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Hey guys, I just wanted to ask you a question, so does orks Mek gunz and killakanz counts as cretchin units? This because i'm planning to play with Bad moons. Thanks.

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey guys, I just wanted to ask you a question, so does orks Mek gunz and killakanz counts as cretchin units? This because i'm planning to play with Bad moons. Thanks.

Yes, they do. Every model in the unit has the GRETCHIN keyword. Mek Gunz especially now explicitly don't benefit from Kultur.

From page 124 of Codex Orks:

Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit from any Clan Kultur.

So the answer to your question is any unit in which all of the models have the GRETCHIN keyword.

So basically gretchins(well duh), killa kans and mek guns. If datasheet has one line for keywords and has gretchin no kulture. If 2 like with nobs the ammo runt gets

Why are we assuming this is correct?
I realize they have the Gretchin Keyword, but please hear me out:

First, page 124 Says, "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." benefit from Kultur rules and non-specific stratagems.
It doesn't mention the Gretchin keyword. It specifies that the unit needs to be compromised entirely of Gretchin.

To address the Keyword issue, though, Mek Gunz also have the Keywords Vehicle, Artillery, and Mek Gunz. So, Gretchin isn't it's only Keyword (unlike the Gretchin troop selection, which only has Infantry and Gretchin as Keywords). Even if we ignore the Keywords that discuss unit type (Vehicle and Artillery), we still have "Mek Gunz" in there. With the troop selection, that leaves us with only Gretchin as a keyword if we ignore the unit type (etc) keywords.

Lastly, if you look at the unit description near the top, it says, "This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew..." So, it clearly states there that the unit contains a Mek Gun. If it has a Mek Gun, then it's not JUST Gretchin.
Look at the Gretchin Troop unit and their description only refers to Gretchin.

My same opinion goes for Killa Kans.


My thought is that, until it's FAQed, RAW indicates that the only unit that cannot use Kultur and non-specific strategems is The Gretchin Troops selection. I do think it needs to be FAQed, though. Because, if they intended it the way I am reading it, they could have said that the Gretchin Troop selection (or a more specific verbiage) cannot (etc). If they wanted to exclude all units with the Gretchin keyword, they could have indicated that, rather than "comprised entirely of Gretchin."

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:
First, page 124 Says, "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." benefit from Kultur rules and non-specific stratagems.
It doesn't mention the Gretchin keyword. It specifies that the unit needs to be compromised entirely of Gretchin.

I don't know which version of the codex you're referring to, but it most assuredly does mention the GRETCHIN keyword. From page 124 of Codex Orks

Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit from any Clan Kultur.

 Ghaz wrote:

 MagickalMemories wrote:
First, page 124 Says, "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." benefit from Kultur rules and non-specific stratagems.
It doesn't mention the Gretchin keyword. It specifies that the unit needs to be compromised entirely of Gretchin.

I don't know which version of the codex you're referring to, but it most assuredly does mention the GRETCHIN keyword. From page 124 of Codex Orks

Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit from any Clan Kultur.

And all keywords don't need to be gretchin. Other keywords don't remove keyword. Or are assault marines not space marines because they have other keywords as well?

If all models have gretchin keyword it is all gretchin unit. Mek guns have only 1 line of keywords. Ergo all models have those keywords. Which include gretchin.

Let it go. No deathskull msu spam

You can use deathskulls big guns though, as they have a diferent line from the crew, but they dont get dakkadakkadakka as they are only in the index.

But yeah, if all the models of a unit have the keyword GRETCHIN then that unit is a unit comprised entirely of GRETCHIN.

Meaning gretchins, Killa Kans and mek guns dont get clan kultur sadly.

If it was only the actual unit of Gretchin that don't benefit from a Kultur, I suppose it would have been more convenient to mention on their datasheet only. Which leads to the conclusion that there are more units comprised of only Gretchin, e.g. Killa Kans and Mek Guns.

I really don't understand the straw grasping that is going on from certain ork players, I know that Mek guns with clan abilities would be really good (cough, deathskulls, cough) but neither the rules or the fluff/intent support the argument. Trying to make a unit that would be borderline broken is in no ones interest.

As has been mentioned above the whole unit has the Gretchin Keyword so that is covered by the rules but also the intent behind the rule is that only orks benefit from the clan abilities, the Mek gun/kan is just a bit of equipment the Grots are using why on earth would it give them a clan ability its not an ork.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I really don't understand the straw grasping that is going on from certain ork players, I know that big guns with clan abilities would be really good (cough, deathskulls, cough) but neither the rules or the fluff/intent support the argument. Trying to make a unit that would be borderline broken is in no ones interest.

As has been mentioned above the whole unit has the Gretchin Keyword so that is covered by the rules but also the intent behind the rule is that only orks benefit from the clan abilities, the big gun/kan is just a bit of equipment the Grots are using why on earth would it give them a clan ability its not an ork.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Big Gunz (the guns themselves, not the crew) absolutely 110% benefit from Kulturs right now and don't have Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!. They need to errata Big Gunz in order for them not to benefit from Kultur. What the "fluff" says is meaningless. The "intent" is what the rules as written say.

The whole unit does NOT have the Gretchin keyword, only the crew do.

I agree with the majority idea here that if every model in the unit has the gretchin keyword then the unit is entirely made up of gretchin. A lot of people are getting confused with the fact that mek gunz are comprised of 1 mek gun and 6 crew but I think the rules team have tried to clarify this by the snowflake ruling that once on the table all 7 models are treated as 1 model as per there rules. When I first saw that rule I scratched my head wondering why they did that but now I see people desperately trying to give mek gunz kulturs I understand now why it exists. If it is one model for all rules purposes then every model in a mek gun unit now has the gretchin keyword.

The only counterpoint to this is, are there actually any units in the codex that are not entirely gretchin but have some grecthin in them? For example are gretchin with a runtherd able to get kulturs?

 Nithaniel wrote:
I agree with the majority idea here that if every model in the unit has the gretchin keyword then the unit is entirely made up of gretchin. A lot of people are getting confused with the fact that mek gunz are comprised of 1 mek gun and 6 crew but I think the rules team have tried to clarify this by the snowflake ruling that once on the table all 7 models are treated as 1 model as per there rules. When I first saw that rule I scratched my head wondering why they did that but now I see people desperately trying to give mek gunz kulturs I understand now why it exists. If it is one model for all rules purposes then every model in a mek gun unit now has the gretchin keyword.

The only counterpoint to this is, are there actually any units in the codex that are not entirely gretchin but have some grecthin in them? For example are gretchin with a runtherd able to get kulturs?

Runtherds are totally independent units, they aren't part of the Gretchin units. Similar to how Painboys or Nob with Waaagh! banner work.

Units that have Grot Oilers, Ammo Runts or Grot Orderlies are mixed Gretchin/Non-Gretchin units.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I agree with the majority idea here that if every model in the unit has the gretchin keyword then the unit is entirely made up of gretchin. A lot of people are getting confused with the fact that mek gunz are comprised of 1 mek gun and 6 crew but I think the rules team have tried to clarify this by the snowflake ruling that once on the table all 7 models are treated as 1 model as per there rules. When I first saw that rule I scratched my head wondering why they did that but now I see people desperately trying to give mek gunz kulturs I understand now why it exists. If it is one model for all rules purposes then every model in a mek gun unit now has the gretchin keyword.

The only counterpoint to this is, are there actually any units in the codex that are not entirely gretchin but have some grecthin in them? For example are gretchin with a runtherd able to get kulturs?

It would be irrelevant. The mek gun itself also has gretchin keyword. It works on KEYWORDS. There's only one line of keywords for the unit. Thus all models in the unit has GRETCHIN keyword.

Runtherd is solo model so not relevant.

Where you get non-all gretchin units is like nobs and ammo runts.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
I really don't understand the straw grasping that is going on from certain ork players, I know that big guns with clan abilities would be really good (cough, deathskulls, cough) but neither the rules or the fluff/intent support the argument. Trying to make a unit that would be borderline broken is in no ones interest.

As has been mentioned above the whole unit has the Gretchin Keyword so that is covered by the rules but also the intent behind the rule is that only orks benefit from the clan abilities, the big gun/kan is just a bit of equipment the Grots are using why on earth would it give them a clan ability its not an ork.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Big Gunz (the guns themselves, not the crew) absolutely 110% benefit from Kulturs right now and don't have Dakka! Dakka! Dakka!. They need to errata Big Gunz in order for them not to benefit from Kultur. What the "fluff" says is meaningless. The "intent" is what the rules as written say.

The whole unit does NOT have the Gretchin keyword, only the crew do.

My apologies, I put big gun in my post when I meant Mek gun

I agree that big guns certainly do have a kultur but hopefully GW will clear this up and FAQ the index entries when they do the codex FAQ. Giving everything DDD would be good and fixing the big gun crew rules that are a right mess would be good and bring them back in line with mek guns.

Ah thanks for the clarfication on mixed grot units.

So all cultures and most strats won't work with grot units. The only one that I can find that might have some mileage is the Snakebite strat I think its called monster hunters (don't have my dex to hand), Its something like target enemy model with wounds over 10, add 1 to wound rolls against that model made by snakebite units for the phase. but its 3cp

If you take mek gunz in a snakebite detachment I'm assuming they would benefit from the strat. They are not specifically being targeted by the strat and do get the clan keyword.

Is this correct?

If the stratagem works like you said, then, yes, grot units would benefit from +1 to wound.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Ah thanks for the clarfication on mixed grot units.

So all cultures and most strats won't work with grot units. The only one that I can find that might have some mileage is the Snakebite strat I think its called monster hunters (don't have my dex to hand), Its something like target enemy model with wounds over 10, add 1 to wound rolls against that model made by snakebite units for the phase. but its 3cp

If you take mek gunz in a snakebite detachment I'm assuming they would benefit from the strat. They are not specifically being targeted by the strat and do get the clan keyword.

Is this correct?

You are correct. The Grots rule explicitly states "Ork Stratagems can only be used on these units if the Stratagem explicitly states so." Monster Hunters is used on an enemy unit, and the Grots rule doesn't prevent Gretchin units from benefiting from stratagems, you just can't use stratagems on them.

 Ghaz wrote:

 MagickalMemories wrote:
First, page 124 Says, "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." benefit from Kultur rules and non-specific stratagems.
It doesn't mention the Gretchin keyword. It specifies that the unit needs to be compromised entirely of Gretchin.

I don't know which version of the codex you're referring to, but it most assuredly does mention the GRETCHIN keyword. From page 124 of Codex Orks

Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit from any Clan Kultur.

I'm looking at the hard copy of the codex, where it doesn't specify that it's referencing the *keyword* gretchin. To reiterate my point, though, Mek Guns are not made up entirely of gretchin. They have 6 gretchin and one Mek Gun, as I quoted.

Eric


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I probably should've read everything in the thread before I started replying.

My bad.

I do have a point to make:
Everyone keeps saying, in one form or another, "units with the Gretchin keyword..."
Can someone point me where, in the codex (hard copy or digital) where it says disqualifies the gretchin Keyword in the Clan Kultur or unser "Grots?" All I see is where it says "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." without saying *anything* about keywords.

If the rules don't reference keywords, it's not fair for you to arbitrarily impose that requirement. It's not RAW.
Until a rule is FAQed, RAW should always be the default.

Also, to make it clear... I'm NOT a competitive player. Not by ANY stretch. I only game with my buddies in a private gaming area. I don't enter tournaments. I'm not WAAC. When I build a list, I base it on one of a few ideas:
I wonder how this would work...
This seems fun...
What would happen if...
(And the one that happens most often) - I don't really feel like thinking about an army build. I'm just going to throw together one of my go-to "quick lists."

The reason I looked this thread up was because I thought of an interesting combination, but it would utilize on Mek Gunz. Members of my group and I had already talked about Mek Gun units not being entirely comprised of gretchin, and I got curious what kind of discussions were happening here.

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:

I do have a point to make:
Everyone keeps saying, in one form or another, "units with the Gretchin keyword..."
Can someone point me where, in the codex (hard copy or digital) where it says disqualifies the gretchin Keyword in the Clan Kultur or unser "Grots?" All I see is where it says "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." without saying *anything* about keywords.

It's because it uses the keyword typeface - there is a difference, in rules, between it saying "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot benefit..." and "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit..."

The latter refers to anything tagged with the GRETCHIN keyword, and is how it appears in the book.

Horrible things, those cretchin, always stealing the cheese or carrying grandma off to the top of the curtains.

Aelyn wrote:

 MagickalMemories wrote:

I do have a point to make:
Everyone keeps saying, in one form or another, "units with the Gretchin keyword..."
Can someone point me where, in the codex (hard copy or digital) where it says disqualifies the gretchin Keyword in the Clan Kultur or unser "Grots?" All I see is where it says "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." without saying *anything* about keywords.

It's because it uses the keyword typeface - there is a difference, in rules, between it saying "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot benefit..." and "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit..."

The latter refers to anything tagged with the GRETCHIN keyword, and is how it appears in the book.

Also check 'Keywords' on page 175 of the main rulebook. It explains how to tell when a rule is referring to a keyword and not a unit name.

 MagickalMemories wrote:

I'm looking at the hard copy of the codex, where it doesn't specify that it's referencing the *keyword* gretchin. To reiterate my point, though, Mek Guns are not made up entirely of gretchin. They have 6 gretchin and one Mek Gun, as I quoted.

But it is keyword. It's bolded. It's refering to GRETCHIN and the mek guns have only one line for keywords which means all keywords apply to all models and it contains gretchin keyword which means all models including mek gun are gretchin. All model including grots are also vehicle. But of course as it's 1 model basically it's irrelevant. For example grot crew is never removed.

It does not get clan bonus. When do people stop trying to get them. It's been only 1+ years 8th ed has been out. One would think by now keywords would be clear enough. One line of keywords=all keywords apply to EVERY model in the unit. Mek guns have 1 line for keywords=all models in the unit have all the keywords. Vehicle, gretchin, whole package.

Yeah there is no possible way to argue that Mek Gunz benefit from a Kultur without literally ignoring the rules.

Big Gunz still benefit for now, but only because of a quirk of the Index Rules.

First,
Thanks all for pointing out the Keyword... font. Somehow, I'd missed it.

Wunzlez wrote:Horrible things, those cretchin, always stealing the cheese or carrying grandma off to the top of the curtains.

Those bastards! LOL

Ghaz wrote:

Aelyn wrote:
It's because it uses the keyword typeface - there is a difference, in rules, between it saying "Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot benefit..." and "Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit..."

The latter refers to anything tagged with the GRETCHIN keyword, and is how it appears in the book.

Also check 'Keywords' on page 175 of the main rulebook. It explains how to tell when a rule is referring to a keyword and not a unit name.

Yes. Unfortunately, though, the book (and PLEASE correct me if it's been FAQed, as I've missed it), that does't discuss directly how to handle a unit in which there are 2 Keywords that affect the stratagem differently, like they do in this case. Since the rule is ON:Y Gretchin, but this unit is also Mek Gunz, it isn't ONLY Gretchin.

tneva82 wrote:It's refering to GRETCHIN and the mek guns have only one line for keywords which means all keywords apply to all models and it contains gretchin keyword which means all models including mek gun are gretchin. All model including grots are also vehicle. But of course as it's 1 model basically it's irrelevant. For example grot crew is never removed.

It does not get clan bonus. When do people stop trying to get them. It's been only 1+ years 8th ed has been out. One would think by now keywords would be clear enough. One line of keywords=all keywords apply to EVERY model in the unit. Mek guns have 1 line for keywords=all models in the unit have all the keywords. Vehicle, gretchin, whole package.

Since they also have the Mek Gunz keyword, they're still not entirely comprised of Gretchin. Based on RAW, they're still comprised of Gretchin and Mek Gunz. Going by your statement that all the keywords apply to every model in the unit, and since the Keywords are all on the one line, as pointed out, it means they all have all those keywords. if they all have all those keywords, then it's not ENTIRELY Gretchin. One could argue, in fact, that even the Gretchin of that unit aren't entirely Gretchin, based on that.
I am NOT trying to make that argument because, despite the veracity of the claim or lack thereof, it wouldn't matter for this discussion.


This is all academic for me. As I said before, my group is ruling it as I've discussed here, until a FAQ says otherwise. I only game with them, so it won't "hurt" the games of anyone outside of my group if we're doing it wrong. Frankly, I just enjoy the discussion and exchange of thought processes. I haven't seen one yet but, if anyone puts forth something compelling to me,I'm totally open to changing my opinion. I just haven't seen that yet.

The crux of my opinion is this:
"Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." is a vague enough phrase to leave doubt. Since they have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin. Since they have the Mek Gunz keyword, they're also Mek Gunz. Therefore, they're MORE than the limiting language used in the rulebook. They aren't entirely Gretchin, they're Gretchin AND Mek Gunz. My preference would just be -as so often the case with GW rules- that GW used more specific verbiage.
Since there are no Orks in the unit, which the rule seems to want to imply, I capitulate that it DOES make sense that it wouldn't apply to them. But the RAW of it doesn't support that logic, IMO.


Eric

That isn't what "only Gretchin" means.

Using the logic above, a unit of Gretchin wouldn't be a "... unit comprised entirely of GRETCHIN..." because they also have the INFANTRY keyword...

 MagickalMemories wrote:

The crux of my opinion is this:
"Units comprised entirely of Gretchin cannot..." is a vague enough phrase to leave doubt. Since they have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin. Since they have the Mek Gunz keyword, they're also Mek Gunz. Therefore, they're MORE than the limiting language used in the rulebook. They aren't entirely Gretchin, they're Gretchin AND Mek Gunz. My preference would just be -as so often the case with GW rules- that GW used more specific verbiage.
Since there are no Orks in the unit, which the rule seems to want to imply, I capitulate that it DOES make sense that it wouldn't apply to them. But the RAW of it doesn't support that logic, IMO.

The language here is fine. "Units comprised entirely of gretchin" means units in which every model is a gretchin. Just like "Groups comprised entirely of humans" doesn't become invalid because those humans are also French. If the language had said "Units comprised entirely of models that are solely Gretchin" it would mean what you suggested earlier.

 Ghaz wrote:
Using the logic above, a unit of Gretchin wouldn't be a "... unit comprised entirely of GRETCHIN..." because they also have the INFANTRY keyword...

To be fair, reductio ad absurdum doesn't work in 8th edition rules discussions due to the amount of absurd things GW have confirmed as true and "intended" (re-rolls before modifiers, plasma exploding more when shooting at Eldar Painted Blue, etc). That being said, the original argument doesn't have merit due to it ignoring the syntax of English grammar.

In this case it shows an unintended side effect of the position he's arguing which would be that there is no units in the codex made up entirely of GRETCHIN.