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So, as the title suggests, this thread is dedicated to brainstorming how to buff Khorne-aligned units in Codex: Daemons that need it. It's not exactly a secret that Daemon Princes, Heralds, and Bloodletters make up the competetively viable units for Khorne Daemons, while the rest languish in obscurity.

I'll kick off discussion by listing my brief thoughts on the different Khorne units and what could be done to buff them.

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage



Bloodthirsters that aren't Insensate Rage



Skarbrand



Skulltaker seems perfectly fine the way he is.

Bloodmasters and Skullmasters seem perfectly fine the way they are, despite the silly name change.

Blood Throne


Karanak seems perfectly OK for a cheap HQ; fast enough, gives you psychic protection and can hide behind other stuff.

Daemon Princes are already the best HQ choice in the book. It's a bit of a ripoff that GW thinks not being a Psyker is worth 1A, but they're still amazing.

Bloodletters are great. 'Nuff said.

Bloodcrushers


Flesh Hounds


Skull Cannon


Soul Grinder


Furies


Thoughts?

Not a Daemon player so can't comment too much on the details, but your main gripe with the Bloodthirsters is that you're comparing them to Knights a bit too much. There are a number of things that they have much better than the Knights.

1. They have Fly (except Skarband), they're much more manuverable than Knights because of this. You can also DS a Bloodthirster.

2. They're HQ choices rather than Lord of Wars, easier to fill up detachments, which are relatively cheaper as a result.

3. Easier to regen wounds and buff. Knight buffs are pretty rare besides the odd strategem or trait which locks you down into specific relics and traits. We have to pay 85pts and lose a turn of shooting to regen wounds, and even then it's only D3 at a time.

As far as I'm aware there's no way to regen wounds on a Bloodthirster. You're also more or less locked into running the Armour of Scorn and Oblivious to Pain. Further, even a full shooting Knight still has Titanic Feet, making it a formidable CC threat regardless.

There's also the fact that Knights are demonstrably competetive, while Bloodthirsters are not.

Skullcannons are now D6 shooting too; I guess 2D3 would technically be slightly better, since it’s 2-6 shots instead of 1-6 shots, but feels like nit-picking over a single die roll.

Soul Grinders backed up by Princes for re-rolls of 1 aren’t awful. And they can put out some delicious damage in CC. Run a monster-mash style army with them and quickly close the gap. Not hugely competitive, but fun in friendly games. My friends are afraid of them.

2+ Bloodcrushers?

That's fething insane.

Why? 3 of them currently cost the same as 20 Bloodletters, have way less attacks, barely tougher, only slightly faster, and are just a touch stronger on the charge. A 2+ save gives them terminator armor. Nobody is calling terminators insane.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Why? 3 of them currently cost the same as 20 Bloodletters, have way less attacks, barely tougher, only slightly faster, and are just a touch stronger on the charge. A 2+ save gives them terminator armor. Nobody is calling terminators insane.

Combined with a drop to 35 points...

They've more wounds than a Terminator, are faster, hit harder and better in close combat, are easier to buff...

 JNAProductions wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Why? 3 of them currently cost the same as 20 Bloodletters, have way less attacks, barely tougher, only slightly faster, and are just a touch stronger on the charge. A 2+ save gives them terminator armor. Nobody is calling terminators insane.

Combined with a drop to 35 points...

They've more wounds than a Terminator, are faster, hit harder and better in close combat, are easier to buff...

And Terminators are trash tier. I'd really hope they'd be better than Terminators.

That's a pretty huge offensive buff to Flesh Hounds: decreasing their point cost by 33% and increasing their attacks (not including their charge bonus) by 50% nearly doubles their offensive output. Stat wise, I don't think Flesh Hounds are terrible as is--aside from their weakness to damage 2 weapons, they sit behind Plaguebearers in durability, but ahead of Bloodletters. Problem is just that they don't currently do anything that Bloodletters can't do more efficiently, because Bloodletters have such devastating CC potential. The solution for Flesh Hounds is to let them do something Bloodletters can't do, so they have a defined role.


The fluff talks about them running their quarry to ground, driving them insane with their relentless pursuit. In prior editions, Flesh Hounds got a Scout move. That rule didn't initially survive the port over to 8th edition, but we've seen it come back for Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/etc. Give Flesh Hounds that same ability to move up to 9" (or keep it simple and round it up to their normal move of 10") pre game. That way Flesh Hounds can threaten a turn 1 charge, and help clear screens to expose other units for a Bloodletter follow up. Something 'letters can't do, fits the fluff, and serves a valuable strategic role.

Mono Khorne daemon player here:

Bloodthirsters: Rage here is indeed the big one of the three, his offensive power is off the charts compared to his non big axe counterparts. At 340pts (the same cost as every other thirster bar skarbrand and aangrath) he is rather mixed for his points

On one hand, in the hands of a person who is rolling hot, a armour of scorn bloodthirster is almost impossible to kill, racking up a massive tally before he kicks the bucket. But in other scenario's he just fumbles and becomes a glorified meat shield for the rest of your units.

One thing i would change is unstopable ferocity, give the +1 to str characteristic to units with the MONSTER keyword (dont know why this wasn't changed to that) while the others get +1 to the str of their weapons, this way the BARF guy actually is 16 on his str on the charge, and not 15.

Adding 8 additional wounds is kinda a waste, rather i would say take off 20 points so that their a better investment (320 pts is actually not bad for something along those statlines, at least compared to knights)

Other bloodthirsters that arent rage: These actually fufill a niche thing. Having the str to wounds most things on 3's while having the attack profile of a thirster, and the ability to kill things in CC with SHOOTING is a major boon. Sadly they are overshadowed by their big axe counterparts in sheer melee killing power (Why take a norm axe thirster when the big axe can clear whole mobs in a single turn?)

In this scenario i would say give them the ability to trigger their ability (Deathbringer) on a 5+ with their axes of khorne, that way you can still keep toe to toe with the big axe thirsters on sheer CC but also fufill a role of priority target clearer.
(Was thinking about making it 4+ but realized that would be too strong for a AP -4 D D6 melee)

Skarbrand: 9 times out of ten you will DS skarbrand into battle, his aura is too powerful for enemies to let him live cause if he gets into CC that is game for your enemy. Instead i would suggest skarbrand be given something that either increases his survivability (+8 wounds or +1 T) or gives him a better chance of getting where he needs to go (3d6 charge?), I'm kinda leaning into the +1 T territory as that would make his statline wise equal ish to aangrath, the other bloodthirster that skarbrand is a rival to. His points don't need to change as he is good for his cost

Blood throne: It's ok for what it does, but heralds on juggernauts do it's job better

Bloodcrushers: Give them back their 3+ armour save from 5th edition and then we can call it a day

Flesh hounds: Good for what they do. 1 squad of 5 is worth 10 bloodletter, which is fair as far as i play them as. Good quick supression units that force your opponent to take them out as they can tie up units really quickly.

Skull Cannon: Amazing fire support, and quite frankly the best unit in the game (Apart from the DP), their amazing accuracy (3+) their battle cannon statline that ignores cover (Str 8 AP -2 D3 Damage) what is there not to like for 100 pts?

Soul grinder: These guys need to be WS 3+, it's embarrasing that the soul grinder is not 3+ WS, it's CC attacks are hamstringed by the fact you only hit half the time. Other than that they are ok, not amazing great like skullcannons (3 cannons = 1 Grinder. I will always pick the 3 cannons any day of the week)

Furies: Great mobility, poor morale makes them meh to choose unless you take a greater daemon, but if they are with a Bloodthirster general then they are actually scary, add a herald on a juggernaught and they actually hurt (STR 6 wounds most things on a 2+) the only downside is that they arent bloodletter weapons, so hitting things at AP 0)

mchammadad wrote:
Furies: Great mobility, poor morale makes them meh to choose unless you take a greater daemon, but if they are with a Bloodthirster general then they are actually scary, add a herald on a juggernaught and they actually hurt (STR 6 wounds most things on a 2+) the only downside is that they arent bloodletter weapons, so hitting things at AP 0)

S6 wounds T4 on a 3+. So not "most things".

Also, if Skarbrand gets T8, GUO need it too.

'Letters should be T4 if for no other reason than the models look that beefy and are now on 32mm bases.

 Galef wrote:
'Letters should be T4 if for no other reason than the models look that beefy and are now on 32mm bases.

And Catachans aren't that beefy?

No, let Letters stay T3. Otherwise, you're once again encroaching hard on Nurgle territory.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Galef wrote:
'Letters should be T4 if for no other reason than the models look that beefy and are now on 32mm bases.

And Catachans aren't that beefy?

No, let Letters stay T3. Otherwise, you're once again encroaching hard on Nurgle territory.

No, Catachans are still human and on 25mm as they should be. There also aren't nearly as big as 'Letters
Nurgle's shtick is no longer just high T. It hasn't been for a couple editions. Nurgle's thing is FNP or Disgustingly Resiliant. I mean, Nurglings got bumped down to T2 this edition

It is unacceptable for 'Letters to be T3 when they are bigger than a Space Marine.
'Letters were T4 when the plastic kit was released, they should be again, especially since GW rereleased them on 32mms.

There is no reason 'Letters should be the same T as Daemonettes and Pink Horrors

-

They're all Lesser Daemons. Why should Daemonettes be less tough than a Bloodletter?

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're all Lesser Daemons. Why should Daemonettes be less tough than a Bloodletter?

I am not talking about what they should or shouldn't be per Lore. I am talking about what they should or shouldn't be based on how GW has decided to produce the model.
'Letters are friggin huge compared to the other lesser Daemons. They are, in fact, also bigger than Plague Bearers, so it is absolutely believable for them to be the same T.
PBs have higher T, for their size, but 'Letters are just plain bigger, so they also have T4. Daemonettes are the same size as all Aeldari, thus T3 is perfect

The only reason Horrors are all T3 is due to 8E not having multiple T units like 7E. But as I am sure you recall, Pink used to be T3, Blues T2 and Brims T1.

So how many points should Letters be, at T4?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So how many points should Letters be, at T4?

Not sure what they are now, as I only have the Index and I know the Daemon Codex AND the CSM Codex has changed them, but I'd say no more than a 20% increase. So if they are 9ppm, 10-11ppm for T4 would be about right.

-

They're currently 7 PPM.

 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So how many points should Letters be, at T4?

Not sure what they are now, as I only have the Index and I know the Daemon Codex AND the CSM Codex has changed them, but I'd say no more than a 20% increase. So if they are 9ppm, 10-11ppm for T4 would be about right.

-

They're 7 ppm.

Bloodcrushers mostly just need a significant points drop. 35 Points sounds good, although if you're going to drop their save to a 2+ they might need to go up a bit. Though I'd prefer a damage increase on the horn attacks. 1D from such a powerful, expensive unit is pretty disappointing.

Okay-Bloodletters are faster, hit better, have better AP, better damage on 6s to-wound, and if they charge, have better Strength and just about TWICE as many attacks.

Plguebearers are between 33-50% more durable against small arms fire (anything D1, basically) and less so against stuff with multiple damage, and reroll wounds in CC.

Making Letters T4 makes Plaguebearers only ever 33% more durable against D1 (11% against D2, and less than 4% more durable against D3) while STILL being worse in most other categories.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They're currently 7 PPM.

REALLY!?!?! Wow, I have been out of the loop with Daemons since the Index

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-Bloodletters are faster, hit better, have better AP, better damage on 6s to-wound, and if they charge, have better Strength and just about TWICE as many attacks.

Plguebearers are between 33-50% more durable against small arms fire (anything D1, basically) and less so against stuff with multiple damage, and reroll wounds in CC.

Making Letters T4 makes Plaguebearers only ever 33% more durable against D1 (11% against D2, and less than 4% more durable against D3) while STILL being worse in most other categories.

I'd go with at least 10ppm for 'Letters to be T4.
I just feel like big bulky Infantry, specifically models that are noticeably bigger than regular Humans and Aeldari, should always be T4 like Orks, Necrons, etc. While models that are noticeably smaller (nurglings, rippers, grots, etc) should be T2.
Necron Scarabs get to be T3 as they are actually made of metal and thus tougher for their size, plus getting a natural armour.

What makes 'Letters need T4 even more (IMO) is that GW saw fit to give them 32mm bases. That makes them look even BIGGER than went they were on 25mms.
This is also why I would use Blue Horror models as Pinks, because Blues are closer to the size of the metal Pink Horror models (yet still somehow bigger) that existed prior to the plastic update.
Painted Pink, no one notices the difference and as the old metal models are still valid to be used, it is legal to use a model of that size for Pinks.
If 'Letters had smaller equivalents, or looked more spindly like one of their old metal versions, I'd be fine with them being T3, but visually it makes no sense right now.

-

Letters don't need T4, they're fine as is. They do the job they were meant to.

Primortus wrote:
Letters don't need T4, they're fine as is. They do the job they were meant to.

This. T4 at 10 PPM would be a massive nerf, please don't.

 JNAProductions wrote:
2+ Bloodcrushers?

That's fething insane.

Because every unit with 2+ armor has to suck?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Primortus wrote:
Letters don't need T4, they're fine as is. They do the job they were meant to.

This. T4 at 10 PPM would be a massive nerf, please don't.

That's fine. Keep them T3. But GW needs to release appropriate models that fit that stat, because the current models do NOT.
An exaggerated example would be if a Thirster was T5. It's a HUGE model. T5 just isn't right for it.

As we can all agree that releasing new models for 'Letter is ridiculous (because the models are awesome as-is), the better answer is to make then T4.
Price them however makes sense after that, I don't care, but the MODEL LOOKS T4. Being T3 is not WYSIWYG for the current model.

-

To the OP: you summarized my concerns about Khorne Daemons very well and I agree with you on all points. Bloodthirsters are overcosted compared to Knights and need to be buffed. Bloodcrushers are no where near tough enough and need better saves to get the job done. Furies are a joke, I would not cost them more than 4 ppm.

I guess my only concern is whether 24 wounds would be enough. Knights get 24 wounds and ion shields.

Thirsters get (hypothetically) 24 wounds and the Armour of Scorn. That's a permanent 4++ rather than a CP-dependant 4++ that only works at range, no?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Thirsters get (hypothetically) 24 wounds and the Armour of Scorn. That's a permanent 4++ rather than a CP-dependant 4++ that only works at range, no?

It only applies to one thirster. And that thirster can get singled out just like the knight, but doesn't have the T8 to tank like a knight or the 24 wounds of a knight.

Also, comparing a knight, who is a primarily shooting unit, with a bloodthirster whom is a primarily melee unit, is like comparing the two phases they specialize in. Which in my opinion is hands down shooting is way more powerful than CC.

CC requires you to go through many hoops to get a hypothetical chance at doing some damage to your opponent(Move unit into charge range, take a round of shooting, roll randomly to see if your going to get into close combat and then do your to hit and wound rolls, while your opponent makes you take another round of shooting as he falls back the unit that was in CC), while shooting is basically point and click (Pick your unit, pick any amount of units, roll to hit and wound)

If CC is completely randomized while shooting is consistent, shouldn't the guaranteed able to dish out it's firepower every turn as long as it's alive unit be more expensive then the randomly see if you can get the chance to deal damage or die before you even get halfway across the board unit? cause if not then congratulations, you have a shooting based army and are totally biased in everything you say

It's almost as though I already made those points in the first post of the thread.