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So we do know that Space Marine age and that as they age their bodies change on some point. A Space Marine starts it's combat life around the age of 16, so in mid-late puberty for a human being. A normal men body changes over time. At 16 men are far from having reached their peek in terms of physical strength. In fact, at equal training they barely started to surpass women of the same age in terms of physical strength and mass. As men ages they gain in muscle mass and density to reach a peek at around the age of 30-35 after which they start to decline more or less fast. Do Space Marine pass through a similar transition is a scout Space Marines less strong than a Tactical Marine due to their age difference? What do you think?

I think due to their implants that age doesn't really affect them that much once they are fully a space marine. From that point on, genetic quirks seem to determine more of the difference for who has a higher strength or endurance ceiling rather than the biological age. You have to go to extreme ages like 800+ to start showing you slowing down, and often times it seems like it's tied more to injuries.

There's actually no real definite answer as to how marines age or are they functionality immortal from effects of age. Hundreds of years isn't anything that unusual. Longest living marine known so far(barring chaos ones) is around 1500 years. Certainly during HH marines thought themselves immune to dying from age but of course much like word bearers believing missing legions and ultramarine swelling being connected doesn't make it so they could have been in error.

What we can tell is that the marines are NOT similar to humans. They are artificially created and while I can't be 100% positive I think they are often referred as physically identical to marines, ie they have already gone through the process of implants, muscle growth etc. This being artificial process likely means there's not much difference between scout and marine. It's more of experience or lack of it that sets them apart(and equipment)

Based on several different sources I estimate the life span of a space marine to be around 3-5000 years.

The most recent reference to marines ageing is Primarchs peturabo, Warsmith Dantioch notes that the functional immortality of the space marines is a lie, he knows how long it takes to reduce his fortifications to rubble through wear and tear, the temporal weapons the H'Rud use causes this, so based upon that he estimates a marines "natural" life span is likely 3-5000 years baring injury or death.

Phosis T'Kar also notes that marine biology is absolutely not functionally immortal, he is an expert on marine biology right down to the molecular level.

tneva82 wrote:
There's actually no real definite answer as to how marines age or are they functionality immortal from effects of age. Hundreds of years isn't anything that unusual. Longest living marine known so far(barring chaos ones) is around 1500 years. Certainly during HH marines thought themselves immune to dying from age but of course much like word bearers believing missing legions and ultramarine swelling being connected doesn't make it so they could have been in error.

What we can tell is that the marines are NOT similar to humans. They are artificially created and while I can't be 100% positive I think they are often referred as physically identical to marines, ie they have already gone through the process of implants, muscle growth etc. This being artificial process likely means there's not much difference between scout and marine. It's more of experience or lack of it that sets them apart(and equipment)

The oldest space marine was a 10,000 year old salamander who became atrophied from lack of action but also age. Space Marines do age but it's an open question if the aging can in fact kill them, or at least do so in a timeframe observable in 40k.

Lets put this another way, the oldest current non warp marine is dante, at 1300 years old, that is not as long lived as the oldest Human Kyril synderman, 1500 years old.

 Formosa wrote:
Lets put this another way, the oldest current non warp marine is dante, at 1300 years old, that is not as long lived as the oldest Human Kyril synderman, 1500 years old.

The oldest human is Cawl. Kyril was just as augmented as any tech priest at the end of his life.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Lets put this another way, the oldest current non warp marine is dante, at 1300 years old, that is not as long lived as the oldest Human Kyril synderman, 1500 years old.

The oldest human is Cawl. Kyril was just as augmented as any tech priest at the end of his life.

It was his possession by Magnus that extended his life, Cawl is not human... has a human brain though

6th edition BRB says marines have a lifespan of two or three times of a normal man and Cassius is considered old nearing four hundred. So non-BA marines seem to have a lifespan of a few centuries.

 Crimson wrote:
6th edition BRB says marines have a lifespan of two or three times of a normal man and Cassius is considered old nearing four hundred. So non-BA marines seem to have a lifespan of a few centuries.

Except they don't because we have no mention of a marine actually dying of old age, and we know that the Imperial Fist stock can live for a thousand years just fine.

Humans can also live 400 years in 40k with rejuvenat, and I don't see any indication such things would not be available to apothecaries.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The oldest space marine was a 10,000 year old salamander who became atrophied from lack of action but also age. Space Marines do age but it's an open question if the aging can in fact kill them, or at least do so in a timeframe observable in 40k.

And he had probably been using the suspended animation implant for as long as possible at a time. Hibernation in a death-like state for 90-99% of the time will let him become old but it can't be good for the body to use it frequently and for long times.

For most other marines death in combat is a natural death and anyone reaching 400+ is a legendary figure. Barring the Blood Angels who seem to look young forever others do go grey and collect wrinkles if they reach that legendary age so there will be some limit after which their bodies fail, but it isn't a natural death for them.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The oldest space marine was a 10,000 year old salamander who became atrophied from lack of action but also age. Space Marines do age but it's an open question if the aging can in fact kill them, or at least do so in a timeframe observable in 40k.

And he had probably been using the suspended animation implant for as long as possible at a time. Hibernation in a death-like state for 90-99% of the time will let him become old but it can't be good for the body to use it frequently and for long times.

For most other marines death in combat is a natural death and anyone reaching 400+ is a legendary figure. Barring the Blood Angels who seem to look young forever others do go grey and collect wrinkles if they reach that legendary age so there will be some limit after which their bodies fail, but it isn't a natural death for them.

No, he had been aware the entire time. Age also has nothing to do with "legendary figure" Doylist nonsense, the books are full of multi century old marines who are just basic linemen of little notable rank, such as the protagonists of the Legacy of Caliban trilogy. All that matters is luck.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
6th edition BRB says marines have a lifespan of two or three times of a normal man and Cassius is considered old nearing four hundred. So non-BA marines seem to have a lifespan of a few centuries.

Except they don't because we have no mention of a marine actually dying of old age, and we know that the Imperial Fist stock can live for a thousand years just fine.

we don't have mention of an ogryn dying of old age either. It is just not the sort of thing that happens in 40K stories. My information is correct and yes there is contradicting information too. It is up to each reader how to interpret it.

Different Chapters age differently; Blood Angels seem to stay blond and good-looking forever, while Space Wolves become grey-haired, leathery-skinned hoary old badasses earlier than that.

Oh, and here is moreof that 'Doylist nonsense.' (actually common sense instead of nonsense.) In the studio material the marine lifespan was always meant to be centuries. Both Cassius and Dante deing noted as exceptionally old, and BA lifespan being described as peculiarly long for marines are testament of that. However, some BL authors missed this, and wrote in the early HH novels that marines are unaging. Some other author wrote some really long lived characters, possibly as a result of the first mistake. At some point someone at the GW noticed what had happened, and the authors were notified of their mistake, as a result there was some backpedalling, the earlier notion of marine immortality became being described as a mistake in the setting too (although it was originally just the author's mistake. ) Still, as a result of this, some mentions of crazy long lived marines exist, which directly contradict how the marines have been described in the studio fluff. It is really up to the reader whether they want to try to integrate this whole mess into a coherent whole or just disregard anomalous numbers like they were multilaser-armed terminators. (Or just accept that it is not a one continuous setting and enjoy each story as their own thing, and not worry about the big picture.)

Doylist?

Does it come with a cup of tea? Ah go on.

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, and here is moreof that 'Doylist nonsense.' (actually common sense instead of nonsense.) In the studio material the marine lifespan was always meant to be centuries. Both Cassius and Dante deing noted as exceptionally old, and BA lifespan being described as peculiarly long for marines are testament of that. However, some BL authors missed this, and wrote in the early HH novels that marines are unaging. Some other author wrote some really long lived characters, possibly as a result of the first mistake. At some point someone at the GW noticed what had happened, and the authors were notified of their mistake, as a result there was some backpedalling, the earlier notion of marine immortality became being described as a mistake in the setting too (although it was originally just the author's mistake. ) Still, as a result of this, some mentions of crazy long lived marines exist, which directly contradict how the marines have been described in the studio fluff. It is really up to the reader whether they want to try to integrate this whole mess into a coherent whole or just disregard anomalous numbers like they were multilaser-armed terminators. (Or just accept that it is not a one continuous setting and enjoy each story as their own thing, and not worry about the big picture.)

If Sigismund and Dante are anything to go by, I think the outliers can easily be seperated by strength of will. Both these characters force(d) themselves to keep going and were/are exceptional Marines. Maybe Marines simply vary in lifespan a considerable degree. Stress is a huge impact on life-expectancy, so perhaps those Marines who can better cope with stress are those who age less quickly.

In addition, the Space Marines created during the Great Crusade may be generally more long lived, simply due to less tech and geneseed decay.

Considering Marines are only about 200 years old by the Horus Heresy, I also don't think it is odd for people to consider them immortal at the time, and only later find out they do degrade slowly with age. Of course, I think the actual reason is still over-enthusiastic writers, but it makes a good post-hoc justification during the Great Crusade.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Doylist?

Simply put, 'Doylist' means stuff relating to the author or the world outside the narrative/setting. As distinguished from 'Watsonian', which is stuff entirely within the setting.

For example, we can say that the banter between those two Word Bearers about the Ultramarines absorbing the II and XI Legions is probably not true, because there's nothing else in the HH fluff that supports it being true, while there's plenty of fluff showing that the Word Bearers have a grudge against the Ultras and are prone to believing all kinds of nonsense just because they want it to be true. That's a Watsonian argument.

Or we can say that it's probably not true because ADB, the author of that book, has said it was never meant to be true, but just something those two characters believed. That's a Doylist argument.

Well this will be left likely non proven. To prove it either gw needs to say one way or another(unlikely) or marine in story needs to die to old age(unlikely to live that long anyway and would make odd story for 40k)

This is a question that can't be answered for one simple reason. As far as i'm aware, we have no examples of a marine passing in their sleep or dying an otherwise natural death. Without that we have vague mentions of marines living a few centuries and that Blood Angels tend to live longer and superficially age far slower. How ever due to the fact that Marines in non stop dangerous situations are likely to die in combat, we have no idea how long a marine would last if you put one down on a farm planet and told him to go grow some corn.

On the BA/ Dante front, it's complicated by what was a blood -theme- with communion overtones and dark hints of vampirism being discarded in favor of straightforward, actual vampirism.

Which leads to Dante completely regaining his vigor and health from eating his personal servant. He was old and aged, and then magically he wasn't, which indicates it isn't normal changes from being a space marine, but a quirk of Sanguinius' Blood or some gene seed mutation, not a property of the standard SM transformation

Voss wrote:
On the BA/ Dante front, it's complicated by what was a blood -theme- with communion overtones and dark hints of vampirism being discarded in favor of straightforward, actual vampirism.

Which leads to Dante completely regaining his vigor and health from eating his personal servant. He was old and aged, and then magically he wasn't, which indicates it isn't normal changes from being a space marine, but a quirk of Sanguinius' Blood or some gene seed mutation, not a property of the standard SM transformation

What?

Beside questions of marines longevity or immortality, do you think marines pass through a proccess of maturing, peeking and degrading as they age? Are very young or old Space Marines less physically apt than mature Space Marines?

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, and here is moreof that 'Doylist nonsense.' (actually common sense instead of nonsense.) In the studio material the marine lifespan was always meant to be centuries. Both Cassius and Dante deing noted as exceptionally old, and BA lifespan being described as peculiarly long for marines are testament of that. However, some BL authors missed this, and wrote in the early HH novels that marines are unaging. Some other author wrote some really long lived characters, possibly as a result of the first mistake. At some point someone at the GW noticed what had happened, and the authors were notified of their mistake, as a result there was some backpedalling, the earlier notion of marine immortality became being described as a mistake in the setting too (although it was originally just the author's mistake. ) Still, as a result of this, some mentions of crazy long lived marines exist, which directly contradict how the marines have been described in the studio fluff. It is really up to the reader whether they want to try to integrate this whole mess into a coherent whole or just disregard anomalous numbers like they were multilaser-armed terminators. (Or just accept that it is not a one continuous setting and enjoy each story as their own thing, and not worry about the big picture.)

you keep holding studio fluff up as the end all and be all dude but.... that's not really the case, ideas from BL get borrowed by the studio writers all the time, especially if they're popular, case in point go abck to the 5th edition space marine codex and Uriel Ventris wasn't mentioned in codex space Marines, it was noted that the previous captain ahd died and was yet to be replaced, yet now he's mentioned by name, and even his victory at Taris Ultra is mentioned in the Tyranids Codex.

The BL books are popular, more popular I might add then 40k itself is, thus things that are common place across black library are canon, if only something that is later swung into studio fluff by sheer osmosis.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Oh, and here is moreof that 'Doylist nonsense.' (actually common sense instead of nonsense.) In the studio material the marine lifespan was always meant to be centuries. Both Cassius and Dante deing noted as exceptionally old, and BA lifespan being described as peculiarly long for marines are testament of that. However, some BL authors missed this, and wrote in the early HH novels that marines are unaging. Some other author wrote some really long lived characters, possibly as a result of the first mistake. At some point someone at the GW noticed what had happened, and the authors were notified of their mistake, as a result there was some backpedalling, the earlier notion of marine immortality became being described as a mistake in the setting too (although it was originally just the author's mistake. ) Still, as a result of this, some mentions of crazy long lived marines exist, which directly contradict how the marines have been described in the studio fluff. It is really up to the reader whether they want to try to integrate this whole mess into a coherent whole or just disregard anomalous numbers like they were multilaser-armed terminators. (Or just accept that it is not a one continuous setting and enjoy each story as their own thing, and not worry about the big picture.)

you keep holding studio fluff up as the end all and be all dude but.... that's not really the case, ideas from BL get borrowed by the studio writers all the time, especially if they're popular, case in point go abck to the 5th edition space marine codex and Uriel Ventris wasn't mentioned in codex space Marines, it was noted that the previous captain ahd died and was yet to be replaced, yet now he's mentioned by name, and even his victory at Taris Ultra is mentioned in the Tyranids Codex.

The BL books are popular, more popular I might add then 40k itself is, thus things that are common place across black library are canon, if only something that is later swung into studio fluff by sheer osmosis.

I explained how the thing (probably) happened. How you interpret the resulting situation is up to you. Personally I have some reservations about things originating from BL, especially when it contradicts the studio fluff, because their authors (by necessity) have pretty great creative freedom.Their stories often require more detail than, say a codex; they need to make a lot of stuff up, and when they do so, they're not necessarily consistent with previous fluff or with other BL authors. I just do not try to treat the thing as one whole coherent whole, as it really isn't. Codex writers may think in one way, ADB in another and Abnett yet in third way.

Yep, the fluff goes black library ————> studio————————————-> games

One need only look at the heresy series to know that’s the case.

 Formosa wrote:
Yep, the fluff goes black library ————> studio————————————-> games

One need only look at the heresy series to know that’s the case.

Nah. The fluff goes models->studio fluff->BL. The whole thing is written to sell models, that's like its whole purpose; BL is just expanding the fluff for toy soldiers.

 Haighus wrote:

In addition, the Space Marines created during the Great Crusade may be generally more long lived, simply due to less tech and geneseed decay.

I like this as an answer. We've seen with the like of Fabius that an imperfect implantation can severely damage lifespan. It makes sense that after so many generations; the Space Marine geneseed is no longer capable of sustaining life through old age in the way it once did.

An interesting facet is in the Slamander Novels, where a pre-heresy Salamander Marine is found. He's still alive, but in such a fragile condition that he can't be moved and instead has to be given the Emperor's mercy. This should establish that aging does occur but it's incredibly slow.