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It's a simple question, but because it's meta, it requires veterans to answer.
I have a vague memory that the background of the Alpha Legion started changing before Dan Abnett published Legion in 2008. In other words, that designers started throwing titbits and suggestions that the Alpha Legion might not be 100% chaotic before 2008. I even have a specific memory, corroborated by a comrade on the internet, but I'm not sure it isn't a Mandela effect...
Am I inventing this or not? When did GW decide that it would sow doubt about the AL?

Probably in their White Dwarf Index Astartes article during 3rd edition. In 1st edition, they were a Slaaneshi Chapter, in 2nd edition they were unaligned but known for setting traps and ambushes, in 3rd edition it went over the top. LKegion might have been the point where it was suggested that they might have thought they were secretly on the good guys' side. Although I'd say that including daemons in their warbands and hanging out with Abaddon and the like might make it a little obvious as to what side they're on. There's only so far self-delusion can take you.

I checked the 3rd Index Astartes and didn't find anything there.

My vague memory was of a little titbit during the Eye of Terror campaign... Which would have been 5 years before Legion was published.

10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. Were they to turn out to be loyalists on a mission, that would be hard to accept.

Just skimmed the Codex: Eye of Terror and did not see anything referencing the loyalty of Alpha Legion. They are listed as having had 20+ unconfirmed sightings in the order of battle.

Here's another question about their lore: before Legion, was there an Omegon? I can't remember references to him before that book.

I think part of it also has to do with Alpharius and Omegon. Omegon is known for "sabotaging" Alpharius's plans and it isn't known whether Omegon truly sided with Horus (don't quote me on this).
So the theory is that when Alpharius was killed and Omegon took his place, Omegon tried to steer the Legion back to loyal by using their sneaky tactic to sabotage Chaos.

There are obviously AL warbands that may not truly know this and are truly corrupt, but that may not have been the goal for the Legion as a whole.

There is also the story (not sure where it is) that Alpharius was shown a vision of the outcome of the Heresy and if Horus won and slew the Emperor, he would rule for a whiel but his guilt would overcome him, he would break free from Chaos and steer the Imperium back to the ideal society that EMPs intended.

However, this could have been a false vision given to him by Chaos as Chaos actually wanted Horus to fail and plunge the Imperium into the Grim-Dark it is now, seeing as the Galaxy is now ideal for Chaos to corrupt.

Just some thoughts/theories based on things I've heard. Unfortunately cannot back any of it up

-

Oh, I'm not saying they're still loyalist, whatever their initial motives might have been. I'm pretty certain that after 10,000 years they're corrupt. There could be some confusion as to why they turned to Chaos and what their current objectives are however, especially since most AL legionaries are not based in the Eye of Terror.
As someone said in another thread they're closer to renegades than rebels. But renegades they are, for sure.

Remember, my question is meta. It's about when Games Workshop started changing their background.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Here's another question about their lore: before Legion, was there an Omegon? I can't remember references to him before that book.

I believe Omegon was the true revelation of Legion.

Honestly, the alpha legion would be better off with a propper not memey rewrite....

Basically all authors have done with them is show that they are a huge meme.

I think some are and some are not and no one knows the difference, even them.

 techsoldaten wrote:
10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. Were they to turn out to be loyalists on a mission, that would be hard to accept.

It's simple, they are Eve Online players.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. Were they to turn out to be loyalists on a mission, that would be hard to accept.

It's simple, they are Eve Online players.

I dunno by now you would have thought the Alpha Legion wouldf have robbed the corperation bank and left to laugh at them

 techsoldaten wrote:
10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. .

Something which I think a lot of people overlook when they claim the Legion events as somehow affecting the background of the Alpha Legion in 40k.

Regardless of their motivations at the time of the Heresy, it seems fairly clear that by the 41st millennium, they're on the side of the bad guys.

And, ultimately, when if they do still secretly believe they're doing what they're doing for the good of the Imperium, that doesn't actually change anything. They still fight for Chaos.

 insaniak wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. .

Something which I think a lot of people overlook when they claim the Legion events as somehow affecting the background of the Alpha Legion in 40k.

Regardless of their motivations at the time of the Heresy, it seems fairly clear that by the 41st millennium, they're on the side of the bad guys.

And, ultimately, when if they do still secretly believe they're doing what they're doing for the good of the Imperium, that doesn't actually change anything. They still fight for Chaos.

Honestly I suspect that the Alpha Legion has "lost the thread" ages ago. bsicly they've proably lost eneugh of their original command staff that they no longer know WHY they're fighting for chaos.

Alpha Legion is (probably) one of the more scattered legions as well. Individual cells might have their own agenda and as one of the few marine factions that would go as far as to repaint themselves on the fly if the mission serves, potentially forces that are loyal may really be Alpha incognito.

Index Astartes clearly portrays them as traitors, but also points out that even during the Heresy, they often acted like they were fighting their own war with no connection to Horus’s, and/or they sometimes seemed to pick battles just to test themselves against the loyalists. Not much of a connection to Chaos, either; they didn’t follow the other legions into the Eye of Terror, and a lot of (not all) the Chaos cults they foster are not like most.

Omegon and Alpha Legion infighting were new to the Black Library series. I hope Omegon’s story pays off - for a long time it’s felt like a story arc that the writers had lost control of.

I think that the Vraks Campaign books hint at the idea that in 40k the Alpha Legions true motives are perhaps less obvious than just pure evil shenanigans for Chaos. I’ll have to thumb through them though.

After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

One of the big themes of Chaos Space Marines is that regardless of their original intentions they tend to lose the thread after a few (hundred/thousand) years, with the notion of selfishness being a close second.

I couldn’t find anything in Vraks, but I’m almost certain I remember reading some IC stuff about how an Imperial official had noted that systems that were plagued by Alpha Legion operations (while in the short term they suffered) were eventually left stronger in the long run after the conflict ended. Anyone remember that? Perhaps the Alpha Legion Chapter approved article?

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

I tend to see the other legions as not being dedicated to one god but being perhaps heavily influanced by one, Alpha Legion I see as Tzeetch influanced, Iron Warriors I see as being somewhat nurgle influenced (a MAAAAJOR component of siege warfare is disease)

just for example.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

Night lords were explicitly Khornate originally (in slaves to Darkness)

More modern books put a lot of Khorne sub-cults in the Iron Warriors.

Problem is, Khorne lends himself more to the nature of space marines. Tzeentch can fit an oddball chapter like AL, Nurgle comes under desperate circumstances and Slaanesh.... Well, that requires a lot of convoluted nonsense just to make the EC work, bypassing their martial pride and drive for perfection (which should lend itself to Khorne), jumping over the normal decadent hedonism of Slaanesh (as it still seems unlikely that SM even can indulge in sex or drugs) and straight into something something sensory input shenanigans via loud music. The HH Novel of their fall did them few favors in this regard.

Voss wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

Night lords were explicitly Khornate originally (in slaves to Darkness)

More modern books put a lot of Khorne sub-cults in the Iron Warriors.

Problem is, Khorne lends himself more to the nature of space marines. Tzeentch can fit an oddball chapter like AL, Nurgle comes under desperate circumstances and Slaanesh.... Well, that requires a lot of convoluted nonsense just to make the EC work, bypassing their martial pride and drive for perfection (which should lend itself to Khorne), jumping over the normal decadent hedonism of Slaanesh (as it still seems unlikely that SM even can indulge in sex or drugs) and straight into something something sensory input shenanigans via loud music. The HH Novel of their fall did them few favors in this regard.

Question: did the early Rogue Trader books really have a concept of warbands / shattered legions? My hazy recollection was that they provided rules for entire Chaos Marine Legions, complete with World Eater Librarians (who were not psykers, their job was to count the skulls) and Apothecaries.

The answer relates to the question about Alpha Legion loyalties. We think about Chaos Legions as legions, but the reality is they are warbands. Alphas are trained to act independently and in secrecy. Who is to say there's not still some Alpha Legion warbands who are holding out in defense of the Imperium? It would be interesting to think about a portion of the Chapter branching off at some point, still operating in parallel with other warbands but with a totally different purpose.

Iirc, the biggest mystery about the Alpha Legion before Legion was the battle that Alpharius was supposedly killed in. Beyond that they were noted to still use the "For the Emperor" battle cry, which was taken as being mocking, and the fact that some, but not all, of their raids actually pulled the Imperium's resources to where something else later hit.

Omegon didn't exist before Legion, the big question about their loyalty is from Legion, and the stuper spy thing is from Legion. Before they were simply noted to use a lot of human cultists and a few agents in the Imperium.

An example of the latter note is that it was thought that the in-world guy who did the write up on the Alpha Legion turned out to be an Legion agent. To be fair though, the cultists is a logical extension of using human agents, but I think they took it a bit too far with that in later books.

If anyone could pull off a 10,000 year con it would be Alpha Legion.

 rippounet wrote:

It's a simple question, but because it's meta, it requires veterans to answer.
I have a vague memory that the background of the Alpha Legion started changing before Dan Abnett published Legion in 2008. In other words, that designers started throwing titbits and suggestions that the Alpha Legion might not be 100% chaotic before 2008. I even have a specific memory, corroborated by a comrade on the internet, but I'm not sure it isn't a Mandela effect...
Am I inventing this or not? When did GW decide that it would sow doubt about the AL?

2nd edition states that they broke away from Horus and started doing missions on their own but no real allegiance stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

I tend to see the other legions as not being dedicated to one god but being perhaps heavily influanced by one, Alpha Legion I see as Tzeetch influanced, Iron Warriors I see as being somewhat nurgle influenced (a MAAAAJOR component of siege warfare is disease)

just for example.

Nah, look at Kharn he called the Hounds of Abaddon a bunch of pretenders and attacked them for giving their allegiance to Abaddon rather than just Khorne, Kharn is fanatical when it comes to Khorne as is Typhus to Nurgle etc. If you are talking about just undivided then I'd some what agree, they'd follow or do favours for the gods as circumstance and opportunity dictated.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
After 10,000 years we can definitely say they're not exactly the good guys, for sure. What would be interesting for them is if they aren't even sure of their own motivations any more, as their schemes became more and more convoluted and the end goal less and less tangible.

Always been really bizarre to me that the Alpha Legion isn't specifically a Tzeentch cult, they exemplify his scheming aspect as well as the Thousand Sons do the magic and thirst for knowledge portions of his portfolio. I guess that'd ruin the symmetry of each god having exactly one cult legion, since there isn't nearly as clear cut of a choice for a second legion for the other gods.

Night lords were explicitly Khornate originally (in slaves to Darkness)

More modern books put a lot of Khorne sub-cults in the Iron Warriors.

Problem is, Khorne lends himself more to the nature of space marines. Tzeentch can fit an oddball chapter like AL, Nurgle comes under desperate circumstances and Slaanesh.... Well, that requires a lot of convoluted nonsense just to make the EC work, bypassing their martial pride and drive for perfection (which should lend itself to Khorne), jumping over the normal decadent hedonism of Slaanesh (as it still seems unlikely that SM even can indulge in sex or drugs) and straight into something something sensory input shenanigans via loud music. The HH Novel of their fall did them few favors in this regard.

Question: did the early Rogue Trader books really have a concept of warbands / shattered legions? My hazy recollection was that they provided rules for entire Chaos Marine Legions, complete with World Eater Librarians (who were not psykers, their job was to count the skulls) and Apothecaries.

Well, if you're referring to the Realm of Chaos books, then not really. Black Legion are described as pretty wrecked, and jumped from god to god (with a lot of daemonic possession) in search of power and then the Horus clones happened and they were pretty much trashed. But... the snippets on the 'legions' are weird. World Eaters are described as regarding themselves as loyalists, and later founding marines are decadent and off the true path under the false emperor.
It also uses Chapter and Legion interchangeably.

You're largely right about WE librarians. They exist, have no powers, and are there for counting the slain and Coms. But they're full fledged characters and the chief librarian could have a daemon weapon and rewards.

The answer relates to the question about Alpha Legion loyalties. We think about Chaos Legions as legions, but the reality is they are warbands. Alphas are trained to act independently and in secrecy. Who is to say there's not still some Alpha Legion warbands who are holding out in defense of the Imperium? It would be interesting to think about a portion of the Chapter branching off at some point, still operating in parallel with other warbands but with a totally different purpose.

Sure. It gets very silly, but entirely possible.

 agurus1 wrote:
I couldn’t find anything in Vraks, but I’m almost certain I remember reading some IC stuff about how an Imperial official had noted that systems that were plagued by Alpha Legion operations (while in the short term they suffered) were eventually left stronger in the long run after the conflict ended. Anyone remember that? Perhaps the Alpha Legion Chapter approved article?

I suspect you're thinking of the fluff for the Voice of the Emperor on page 11 of Codex Eye of Terror, the MO does sound like the Alpha Legion but the description of a 'a hooded figure carrying a sword and a pair of exquisite pistols' is generally assumed to mean Cypher.

 agurus1 wrote:
I think that the Vraks Campaign books hint at the idea that in 40k the Alpha Legions true motives are perhaps less obvious than just pure evil shenanigans for Chaos. I’ll have to thumb through them though.

The Alpha Legion warlord was the eminence gris on Vraks, edging out the original traitor Cardinal, but they were definitely chaotic - hanging out with chaos sorcerors and daemons was a bit of a giveaway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Question: did the early Rogue Trader books really have a concept of warbands / shattered legions? My hazy recollection was that they provided rules for entire Chaos Marine Legions, complete with World Eater Librarians (who were not psykers, their job was to count the skulls) and Apothecaries.

The first book had army lists for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children and Black Legion (and Grey Knights). All three of those were portrayed as having the full complement of officers and specialist units (tactical, assault, devastator) as loyal Space Marines, although the unit sizes were 8 and 6 for the World Eaters and Emperor's Children respectively. World Eaters techmarines were in charge of the mobs of slave beastmen with explosive collars. At the scale of a game of 1st edition 40k, the difference between a warband or a larger force is only a background matter.

"Chapter" was the term for Space Marine forces during the Heresy in 1st edition. "Legion" was used in a metaphorical way to describe the chaos forces but was of no real importance in the history.


In the 2nd book, the Chaos Space Marine forces were reduced to a single unit entry of Death Guard or Thousand Sons in the Nurgle Renegade and Tzeentch Renegades lists (which were army lists for Chaos forces in general, not just traitor chapters; they included cultists, sorcerors, beastmen, ogryns, etc, etc...)

IIRC, the Alpha Legion (and Iron Warriors) were originally followers of Slaanesh, with the Word Bearers and Night Lords being Khornate.

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
10,000 years is a lot of effort for a long con. Were they to turn out to be loyalists on a mission, that would be hard to accept.

It's simple, they are Eve Online players.

I dunno by now you would have thought the Alpha Legion wouldf have robbed the corperation bank and left to laugh at them

They are playing the long con. Basically waiting for chaos to get the upper hand then stealing all the in production titans dropping sov in the eye of terror and disbanding the chaos alliance.

I think that basically, no one here has been reading the last few chaos codex's. And if we go by the GW statement that codex trumps all then we have to refer to it. The Alpha Legion are very much a faction of chaos marines. They have demon princes in positions of leadership. They have numerous sorc's they use to mess things up. They have destroyed imperial targets by simply summoning swarms of demons. They haven't lost any thread. They are full on "bad guys". All of this information can be found in the current 8th edition codex. Now as to why some people are so stuck on a idea present a decade and a half ago is beyond me. Even if it was cannon then, it is not now. The cannon has been re-written a few times and this would be no different.

One more thing to note. The Alpha Legion worked hand in hand with Magnus and the Sons to create the current and horrible position the imperium is in. They are the two legions who have done the most to bring this about. To call them arch traitors is not enough. The two legions have done what others have failed to do. Break the imperium in two. Doesn't sound like "good guys" to me. So, in summation, if you read the actual codex then you would know that the AL are a chaos legion that makes full use of chaos.