weak. He was working on the webway when he sent Russ to drag Magnus back to Terra in chains. He could have stopped Angron at any point but didn't. That makes him complicit in genocide, which again by your own quote was something that was thought to be morally wrong even by 30k standards.

Yes, after Magnus ruined the Webway was when he sent Russ to get Magnus.




And he DID chastise Kurze and Angron.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron didn't suddenly loss it when Dad went to the garage. (That honor goes to Horus). From day one he was a frigging lunatic who murdered scores of his own men, decided once he was gonna stop killing his kids, he would lobotomize them instead, and was from the start going well over board. The Emperor did nothing to curb any of this. He knew Angron was damaged goods but decided to roll with it. That was dumb, since even if the Heresy never happened Primarchs like Angron, Curze and possible Pert were always going to be a problem down the line. They should have been shot into the sun not given an army.

And your argument is weak. He was working on the webway when he sent Russ to drag Magnus back to Terra in chains. He could have stopped Angron at any point but didn't. That makes him complicit in genocide, which again by your own quote was something that was thought to be morally wrong even by 30k standards.

Yes, after Magnus ruined the Webway was when he sent Russ to get Magnus.




And he DID chastise Kurze and Angron.

He chastised them, that’s ok. They commited genocide and he told them off. GENOCIDE! If I really want to stop that you don’t just reprimand the murders. Open your eyes boy!

My eyes are open.

If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

Andykp wrote:
If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just give up. I'm an attorney and love to argue but this seems almost pointless. Onething, to put it in the most simple of terms. Angron regularly committed genocide and other actions that even by 30k standards were to much. The Emperor never removed him from command or took any real action to stop this. Instead he continued to let Angron do his thing. The Emperor had the means to bring him to heel but he didn't. Inaction to a subordinate committing war crimes eventually makes you complicit in them. By modern standards them Emperor would be guilty of genocide.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just give up. I'm an attorney and love to argue but this seems almost pointless. Onething, to put it in the most simple of terms. Angron regularly committed genocide and other actions that even by 30k standards were to much. The Emperor never removed him from command or took any real action to stop this. Instead he continued to let Angron do his thing. The Emperor had the means to bring him to heel but he didn't. Inaction to a subordinate committing war crimes eventually makes you complicit in them. By modern standards them Emperor would be guilty of genocide.

You're an attorney?



The Emperor did not directly do those things, and chastised Angron and Kurze for their actions. And he even punished at least one of them, as he was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet.




Not really, since the Emperor did not directly do that.

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just give up. I'm an attorney and love to argue but this seems almost pointless. Onething, to put it in the most simple of terms. Angron regularly committed genocide and other actions that even by 30k standards were to much. The Emperor never removed him from command or took any real action to stop this. Instead he continued to let Angron do his thing. The Emperor had the means to bring him to heel but he didn't. Inaction to a subordinate committing war crimes eventually makes you complicit in them. By modern standards them Emperor would be guilty of genocide.

You're an attorney?



The Emperor did not directly do those things, and chastised Angron And Kurze for their actions. And he even punished at least one of them, as he was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet.




Not really, since the Emperor did not directly do that.

Yes really that's why we had the Nuremberg trials even though most of the defendants never committed any acts of violence personally, they were in charge and thus as culpable as those who carried out their orders.

 ingtaer wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just give up. I'm an attorney and love to argue but this seems almost pointless. Onething, to put it in the most simple of terms. Angron regularly committed genocide and other actions that even by 30k standards were to much. The Emperor never removed him from command or took any real action to stop this. Instead he continued to let Angron do his thing. The Emperor had the means to bring him to heel but he didn't. Inaction to a subordinate committing war crimes eventually makes you complicit in them. By modern standards them Emperor would be guilty of genocide.

You're an attorney?



The Emperor did not directly do those things, and chastised Angron And Kurze for their actions. And he even punished at least one of them, as he was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet.




Not really, since the Emperor did not directly do that.

Yes really that's why we had the Nuremberg trials even though most of the defendants never committed any acts of violence personally, they were in charge and thus as culpable as those who carried out their orders.

Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respondeat_superior

This is a concept as old as Rome, a master/employer is responsible for his servant/slave/employee in a lot of contexts. Again, if I'm a general and one of my soldiers continues to commit war crimes, I'm getting the noose after a certain point if I don't take measures to stop them. The Emperor may not have ordered Angron or Curze to terrorize or massacre people but he took no real active steps to stop them. He let them continue these behaviors for years and even took advantage of them when it suited him.

Emps knew exactly what he was doing when he ordered the more barbaric legions to attack people, its why he sent them and not one of the more civilized primarchs. To think that the Emps had any sort of moral qualms is laughable, not only did he actively condone such behavior but he also perpetrated such acts himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
If you can’t see the emperor as an oppressor and genocidal murderer then they are not open enough.

At this point, I'm almost ready to just give up. I'm an attorney and love to argue but this seems almost pointless. Onething, to put it in the most simple of terms. Angron regularly committed genocide and other actions that even by 30k standards were to much. The Emperor never removed him from command or took any real action to stop this. Instead he continued to let Angron do his thing. The Emperor had the means to bring him to heel but he didn't. Inaction to a subordinate committing war crimes eventually makes you complicit in them. By modern standards them Emperor would be guilty of genocide.

You're an attorney?



The Emperor did not directly do those things, and chastised Angron And Kurze for their actions. And he even punished at least one of them, as he was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet.




Not really, since the Emperor did not directly do that.

Yes really that's why we had the Nuremberg trials even though most of the defendants never committed any acts of violence personally, they were in charge and thus as culpable as those who carried out their orders.

Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Horrible analogy because it describes the exact samething but one is history and one is fantasy.

Let's go with a hypothetical situation, the US has a general whom is crazy, the general suffered brain damage in his youth that made him a blood thristy psycopath. the POTUS hands control of a large army to said man, who begins having his troops lobotomized to be just like him, the POTUS sends said general and his army on a wide ranging war of conquest with minimal oversight (understand, the nature of the crusade meant Angron has VERY LITTLE oversight) now when said general starts butchering cities etc, and the POTUS when receiving word of it, simply talks to him, nothing changes. Now... is the POTUS in that case responsable? The answer? ABSOLUTELY. A reasonable person would not have awarded command of a man so broken in the first place and would certainly have stripped him of his command the minute word of atrocities reached him. The Emperor is therefore responsable for Angron. period

BrianDavion wrote:
Let's go with a hypothetical situation, the US has a general whom is crazy, the general suffered brain damage in his youth that made him a blood thristy psycopath. the POTUS hands control of a large army to said man, who begins having his troops lobotomized to be just like him, the POTUS sends said general and his army on a wide ranging war of conquest with minimal oversight (understand, the nature of the crusade meant Angron has VERY LITTLE oversight) now when said general starts butchering cities etc, and the POTUS when receiving word of it, simply talks to him, nothing changes. Now... is the POTUS in that case responsable? The answer? ABSOLUTELY. A reasonable person would not have awarded command of a man so broken in the first place and would certainly have stripped him of his command the minute word of atrocities reached him. The Emperor is therefore responsable for Angron. period

This is why I actually find Angron to be one of if not the most tragic Primarch. He more or less had the worst childhood of all of them, he was broken the minute they shoved the Buthcers Nail into his head. He was one of if not the only Primarch who not only failed to conquer his home world, he was about to die when the Emperor pulled him away.

He was broken in mind, body and spirit, and then he was told too bad, here is an army, a mission and get over it. The Emperor was always a cruel SOB, but this really highlights how bad of a father he was and how selfish and cruel he was.

By the time he found Angron, he should have either been allowed to die with his army or after the Emperor got a good look at him, given the Emperor's mercy and given him some peace and saved his legion from a broken demi god who ruined all of them cause he himself was so broken.

Onething123456 wrote:


Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Wow. Just...wow. Please, please, please go and educate yourself about morals, ethics and history in general. I'm not even saying that to be a donkey-cave. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of those beneath them, even more so when the actions of those beneath them have already been brought to their attention. Oddly enough, the Nuremburg Trials are one of the textbook examples of the opposite also being true - under certain circumstances it's no defence to say "I was just following orders". Saying "don't do that again", then watching on as those subordinates do the same thing over and over makes the Emperor even worse than Angron or Curze. He knew exactly what they were like and was pretty much the only person in the galaxy who could stop them, but chose not to, because it was convenient for him to have such morally corrupt armies to command. You could even make the argument Angron was mentally deficient and therefore not responsible for his actions, which puts the blame 100% on the Emperor's shoulders. You don't have to literally give an order that says "wipe out everyone, including the women and children" to be guilty of such acts if you have a reasonable expectation that such a thing will happen.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Wow. Just...wow. Please, please, please go and educate yourself about morals, ethics and history in general. I'm not even saying that to be a donkey-cave. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of those beneath them, even more so when the actions of those beneath them have already been brought to their attention. Oddly enough, the Nuremburg Trials are one of the textbook examples of the opposite also being true - under certain circumstances it's no defence to say "I was just following orders". Saying "don't do that again", then watching on as those subordinates do the same thing over and over makes the Emperor even worse than Angron or Curze. He knew exactly what they were like and was pretty much the only person in the galaxy who could stop them, but chose not to, because it was convenient for him to have such morally corrupt armies to command. You could even make the argument Angron was mentally deficient and therefore not responsible for his actions, which puts the blame 100% on the Emperor's shoulders. You don't have to literally give an order that says "wipe out everyone, including the women and children" to be guilty of such acts if you have a reasonable expectation that such a thing will happen.

Indeed.

I was thinking earlier that the quote given states that the actions carried out by Angron were against morality and as that is so mutable a concept it made me wonder what the morals of 30k humanity actually were. They had no issue with slavery, genocide or unleashing weapons that utterly annihilated planets so what would actually be beyond the pale for them? Its hard to conceive.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Wow. Just...wow. Please, please, please go and educate yourself about morals, ethics and history in general. I'm not even saying that to be a donkey-cave. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of those beneath them, even more so when the actions of those beneath them have already been brought to their attention. Oddly enough, the Nuremburg Trials are one of the textbook examples of the opposite also being true - under certain circumstances it's no defence to say "I was just following orders". Saying "don't do that again", then watching on as those subordinates do the same thing over and over makes the Emperor even worse than Angron or Curze. He knew exactly what they were like and was pretty much the only person in the galaxy who could stop them, but chose not to, because it was convenient for him to have such morally corrupt armies to command. You could even make the argument Angron was mentally deficient and therefore not responsible for his actions, which puts the blame 100% on the Emperor's shoulders. You don't have to literally give an order that says "wipe out everyone, including the women and children" to be guilty of such acts if you have a reasonable expectation that such a thing will happen.

Could? I outright will make the Argument that Angron was mentally deficiant and the Emperor KNEW IT. The Nails weren't some secret that Angron kept from the Emperor, he knew about them and had STUDIED them (ref Master of Mankind BTW) he knew EXACTLY what Angron was. The Nails wrecked Angron's mind, rewriting parts so that basicly he could only feel anything approuching contentment when he was killing, he was brain damaged, mentally ill. And the emperor KNOWING THIS, put him in command.

Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Jesus, you can't just order mass killings then when you get to trial say, "well it wasn't me that pulled the trigger." Look at Srebrenica in the 90's, Mladic didn't kill those 8000 Bosniaks personally, but he was damn well responsible for it.

This has got to be a troll post at this point.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Wow. Just...wow. Please, please, please go and educate yourself about morals, ethics and history in general. I'm not even saying that to be a donkey-cave. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of those beneath them, even more so when the actions of those beneath them have already been brought to their attention. Oddly enough, the Nuremburg Trials are one of the textbook examples of the opposite also being true - under certain circumstances it's no defence to say "I was just following orders". Saying "don't do that again", then watching on as those subordinates do the same thing over and over makes the Emperor even worse than Angron or Curze. He knew exactly what they were like and was pretty much the only person in the galaxy who could stop them, but chose not to, because it was convenient for him to have such morally corrupt armies to command. You could even make the argument Angron was mentally deficient and therefore not responsible for his actions, which puts the blame 100% on the Emperor's shoulders. You don't have to literally give an order that says "wipe out everyone, including the women and children" to be guilty of such acts if you have a reasonable expectation that such a thing will happen.

I know about morals ethics and history. I love studying history. The Emperor was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet and he chastised Angron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
This has got to be a troll post at this point.

Its not. I just think a lot of what I heard about the Crusade Imperim is at least exaggerated.

Onething123456 wrote:

Its not. I just think a lot of what I heard about the Crusade Imperim is at least exaggerated.

You're really putting all your money on "the galaxy spanning multi-century campaign of conquest and genocide was a little exaggerated"?

For feth's sake.

Onething123456 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Horrible analogy. The people in charge were ordering those people to be put to death. The Emperor did not commit those crimes in the least, Angron and Kurze did.

Wow. Just...wow. Please, please, please go and educate yourself about morals, ethics and history in general. I'm not even saying that to be a donkey-cave. Those in charge are responsible for the actions of those beneath them, even more so when the actions of those beneath them have already been brought to their attention. Oddly enough, the Nuremburg Trials are one of the textbook examples of the opposite also being true - under certain circumstances it's no defence to say "I was just following orders". Saying "don't do that again", then watching on as those subordinates do the same thing over and over makes the Emperor even worse than Angron or Curze. He knew exactly what they were like and was pretty much the only person in the galaxy who could stop them, but chose not to, because it was convenient for him to have such morally corrupt armies to command. You could even make the argument Angron was mentally deficient and therefore not responsible for his actions, which puts the blame 100% on the Emperor's shoulders. You don't have to literally give an order that says "wipe out everyone, including the women and children" to be guilty of such acts if you have a reasonable expectation that such a thing will happen.

I know about morals ethics and history. I love studying history. The Emperor was going to punish Kurze for destroying his home planet and he chastised Angron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:
This has got to be a troll post at this point.

Its not. I just think a lot of what I heard about the Crusade Imperim is at least exaggerated.

As a supposed lover of history, that should in itself demonstrate that the Emperor is anything but a benevolent ruler. Are you telling me that if your country's leader started a campaign of genocide towards neighboring countries in order to "curb" an outbreak of disease, you think that it would be justified? Since the leader himself never killed them himself in person though, he's clearly blameless

Furthermore, unlike my example above, it's clear that the Emperor himself participated in destroying several civizilations and condoned Kurze's terror tactics and Angron's rampage when it suited him. If he was ever really concerned about civilian casualties or atrocities, then he would have never let them lead legions to begin with. But for him, the ends justify the means, just like countless dictators and tyrants before him.