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Hi all, I've read a few people comment about the "Will of Iron" comic (the one starring Dark Angels and Iron Warriors), especially the scene where



Some say it's because the gene-seed got diluted after 10,000 years of use, but I don't know enough about the making of a Marine to confirm.

So, are 30k Astartes bigger and tougher than recent Astartes, barring Primaris ?

No.

As Crimson said, probably not.

There isn't much to imply that the old ways are better. Yes, geneseed gets corrupted over time, with some sources of genetic material being more stable than others (Ultramarines being more stable than Space Wolves), but Guilliman also codified and established recruiting and implanting procedures that were spread amongst the loyalists to ensure for more successful Astartes development. Guilliman was probably the best authority on the matter, given that his Legion was the largest, and had the fastest recruitment rate of all Legions.

While there can definitely be a case that the 30k Legionnaires had better equipment, supply systems and resources, 40k Astartes are better trained, more consistently regulated and developed, and imperfections screened more intensely.

While 30k had plenty of great warriors (Abaddon, Corswain, Sevatar, Lucius), the sample sizes were much larger, and most likely drawn from better initial stock. 40k Astartes have limited recruiting stock in the first place, and the general quality of life in the Imperium is worse than Great Crusade Imperium. These could all affect the initiates, instead of the genetic enhancements.

Regardless, I think that the Will of Iron incident wasn't a case of "30k > 40k", I think it was a case of "strong character+plot armour+cool visuals > other character".

Generally speaking the 40k marines are better individual warriors while the 30k marines are better individually eqquiped. The gene seed degregation is the one thing that makes the 40k marine lose out and that’s very inconsistent. Most of the guys that survived from 30k untill now has some warp shenanigans going on with them and therefore are extra powerfull in various ways.

Yes
It was even stated in codex that they are a shadow of their past. But it was long ago, so they my have retconned / forgot about that

 Aaranis wrote:
Hi all, I've read a few people comment about the "Will of Iron" comic (the one starring Dark Angels and Iron Warriors), especially the scene where

Spoiler:

the Fallen kills a few marines bare-handed, ripping their arms off easily and such."

Some say it's because the gene-seed got diluted after 10,000 years of use, but I don't know enough about the making of a Marine to confirm.

So, are 30k Astartes bigger and tougher than recent Astartes, barring Primaris ?

Will of Iron is a godawful comic and I wouldn't take anything in it seriously. They can't even get the heraldry right on the dark angels, and the artist doesn't seem to have any understanding of 40k in general. In the Deathwatch comic also done by the same team, a Space Wolf termiantor is somehow killed by a bunch of spears and swords ripping him to pieces, clean through terminator armor, despite lacking any sort of power field.

Strength is one thing. Skill and raw experience, quite another.

Consider movie sword fights. With the notable exception of Equilibrium’s final scenes, none of them portray it accurately. If I’m better with a blade, your dead in seconds. I can read your body language, spot the bunching of your muscles, and get my own blade where you won’t expect it.

Doesn’t matter how well you’ve trained, because that’s all theory. If someone has survived, say 10 swordfights, and you’re a highly trained Ninja Assassin with The Blade Of The Gods? I know who I’m backing. Hint. It’s not you.

So Astartes from the Heresy? They’re simply better experienced at fratricide that you. Hell. Your ‘average joe’ Astartes in the modern day has likely never fought another Astartes. And there, their training falls down. No Loyalsift would teach an Astartes how to knack their mates in short order.

Sure. Fiction will exaggerate. That’s what it’s for. The whole unarmed limb removal is artistic license. But it’s not that far from the turn of experience x training vs mere training.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Strength is one thing. Skill and raw experience, quite another.

Consider movie sword fights. With the notable exception of Equilibrium’s final scenes, none of them portray it accurately. If I’m better with a blade, your dead in seconds. I can read your body language, spot the bunching of your muscles, and get my own blade where you won’t expect it.

Doesn’t matter how well you’ve trained, because that’s all theory. If someone has survived, say 10 swordfights, and you’re a highly trained Ninja Assassin with The Blade Of The Gods? I know who I’m backing. Hint. It’s not you.

So Astartes from the Heresy? They’re simply better experienced at fratricide that you. Hell. Your ‘average joe’ Astartes in the modern day has likely never fought another Astartes. And there, their training falls down. No Loyalsift would teach an Astartes how to knack their mates in short order.

Sure. Fiction will exaggerate. That’s what it’s for. The whole unarmed limb removal is artistic license. But it’s not that far from the turn of experience x training vs mere training.

Except astartes train in sparring against each other all the time, and one of the most common enemies loyalists face is chaos space marines.

Crappy real world example? I do LARP. And on the field, I’m quite tanky. Massive shield, heaviest armour in the system.

Yet because whilst my character might snuff, I don’t. So my next character benefits from my own experience. When to block, when to parry, when to dodge, and indeed, the ‘how’ of all of those.

If it was real world fighting? Yep. I’d have been particularly unimpressive toast during my very first engagement.

Now, spin that through of the in-universe ‘unthinkable’? A scenario so grim and awful most Astartes can’t simply adopt their usual ‘well, we’ll just stab the organisational structure right in the brain’ approach. Many may be utterly unprepared. To fight a Brother is one thing, if they’re recent renegades. But to not only have to deal with renegade brothers actually being a thing (despite your own psycho indoctrination), but that they’ve got days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, milennia worth of experience in how to take you down?

Good luck. You’re gonna need it

 godardc wrote:
Yes
It was even stated in codex that they are a shadow of their past. But it was long ago, so they my have retconned / forgot about that

This.

Several chapters have lost parts of their gene-seed over time. With some of the features of SM's falling out of use. e.g. Imperial Fist descendants have completely lost the use of their Betcher's gland over time. Also some chapters are made from a combination of multiple Legion's gene-seed, possibly to cover the deficiencies that have developed over time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except astartes train in sparring against each other all the time, and one of the most common enemies loyalists face is chaos space marines.

Not true.

CSM have an almost mythical status amongst Imperial armies. The Imperium would not want to let he cat out of the bag that Marines can fall to Chaos and suppress it at every opportunity. SM's equally are super rare. There are approx 1 million marines (plus Primaris) in the entire galaxy. That is a tiny blip. Don't kid yourself that SMs are common as muck, as they're anything but.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
and get my own blade where you won’t expect it.

Doesn’t matter how well you’ve trained, because that’s all theory. If someone has survived, say 10 swordfights, and you’re a highly trained Ninja Assassin with The Blade Of The Gods? I know who I’m backing. Hint. It’s not you.

.

If I'm a ninja you won't see me coming until you're dead. Ninja's don't play fair! but point taken


That said the answer is no. In fact 40k Astartes are bigger and stronger then 30k Astartes, Primaris Marines.

Big and strong doesn’t matter a damn against a skilled, cunning and experienced opponent.

Never has, never will.

One can clad oneself in the very best armour, but there’s always a weakness.

Not only are Chaos Marines veterans of the Heresy (at least some are), they’re Veterans of it because they survived it. Whether they’d trained for it, or just had a knack for it, they survived the most apocalyptic battles of that era, and are still kicking about.

Training vs Experience. It’s barelt a contest.

Now, exactly how that’s portrayed in the background irks me, but that’s a whole different thread!

I don't think 40K Space Marines are significantly weaker then their 30Kcounterpart. While it's true that geneseed has degraded to a certain degree leading some loyalist Space Marines to lose the capacity to use certain organs like the Betcher Glands for the Imperial Fist, they remain pretty much identical in terms of size, speed and strength. Chaos Space Marines also suffer from the same problems, most of them probably aren't survivors of the Horus Heresy. Many of them are traitors or simply new recruits for various warbands to replace casualty. The big difference between loyalist and Chaos Space Marines is that the later have access to daemonic patronage to gain new powers, they probably have slightly worse gear and they are more likely to be individual fighters instead of proper soldiers. They aren't working as well as a team on the battlefield due to rivalry, insanity, etc. then the ultra-disciplined and close-bounded Chapters. In a war, the individual physical prowess of a soldier aren't nearly as important as their moral and their capacity to work as a group to achieve an objective. Plus, the experience of the Chaos Space Marines is sometime over-stated. Many of those who have lived millenias are now completly insane making their experience moot, while others have seen barely a century or two since the Horus Heresy while many 40K Space Marines are much older and more experimented then them.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Yes
It was even stated in codex that they are a shadow of their past. But it was long ago, so they my have retconned / forgot about that

This.

Several chapters have lost parts of their gene-seed over time. With some of the features of SM's falling out of use. e.g. Imperial Fist descendants have completely lost the use of their Betcher's gland over time. Also some chapters are made from a combination of multiple Legion's gene-seed, possibly to cover the deficiencies that have developed over time.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Except astartes train in sparring against each other all the time, and one of the most common enemies loyalists face is chaos space marines.

Not true.

CSM have an almost mythical status amongst Imperial armies. The Imperium would not want to let he cat out of the bag that Marines can fall to Chaos and suppress it at every opportunity. SM's equally are super rare. There are approx 1 million marines (plus Primaris) in the entire galaxy. That is a tiny blip. Don't kid yourself that SMs are common as muck, as they're anything but.

And what does any of that having to do with loyalist astartes commonly squaring off against heretic and renegade warbands? Chaos Space Marines may be mythical to a guardsmen, but to the Chapters it's just Tuesday of the various threats-of-the-week.

Dark Imperium and most of the material released post 8th have made it clear that knowledge of CSM has become increasingly common even among the civilian population, let alone the IG. When there is a warp rift cutting the galaxy in half, it's probably impossible to deny what they are anymore.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Chaos Space Marines may be mythical to a guardsmen, but to the Chapters it's just Tuesday of the various threats-of-the-week.

Then again, that might be true for some Guardsmen, but if you are a Cadian or really any guardsmen living around the Eye of Terror or other Chaos stronghold, Chaos Space Marines are basically amongst your common enemies. Cadians probably fought Chaos Marines more often than Eldars, Orks or Necrons. They have seen daemons more often than Tyranids.

warfare in 30K is also a lot more different than it is in 40K. The Legion's fought with massive numbers fielded. Often times, similarly outnumbered by the enemy as their 40K brethren, but an Astartes in power armor, wielding the full arsenal of the Legion, with elements of the Army, Navy, and the Mechanicum is a force amplifier. They brought countless worlds to compliance through blundering brute force. Tactics and strategies were wielded in broad strokes, details of the battlefield left up to the leadership on the ground. Because to do otherwise would be impeding the speed, time, and resources of the Expedition.

An Astartes of 40K could not afford to fight the way the Legion's did. They'd have to make sure their strategies and tactics are force amplifiers unto themselves, often times without the help of friendly elements. They can't afford to lose brothers or resources as easily as the Legion did. This means that putting themselves at the front of an enemy attack would be a poor decision at best, and that their strength would have more impact hitting the enemies soft points rather than the hard points. As such, the Astartes of 40K would have a much broader base of knowledge on warfare than those of 30K, utilizing a much wider array of tactics, strategies, equipment, and more thorough analysis of enemy, local intel and culture than that of the Legions.

I would say pound for pound, 40K Astartes are superior, rather than inferior to their 30K counterparts. Of course, if we're talking tonnage, its always better to have more, rather than less. A 40K Astartes force would be a baby with a stick off a tree compared to a Legion. But going off of THAT thought...a hundred babies would eat a man alive.

Now THAT is a very cute thought

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Big and strong doesn’t matter a damn against a skilled, cunning and experienced opponent.

Never has, never will.

One can clad oneself in the very best armour, but there’s always a weakness.

Not only are Chaos Marines veterans of the Heresy (at least some are), they’re Veterans of it because they survived it. Whether they’d trained for it, or just had a knack for it, they survived the most apocalyptic battles of that era, and are still kicking about.

Training vs Experience. It’s barelt a contest.

Now, exactly how that’s portrayed in the background irks me, but that’s a whole different thread!

except experiance ISN'T the ONLY matter, size, experiance can give you a big edge, but so can superior size, speed, equipment etc. I don't care how experianced you are, if you're going up a guy whose twice your size, moves twice as fast as you, has a automatic weapon and a suit of power armor, and you've got a loin cloth and a stone dagger, it's going to be an uphill battle to win.equipment,m experiance, physical characteriistics ALL play a role in detirmining who has "the edge" and experiance against one foe might not help you much agaisnt another, just because I've won a hundred boxing matches against an Imperial guardsmen, does not mean much if I'm fighting a Genestealer.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
warfare in 30K is also a lot more different than it is in 40K. The Legion's fought with massive numbers fielded. Often times, similarly outnumbered by the enemy as their 40K brethren, but an Astartes in power armor, wielding the full arsenal of the Legion, with elements of the Army, Navy, and the Mechanicum is a force amplifier. They brought countless worlds to compliance through blundering brute force. Tactics and strategies were wielded in broad strokes, details of the battlefield left up to the leadership on the ground. Because to do otherwise would be impeding the speed, time, and resources of the Expedition.

An Astartes of 40K could not afford to fight the way the Legion's did. They'd have to make sure their strategies and tactics are force amplifiers unto themselves, often times without the help of friendly elements. They can't afford to lose brothers or resources as easily as the Legion did. This means that putting themselves at the front of an enemy attack would be a poor decision at best, and that their strength would have more impact hitting the enemies soft points rather than the hard points. As such, the Astartes of 40K would have a much broader base of knowledge on warfare than those of 30K, utilizing a much wider array of tactics, strategies, equipment, and more thorough analysis of enemy, local intel and culture than that of the Legions.

I would say pound for pound, 40K Astartes are superior, rather than inferior to their 30K counterparts. Of course, if we're talking tonnage, its always better to have more, rather than less. A 40K Astartes force would be a baby with a stick off a tree compared to a Legion. But going off of THAT thought...a hundred babies would eat a man alive.

Now THAT is a very cute thought

This pretty much. Another thing to note is the sheer age disparity between modern Chapter brothers and Legionaires. Legionaires were fodder. While the great figures of the Legions were typically around 200 years old (the duration of the great crusade), the method of warfare fought by the Legions resulted in a ridiculous turnover rate amongst legionaires. Their average age could be simple decades from the rather crude legion perspective on astartes warfare. Which was to take your highly valuable heavy infantry, and just throw it at the enemy in a frontal assault with flanking attacks (sometimes) against enemies completely inferior to those modern chapters face, yet taking severe losses in the process (probably because of said frontal assaults). Remember, Legions are legitimately insane enough to just have entire companies of marines charging across open ground on the battlefield while god damn Titans are stomping around - which of course just casually vaporize a company's worth of marines in a single plasma explosion in the Dropsite Massacre.

Chapters meanwhile frequently see their veterans reaching the triple digits in age, including multiple centuries before they die of rocket-to-the-face syndrome, but most chapters also avoid just blind frontal assaults because it'd be suicide. Instead they pick the enemy apart swiftly and brutally by maximizing the use of their orbital/air superiority to ensure that the only fights they fight are the ones they can win. So while a Legion would obviously kick the arse of a single chapter, a legion's worth of chapters would probably kick a legion's arse on account of superior structure and mobility. And of course experience.

As for Chaos, most Chaos Space Marines are actually very young recruits and not the original genestock. Those are VOTLW, which are very rare and obviously pretty powerful not just from experience, but because survival basically guarantees warp boons.

Depends on the Chapter/Legion/Genestock in question.
Space Wolves’ “Degredation” has emphasised some of their more bestial traits, their ability to spit/bite with a poisonous gland has improved to the point where the poison will corrode skin, while their human gene-stock was getting bigger and stronger so the Space Wolves were actually getting better with time - that said their human gene stock was also dwindling in number and in the aftermath of Warzone Fenris was straight up ravaged, on top of that the curse of the Wulfen resulted in dead aspirants rather than servitors.

The Blood Angels are falling to the Black Rage more often but some of their successor chapters are actually doing pretty well. With the exception of the Smurfs the story tends to be improving gene-seed = dwindling numbers, improving numbers = degrading gene-seed.
Why? Because Grimdark.

 Wyzilla wrote:
While the great figures of the Legions were typically around 200 years old (the duration of the great crusade), the method of warfare fought by the Legions resulted in a ridiculous turnover rate amongst legionaires. Their average age could be simple decades from the rather crude legion perspective on astartes warfare. Which was to take your highly valuable heavy infantry, and just throw it at the enemy in a frontal assault with flanking attacks (sometimes) against enemies completely inferior to those modern chapters face, yet taking severe losses in the process (probably because of said frontal assaults)..

Uh. An average age of decades is absurdly good for line infantry that repeatedly and often engages in frontal assaults, let alone under the absurd big guns of 30k battlefields.
These aren't modern soldiers where a big war is a once-in-a-generation thing, or even peacekeeping deployments with punctuated violence. This is full frontal planetary warfare on a recurring and frequent basis. Surviving for decades in that environment is actually absurd, regardless of gene enhancements and special armor.

That turnover rate is ridiculously LOW for that method of warfare, and that's without even touching the psychological impact of that sort of unrelenting deployment and those brutal theatres.

I like the idea of looking at the difference between 40k and 30k-era Astartes as that the letter were used as super-powered grunts, while the former are deployed more like special forces (super-powered still, of course). That’s a nice way explaining how the traitors look on ‘modern’ Marines as effete for leaving the heavy lifting of set-piece battles to the Guard.

Alternatively, as Abaddon puts it (while murdering some unnamed Brother-Captain) “Humanity’s servants? We were their lords!”. Later Astartes aren’t less effective on the field; the traitors see them as weak for not having seized control of their own destiny as the traitors did.

 Lord Fishface wrote:
I like the idea of looking at the difference between 40k and 30k-era Astartes as that the letter were used as super-powered grunts, while the former are deployed more like special forces (super-powered still, of course).

That's exactly how they should be portrayed. An individual super grunt will most likely lose to an individual super-spec-ops soldier, but the grunts weren't deployed in squads (or half-squads). They're entirely different tools for a different time.

Definitely not.

There is no fluff to support this theory in any GW publication.

There has been geneseed degredation over the millennia, but this has only caused some secondary organs to be missing in a few chapters, and caused some mutations in other chapters.

They are of comparable strength and power to original crusade era marines.

The fallen in question may just be an exceptional marine, similar to the likes of Sigismund and kharn, or he may have been powered up by warp exposure. I also imagine the Will of Iron comic may not be considered cannon.

Rather it was the opposite. 40k Astartes have much more stringent selection procedures and training than their 30k counterparts. They are also likely to survive longer simply because they won't be thrown into the meatgrinder that was the Horus Heresy. An Astartes in 40k is a super elite and divine warrior. An Astartes in 30k was mass-produced cannon fodder.
The Imperium (and the Astartes) as a whole have regressed from being able to field entire armies of Astartes to just a few small groups that lack many of the advanced weapons that the Legions had, but an effect of this is that much more attention is spent on each individual Astartes, making them more formidable warriors on an individual level.

As to why a Fallen can rip through other Marines? Well, I guess they must have gotten quite a bit of experience during the 10,000 years they have been around. To stay alive for that long they must be quite exceptional individuals. Or they were imbued with the power of Chaos granting them extraordinary strength.

Just for clarity's sake, an Astartes of millennia 30,000 may be a super powered grunt, but on an individual basis, they could still give an Astartes of the 41st millennia a run for their money. the 30th millennium saw the Great Crusade coming to an end. The Eve before the Horus Heresy. The Imperium was at the height of its power, and the military might of the Astartes and the Imperium in general had waged war that saw them from one side of the galaxy to the other.

When people talk of history, they attribute Roman triumphs to a narrow skill set concerning the legion formations and tactics. They say the same thing about the Mongols, the Chinese Dynasties, and the medieval knights of Europe. People all too often seem to discount the idea that building an empire through military might will see the common soldier exposed to many cultures, knowledge, and techniques of fighting. They will influence others, and the others will influence them. In this way, knowledge is shared and "renaissance'd", in which an Empire produces the most capable warriors in the entire world. So yes, a Roman soldier, or a mongolian steppe warrior is the lesser without his whole, but to think that they are not extremely skilled when out of formation, or useless on foot with a saber, would be a terrible mistake.

Which brings me back to the 30k vs. the 40k Astartes. I would say the 40k Astartes is undoubtedly more knowledgable and skilled when it comes to warfare. But that doesn't mean the legions of 30k won't leave some nasty bruises if it comes down to a fight with equal assets. They are more than capable of doing so. Of course, one should never engage the enemy on agreeable terms, and I imagine an Astartes that gives his enemy his fair due and takes these things into account is one that is far more likely to be successful than one who doesn't.

robbienw wrote:
Definitely not.

There is no fluff to support this theory in any GW publication.

Ascension of Balthazar does, the fact that the fallen is so much larger than the current Dark Angels is clearly stated. 30k does seem to have more "huge" individuals though, Abbadon, Polux etc.

 JamesY wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Definitely not.

There is no fluff to support this theory in any GW publication.

Ascension of Balthazar does, the fact that the fallen is so much larger than the current Dark Angels is clearly stated. 30k does seem to have more "huge" individuals though, Abbadon, Polux etc.

It could be argued that they have more "huge" individuals because Astartes are more numerous. We have several really big marines in 40k as well (Asterion Moloc from the Minotaurs, Pasanius from the Ultramarines, etc).

 JamesY wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Definitely not.

There is no fluff to support this theory in any GW publication.

Ascension of Balthazar does, the fact that the fallen is so much larger than the current Dark Angels is clearly stated. 30k does seem to have more "huge" individuals though, Abbadon, Polux etc.

That does not prove anything. The fallen may have been an exceptionally large marine like pollux, or may have been swollen by warp power. 40k has plenty of freakishly huge normal marines as well, such as Sol Baken and tu’shan of the Salamanders, Pasanius of the Ultramarines, Silas Alberec of the Excorsists, Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs, etc

robbienw wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

robbienw wrote:
Definitely not.

There is no fluff to support this theory in any GW publication.

Ascension of Balthazar does, the fact that the fallen is so much larger than the current Dark Angels is clearly stated. 30k does seem to have more "huge" individuals though, Abbadon, Polux etc.

That does not prove anything. The fallen may have been an exceptionally large marine like pollux, or may have been swollen by warp power. 40k has plenty of freakishly huge normal marines as well, such as Sol Baken and tu’shan of the Salamanders, Pasanius of the Ultramarines, Silas Alberec of the Excorsists, Asterion Moloc of the Minotaurs, etc

You said there is no fluff to support the topic notion. Ascension of Balthazar does heavily imply that marines generally were bigger in 30k. My comment already acknowledged that that individual may have been an exceptionally large one (but not due to the warp.)