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Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

As we all know magic in Warhammer can be overpowered, however the overpower is limited to one or two broken spells not the magic system in general which is more or less balanced.

So how about a house rule fix?

Concept
Powerful magicks such as battle spells are brought to mind via the fickle winds of magic. A competent wizard can cast most of or all of the seven spells on this list, but most cant recall more than one or two at any one time, barring minor more personal spells.
While spell access is random, a level one wizard could roll a 1 or a 6, spells are roughly tiered in each lore of magic with simpler spells at the lower numbers with more potent magicks. Most of the broken spells are number five or six on any lore list.
So why not make access to higher numbered spells more tenuous and fickle than simpler spells.
This house rule will change one of the mechanics of spellcasting while leaving everything else intact for minimum disruption of the game flow and with no effect on list building and on start of play.

Mechanics
All wizards generate spells normally according to their own rules.
However the number of each spell is recorded and becomes important in play.

When a spell is successfully cast compare the spell number to the wizard's level. If the spell number exceeds with wizard level the wizard must, after resolving the spell replace it with a spell with a number equal or lower than his wizard level from the same lore as the spell just cast. This may be the default spell.
- This represents a change in the winds of magic which the wizard may or may not have the strength to resist dependant on their power.

If a spell is not successfully there is no effect, and the same wizard may attempt to cast the same spell next turn.
- If the powers are not fully unleashed they remain to mind by the wizard, no matter how mighty the spell.

If a spell is miscast and the wizard loses magic levels apply the normal rules for the miscast and this rule does not apply here.
- If a wizard loses magic levels the spell that was miscast is lost anyway, there is no need to lose another one.

If the wizard is a Loremaster or otherwise knows all spells of his level or less to replace a higher level spell with, the cast spell is lost without compensation.
- The wizard can come to the battlefield with the Loremaster ability as normal, or items that allow additional spells, but some spells will be one use only.

Game effects
The number 6 spell becomes a once only cast, per battle, for any wizard, even Nagash and Teclis, the number 5 and 6 spell are once only for all normal wizard lords.
All the potent magicks are still present in overpowered form, however much is mitigated knowing that they can each be successfully cast only once.
A replacement spell can be any listed from the same lore numbered less than or equal to the wizards current level. This means that when one use spells are used up the wizard gains functionality of other spells in compensation. This tones down wizards but compensates them with additional versatility, and the higher the level the more potential choices available.

Variant rule
Randomise the replacement spell rather than allow choice. If a wizard successfully casts a spell with a spell number higher than their magic level roll a dice, if the dice roll is equal or higher than the spell number keep the spell, otherwise replace it with the numbered spell. If this spell is known the wizard may choose any spell numbered equal or lower to their magic level.
- This means a wizard can gain another spell above their power level, though always less than the spell number cast and has a chance of keeping the spell cast.
- This allows low level wizards a good chance to keep hold of medium level spells
- The replacement spell is random as with normal spell generation.


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Other issue was the remains in play spells that did that but were not called that so they ignored mechnics to deal with RIP spells..


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Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

One of the things that 7th got right (God, I think I can taste blood just TYPING that) is defining where power dice were generated, and who could use said dice. It stopped silly things like the Skink Shaman Batter Pack build for a Slann, and made people have to actually THINK about where spells went.

6th got it right by not having any massively damaging spells. The only ones that came close to being game breaking were either random damage that could work into Ragnarok level damage, or some high power spell that took dedicated effort to cast and a simple scroll to stop.

Some of the more... entertaining spells from 8th should have been kept aside for an Apocalypse level version of WFB, and had an amended Miscast chart to deal with it accordingly. A 2D6 S6 explosion from a miscasting Wizard might give some people pause before flinging Purple Sun ad nauseum.

So far, the 6th Edition magic as a whole, with the 3 amended Lores as well as the Dice Pool rules from 7th is about as good as I can imagine magic getting.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the problem with the ultra spells was that the consequences for it going wrong never really outweighed the risks of using it. Hence you could two dice a low level spell roll two 6s and pull the high level mage into the realms of chaos or you could have a low level mage six dice the ultra powerful spell and might get away with a scratch if it goes off with IF.

I would change the miscast sequence so that a more powerful spell increases the risk.

Something along the lines of:-

1) rearrange the the miscast table so that the worst outcomes have higher values (with perhaps more options)
2) If you miscast/IF then you roll on the table but with the following modifiers:-
+1 for each die used
- 1 for each level the wizard is after the first (so a level 2 wizard would get -1)

So if the level one wizard gets the uber spell and throws 6 dice at it then they would get +6 to the miscast roll with a good chance of blowing themselves up
On the other hand a high level wizard casting a low level spell will give themselves a good chance of causing insignificant damage (for example the 3 or less result could simply be that the spell isn't cast)

This should be a bit more reflective that a better wizard should be able to control the winds of magic more safely but there is still some risk to throwing everything at one option.

I don't like the idea of removing a players choice but rather provide them with a risk based approach.

Oh and finally no ward / saving throws against these wounds to stop silly high elf banner issues.





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Been Around the Block




I think the ideas are good!

I like magic in 8th. It's definitely powerful, but so is a miscast and you need sometimes a spell in case of massive OP hordes, and such.

I feel the moment hordes entered play, you needed something to combat them, and some of those powerful spells are it. Bring hordes at yor own peril, because the opponent could purple sun you to death.

LiveWaaaaagh.com 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Just Tony wrote:
One of the things that 7th got right (God, I think I can taste blood just TYPING that) is defining where power dice were generated, and who could use said dice. It stopped silly things like the Skink Shaman Batter Pack build for a Slann, and made people have to actually THINK about where spells went.

6th got it right by not having any massively damaging spells. The only ones that came close to being game breaking were either random damage that could work into Ragnarok level damage, or some high power spell that took dedicated effort to cast and a simple scroll to stop..


The trouble with magic in 6th was that it was largely underpowered. You would have few spells and randomised, this hasnt changed since 4th, but if you managed to get a spell off its a case of 'is that it?', there should have been more. There were exceptions including game breaking powerful spells in 6th, such as Green Fire and Flames of the Phoenix which completely overshadowed the spells in the core book. So much so that the overpowered cheese that developed later in the core lores is in fact a form of balance.

 Just Tony wrote:

Some of the more... entertaining spells from 8th should have been kept aside for an Apocalypse level version of WFB, and had an amended Miscast chart to deal with it accordingly. A 2D6 S6 explosion from a miscasting Wizard might give some people pause before flinging Purple Sun ad nauseum.


Have you seen the actual apocalyptic spells in 8th, some are tantamount to soaking the game table in oil and applying a flame.

 Whirlwind wrote:
I think the problem with the ultra spells was that the consequences for it going wrong never really outweighed the risks of using it. Hence you could two dice a low level spell roll two 6s and pull the high level mage into the realms of chaos or you could have a low level mage six dice the ultra powerful spell and might get away with a scratch if it goes off with IF.


9th Age fixed this, each miscast event was mitigated for good or ill by the number of dice used in casting. You could not die from a two dice spell, and you needed at least a four dice spell get the eaten by Khorne event.

 Whirlwind wrote:

Oh and finally no ward / saving throws against these wounds to stop silly high elf banner issues.


In 9th age miscast wounds could not be saved by the miscasting wizard by any means. Other models save as normal.
LiveWaaaaagh wrote:
I think the ideas are good!

I like magic in 8th. It's definitely powerful, but so is a miscast and you need sometimes a spell in case of massive OP hordes, and such.

I feel the moment hordes entered play, you needed something to combat them, and some of those powerful spells are it. Bring hordes at yor own peril, because the opponent could purple sun you to death.


I agree this is why I don't agree with toning down any of the spells, just making the most powerful single use only. Yes you can Purple Sun/Dwellers Below/Foot of Gork, but you get to do so once and once only. Choose your target and timing wisely. This is still a dire threat to a horde unit.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

The entire point of 6th was to tone things down, and the Magic Phase was an extension of that. Magic should be the salt on the mashed potatoes of the game, not the potatoes itself. Even with the two spells you mention that you view as OP, they weren't nearly as bad as what came later. In typical GW fashion, they do a pendulum instead of meeting at the high point. That, and neither spell was an issue for me. Green Fire? You average 25% casualties from that spell IF you roll statistically. Flames of the Phoenix? Scroll. Done.


And yes, the spells from 8th are PRECISELY why I said they should have been saved for an Apocalypse level WFB setting instead of normal 2,000 points or less games.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Just Tony wrote:
The entire point of 6th was to tone things down, and the Magic Phase was an extension of that. Magic should be the salt on the mashed potatoes of the game, not the potatoes itself.


Magic is a core element of fantasy, not an add on.

 Just Tony wrote:

Even with the two spells you mention that you view as OP, they weren't nearly as bad as what came later. In typical GW fashion, they do a pendulum instead of meeting at the high point.


Actually 6th core spells are mostly very weak.

 Just Tony wrote:

That, and neither spell was an issue for me. Green Fire? You average 25% casualties from that spell IF you roll statistically. Flames of the Phoenix? Scroll. Done.


Greenfire needs the right target, Swordmasters rather than spearelves for instance, in fact anything with great weapons. It was FAQed to indicate the caster chooses the weapons used.

Any spell is scroll-done, unless Irresistable forced. That is not an answer. Flames of the Phoenix was nasty because it got nastier, generally you could survive the S3 fire, S4 fire was a lot worse so the victim would normally dispel that. This has the double effect of taking from the power dice and releasing the spell for recast. In 6th I would always seek to get that spell as it would dominate play in both magic phases turn after turn, not good when already facing High Elves and what else they could do.

 Just Tony wrote:

And yes, the spells from 8th are PRECISELY why I said they should have been saved for an Apocalypse level WFB setting instead of normal 2,000 points or less games.


Problem is you need to work out a ban list. Better to allow the spells but place a restriction against overuse. That is what this house rule achieves.

Also, what is OP? Are certain units OP, are certain special rules OP, characters etc. When you look at it the game is a cycle of broken elements, we should not be alarmed with this, its true of any wargaming including and perhaps especially historical. Preventing spamming of a broken option is better than removing it. House rules to limit numbers of overpowered or underpriced units work, saying no you cant take that model doesn't. Likewise keep the nasty spells but limit their usage in a fair and balanced way, which this is because the lost spell is replaced by another, which is a naturally occuring in game solution of itself. i.e. It takes a wizard from one normally occurring position, having spell #1 and spell #6, to another normally occurring position, having spell #1 and spell #2.

As for actual apocalypse games, Storm of Magic doesnt take itself seriously. The spells are too blatantly overpowered and the random tables too shockingly game changing to do that. Add to that with a vast array of summonable monsters, some costing upwards of 500pts alone, magic items costing up to 200pts, special terrain with even odder effects and other sundries and you have offshoot games of warhammer which are a case of bring your entire collection and have a blast slugging it out amongst world ending action complete with randomised megadeaths.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

I replied to this thread offering my input on how to manage magic, and did so. I neglected to take a few things into consideration.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
The entire point of 6th was to tone things down, and the Magic Phase was an extension of that. Magic should be the salt on the mashed potatoes of the game, not the potatoes itself.


Magic is a core element of fantasy, not an add on.


THIS is where we differ, and it was a bad assumption on my part to think that you were looking at figuring out how to use some magic in a soldiers game, not how to use some soldiers in a magic game. Once you have spells and magic as a core tenet of the game, why bother having troops at all? Just nothing but wizards and Purple Sun all night long. No different. It'd be like taking artillery, a core element of modern warfare and 40K, and slapping an Earthshaker cannon in every Guard squad. Wizards are a VERY rare thing, and while magic IS part of the game, and I would never want it otherwise, it should NEVER be a dominant part of the main game. At least in my view. I did NOT take your view into consideration, which probably would have had me simply avoid the thread completely.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

Even with the two spells you mention that you view as OP, they weren't nearly as bad as what came later. In typical GW fashion, they do a pendulum instead of meeting at the high point.


Actually 6th core spells are mostly very weak.


Here's the OTHER thing I forgot to take into consideration. We've discussed on several occasions your distaste for 6th, and your adoration of 8th. I should have either asked if this was solely how to make 8th magic tenable or if you wanted actual fixes.

The magic in 8th was one of the many factors that had me walk away from the game, and almost had me walk away from tabletop gaming as a whole. I guess I shouldn't assume everyone has that same mindset. Live and learn.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

That, and neither spell was an issue for me. Green Fire? You average 25% casualties from that spell IF you roll statistically. Flames of the Phoenix? Scroll. Done.


Greenfire needs the right target, Swordmasters rather than spearelves for instance, in fact anything with great weapons. It was FAQed to indicate the caster chooses the weapons used.

Any spell is scroll-done, unless Irresistable forced. That is not an answer. Flames of the Phoenix was nasty because it got nastier, generally you could survive the S3 fire, S4 fire was a lot worse so the victim would normally dispel that. This has the double effect of taking from the power dice and releasing the spell for recast. In 6th I would always seek to get that spell as it would dominate play in both magic phases turn after turn, not good when already facing High Elves and what else they could do.


The rest of the High magic list was underwhelming, and since you knew what spells the opponent had, you could easily save your dice to stop it. It really wasn't that hard to mitigate magic, it just took a certain amount of acceptable loss when you looked at what was being flung your way. Granted, if you wound up facing off against the High Elf Seer Council, you would be hard pressed to stop anything that the HE player wasn't willing to let you stop. That was also an extreme build, and that many mages made the army as a whole easier to deal with. Now if you had that build with 8th Ed. magic? Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

EVERYTHING that could be spammed in 6th was mitigatable, if you were willing to do it. I ran mostly Core units with the best armor save I could muster, and really didn't have to worry about a unit getting swept with a spell. The worst I got from a one spell source as far as damage went was 19 hits from Conflagration of Doom, but I don't judge the entirety of the magic system off that one outlier.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

And yes, the spells from 8th are PRECISELY why I said they should have been saved for an Apocalypse level WFB setting instead of normal 2,000 points or less games.


Problem is you need to work out a ban list. Better to allow the spells but place a restriction against overuse. That is what this house rule achieves.

Also, what is OP? Are certain units OP, are certain special rules OP, characters etc. When you look at it the game is a cycle of broken elements, we should not be alarmed with this, its true of any wargaming including and perhaps especially historical. Preventing spamming of a broken option is better than removing it. House rules to limit numbers of overpowered or underpriced units work, saying no you cant take that model doesn't. Likewise keep the nasty spells but limit their usage in a fair and balanced way, which this is because the lost spell is replaced by another, which is a naturally occuring in game solution of itself. i.e. It takes a wizard from one normally occurring position, having spell #1 and spell #6, to another normally occurring position, having spell #1 and spell #2.

As for actual apocalypse games, Storm of Magic doesnt take itself seriously. The spells are too blatantly overpowered and the random tables too shockingly game changing to do that. Add to that with a vast array of summonable monsters, some costing upwards of 500pts alone, magic items costing up to 200pts, special terrain with even odder effects and other sundries and you have offshoot games of warhammer which are a case of bring your entire collection and have a blast slugging it out amongst world ending action complete with randomised megadeaths.


I guess I wasn't considering SOM as an Apocalypse level game. I'm thinking the 40K supplement Apocalypse. You know, 15,000 point armies. THAT sort of thing. THAT is the only sort of gave I could see that level of magic scaling towards, THAT is what I was talking about.


All in all, though, if your gaming group is willing to try to house rule 8th into manageability, then that's that. Nothing more I can add on the topic, since I have nothing positive to add to any 8th Ed. discussion.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nothing more I can add on the topic, since I have nothing positive to add to any 8th Ed. discussion.


We've noticed.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

 Just Tony wrote:
I replied to this thread offering my input on how to manage magic, and did so. I neglected to take a few things into consideration.

 Orlanth wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
The entire point of 6th was to tone things down, and the Magic Phase was an extension of that. Magic should be the salt on the mashed potatoes of the game, not the potatoes itself.


Magic is a core element of fantasy, not an add on.


THIS is where we differ, and it was a bad assumption on my part to think that you were looking at figuring out how to use some magic in a soldiers game, not how to use some soldiers in a magic game. Once you have spells and magic as a core tenet of the game, why bother having troops at all? Just nothing but wizards and Purple Sun all night long. No different. It'd be like taking artillery, a core element of modern warfare and 40K, and slapping an Earthshaker cannon in every Guard squad. Wizards are a VERY rare thing, and while magic IS part of the game, and I would never want it otherwise, it should NEVER be a dominant part of the main game. At least in my view. I did NOT take your view into consideration, which probably would have had me simply avoid the thread completely.


Actually its more to do with making magic a potent component but not everything. A bit like air power in a soldiers game.

Also the game needs to be balanced along those line. Wizardry is very rare in a dwarf army, but not non existent due to runes. However in a Tzeentch cult it would be a central component. Most factions armies habitually include at least one wizard and some armies utterly rely on them. Magic is not a very rare thing in Warhammer at all, never has been.


 Just Tony wrote:

Here's the OTHER thing I forgot to take into consideration. We've discussed on several occasions your distaste for 6th, and your adoration of 8th. I should have either asked if this was solely how to make 8th magic tenable or if you wanted actual fixes.

The magic in 8th was one of the many factors that had me walk away from the game, and almost had me walk away from tabletop gaming as a whole. I guess I shouldn't assume everyone has that same mindset. Live and learn.


So your point is that because its based on 8th it cant be fixed?

 Just Tony wrote:

I guess I wasn't considering SOM as an Apocalypse level game. I'm thinking the 40K supplement Apocalypse. You know, 15,000 point armies. THAT sort of thing. THAT is the only sort of gave I could see that level of magic scaling towards, THAT is what I was talking about.


40K Apocalypse is about playing large games of 40K with the major units of the genre like titans being thrown in. Titans are very much killable, lascannon work wonders on them. You may get a Titan in a 15,000pt list but if you do its because you want to use it. They look like win buttons but are not. Play is resolved normally and if the game becomes a parking lot its normally down to convenience. maving 400+ guardsmen gets tiring quickly.

Storm of Magic is an actual apocalypse, you have terrain tiles rotating or swapping, 200pts magic swords (Ghal Maraz is costed at 130pts), spells with a casting value of 25 that do horrible things etc etc. It is intentionally broken. Storm of Magic is for things like The Sundering or the End Times and units are a sideshow, and are brought along to be swallowed up by the ground eaten by a huge dragon or get turned to trees then set on fire, with ice magic.
Normal course of play is not intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 04:52:13


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Commanding Lordling





A note on 8th magic:

I played my friend with the typical High Elves v. Skaven, I was Skaven, in a 1k point game. My friend got Fiery Convocation and killed 16/30 clanrats in one turn (to which all I could do was go, well that’s Warhammer bi—). After I dispelled it he got cocky and threw a crap ton of dice, miscast, took out his unit (elites) and his archmage fled the rest of the game(to which he said, well that’s Warhammer bi—)

While that was all a chance of die rolls, it semi equaled out. We had some laughs and a fun story to tell to our group. (And the phrase “that’s Warhammer bi—“ echos through every game we play now)
   
Made in de
Charging Orc Boar Boy





Germany

What has troubled me all along the editions was that you had to roll for the spells. Some spells were very powerful, others utterly useless. Some lores had a wider selection of passable spells, While when choosing others, you had to rely on good luck to get the spells you hoped for. This was an argument for not even selecting the lores where you had to be afraid to be left with a nonexisting magic phase.

8th did something good here with introducing the basic spell which was all over quite useful (well, to some extent, I never found a decent way to use the Little Waagh Basic Spell in most battles), if you rolled for the wrong spells.

Still, as in 8th you were not allowed to have any spell twice in the army except for the basic spell (did they ever think about how this scales up?) and the fact that you were getting a bonus on spellcasting based on the magic level, this often lead to army lists containing a level 4 mage as an almost mandatory selection. This does not feel like a good idea to me. I would rather let the better mage roll more dice for a spell than a small one.

So, an improved system for 8th edition would give me free choice in picking spells, and the spells should have a price tag on it.
For example (absolutely NOT thought to the end here ) Amount of spells picked = spellcaster level, multiplied with 10,20,25 points, depending on the strength of the spell chosen. All this added to the basic point costs of a Wizard model for small points to reflect its terrible stats in the game.

Irresistible Force = System of 9th age sounds good. The more dice used, the bigger the implications.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 16:10:56


 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, my favorite HQ iin 8th was the high elf Loremaster. Was a level 2 wizard who got all the signiture spells. Only those, and only for the core lores, but eight easy cast spells were awesome to have. Made a great back up caster, and super useful affordable lord for small games.

For 8th, I've noticed fewer bad spells. Some rather situational ones, but none that were really bad. The 6th spells tended to be the problem ones, but they tended to only be problems for certain armies. Back Sun was bad for dwarves and Ogres, but Chaos and Elves laughed at it. Elves hated dwellers from below, but ogres didn't care as much. That said, they did feel too easy to cast at times. I found I tended to stay away from them for more casual games. No black sun for my Ogre friend, at least not at first (once we realized it was a problem), though that changed after he started getting 'advice' from another friend. However, the local dwarf player, and his lizardman buddy who would field 40 dwarf hordes all in heavy armor got it almost every match. They had more than a bit of That Guy though.
   
 
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