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In the same vein as Eldar Shuriken weapons that get AP-3 on a 6 to wound, or Necron weapons that have 1 better AP than their equivalents, I think Bolter weapons need something extra to help make Marines get more "punch"

With the explosive rounds of the Bolter, I feel a rule that activated on a 6 to would (similar to Eldar) should give them some kind of bonus.
But unlike Eldar and Necrons, I think it should be damage, rather than AP that gets modified.

However, I don't think increasing the Damage Characteristic of the gun would be the right choice, but rather the number of wounds caused
So a Bolter that rolls a 6 to wound, would cause 2 wounds, thus 2 saves that each cause 1 Damage.
This should scale well against both Hordes and Multi-wound models, and doesn't flood the game with yet more D2 weapons.

Thoughts?

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Interesting concept, I like the idea of 1+1 damage on a 6 rather than a flat 2D. Helps them thin hordes without completely without invalidating Vanguard vets guns niche of a flat 2D.

At first I was going to suggest D2, but then I remembered how problematic that can be for units like Terminators, that are currently not great. I want to HELP Marine units, not compound the problem.
6s to wound generating 2 separate wounds/saves scales better and helps with Hordes, which is a major issue for Marines.
It also better represents an exploding round doing more casualties

It's a small change, but could be noticeable en masse

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So kinda like Tesla except worse, so Tesla still keeps itself unique. I like that.

My original suggestion was forcing rerolls of successful saves. This would be unique, gives Bolters more bite against horde, and surprisingly helps a little against more Elite dudes. It also makes the Lt. better for buffing rank and file.

Not everyone was a fan of this idea though.

So how are you going to compensate weapons that should be better than Boltguns? Or "screw you, you're not marines" like normal?

Because reroll saves is actually *really* strong.

Tesla is a good comparison, yes.
I wanted something that not only represented the Explosive Round (which is what I'll call this rule from now on), but also helped even basic Marines do more damage to a unit, not just models in a unit.

6s to wound cause 2 wound instead of 1 seems a decent and easy add-on

Bharring wrote:
Because reroll saves is actually *really* strong.

I'm not suggesting that, Slayer-Fan was and was commenting about my change

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Bharring wrote:
So how are you going to compensate weapons that should be better than Boltguns? Or "screw you, you're not marines" like normal?

Because reroll saves is actually *really* strong.

It really isn't stronger (and actually weaker) than actually negating saves like the Shuriken proc or most gauss weapons. If anything it just gives them an edge against Daemons.

Also it would likely be a "screw you" because they're 13 point models. The low amount of shooting needs to be compensated by better quality, even though it would only be a proc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Tesla is a good comparison, yes.
I wanted something that not only represented the Explosive Round (which is what I'll call this rule from now on), but also helped even basic Marines do more damage to a unit, not just models in a unit.

6s to wound cause 2 wound instead of 1 seems a decent and easy add-on

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A better way to word yours might be "To roll wounds of 6+ force a target to take two total saves against this weapon" or something. I'm not good at wordsmithing.

Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-1 for all targets better than a 6+. And it's the same on a 6+.

Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-3 in most cases, especially if an invuln is involved.

The problem with saying it's ok to screw over other units because it's a 13ppm unit, is that many of the units you're screwing over are in the same ballpark - DAs and Necron Warriors are both 12ppm units. Both of which rely on having a better gun than a Boltgun, and pay for it.

I don't honestly think this is enough of a buff for me to take it. Yes, it's nice, but it only procs on 6s, and they still get the armour save.

Is this buff nice for bolt guns on IG/SoB? Yeah, It'd make me wanna take it on IG sergeants more.

Does it make me want to take marines with bolt guns? Not really. Now, given there may be a bit of a bias here as I ain't a big fan of things that procs on 6.

Bharring wrote:
Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-1 for all targets better than a 6+. And it's the same on a 6+.

Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-3 in most cases, especially if an invuln is involved.

The problem with saying it's ok to screw over other units because it's a 13ppm unit, is that many of the units you're screwing over are in the same ballpark - DAs and Necron Warriors are both 12ppm units. Both of which rely on having a better gun than a Boltgun, and pay for it.

All of these models are awful.

 Galef wrote:
In the same vein as Eldar Shuriken weapons that get AP-3 on a 6 to wound, or Necron weapons that have 1 better AP than their equivalents, I think Bolter weapons need something extra to help make Marines get more "punch"

With the explosive rounds of the Bolter, I feel a rule that activated on a 6 to would (similar to Eldar) should give them some kind of bonus.
But unlike Eldar and Necrons, I think it should be damage, rather than AP that gets modified.

However, I don't think increasing the Damage Characteristic of the gun would be the right choice, but rather the number of wounds caused
So a Bolter that rolls a 6 to wound, would cause 2 wounds, thus 2 saves that each cause 1 Damage.
This should scale well against both Hordes and Multi-wound models, and doesn't flood the game with yet more D2 weapons.

Thoughts?

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I like it, its simple, somewhat accurately represents the fluff and is similar to other rules (exploding 6's) that its not too hard to get the hang of.

Would this apply to Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters and other bolt weapons as well? Certainly a boon to many Imperial factions if so.

I think exploding 6's is the most fair buff.

 Kcalehc wrote:

I like it, its simple, somewhat accurately represents the fluff and is similar to other rules (exploding 6's) that its not too hard to get the hang of.

Would this apply to Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters, Heavy Bolters and other bolt weapons as well? Certainly a boon to many Imperial factions if so.

Yes, all Bolter weapons. And at no additional cost. Just add the rule. And maybe we make it full on Tesla, but for the To-Wound instead of To-Hit
And I'd word it as such:

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes 2 additional wounds. This will mean 3 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1"

As mentioned, you still get your regular save (or Ap-1 for HBs and Bolt Rifles) so this really just helps add more dice for the opponent to roll and lose models

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I'll chime in, and say that exploding 6's make sense, and is both a bit weaker than rerolling saves (which is good, rerolling save is a bit too much, being better than ap-1 or anything other than Sv2+) and it's also pretty funny because you could take chaos chosen with combi-bolter and use VoTLW to make wannabe tesla immortals for chaos.

Rerolling saves vs 6s is too good.

2 independently-saved wounds caused by 6s is strictly better than rerolling saves. By a lot.

3 independenlty-saved wounds caused by 6s is absurd.

What? Explain.

"Exploding Round: Each roll to wound of 6 with this weapon causes 2 additional wounds. This will mean 3 separate wounds need to be saved against, rather than 1"

Save : Reroll Saves : 3 Wounds
7+ : 1 : 3
6+ : 35/36 : 90/36
5+ : 8/9 : 2
4+ : 3/4 : 1.5
3+ : 4/9 : 1
2+ : 11/36 : 1/2

In all cases, 3 independent wounds is strictly superior to reroll saves - and usually, by a lot.

So if rerolling saves is OP (and it is), how can 3x wounds be OK?

Bharring wrote:
Rerolling saves vs 6s is too good.

2 independently-saved wounds caused by 6s is strictly better than rerolling saves. By a lot.

3 independenlty-saved wounds caused by 6s is absurd.

What Martel said. Please explain.

Are you comparing this to the old Twin-Linked vs Twin weapons? I.e. 2 separate rolls being better than 1 reroll? Cuz that's the point

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The math is above. It's not even close.

Then why isn't Tesla considered OP? Is it just because you then have to roll to wound?
If so, lets knock it back down to just 2 total wounds per each roll of 6 as I originally proposed

It adds about 1 more total wound per 5 Marines, if that. Are you saying that 5 Tac Marines doing 1 more wound than they currently might do is OP? Because that's absurd

Or lets do 6 Stormbolters in RF range (6 Terminators).
That's 24 shots, 16 hits, against T4, that's only 8 wounds normal.
Less than 2 of those wound rolls should be 6, meaning only 1, maybe 2 more saves taken.

If we bump it to 3 wounds per each 6, that same unit does only does 10-12 wounds total on average, compare to 8 as now. Wounds that still get saves, so you can't even say it's a 20% increase in damage.
If a big complaint about Marines is that they don't do more damage, this is fair fix.

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Bharring wrote:
Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-1 for all targets better than a 6+. And it's the same on a 6+.

Rerolling saves on 6s is better than AP-3 in most cases, especially if an invuln is involved.

The problem with saying it's ok to screw over other units because it's a 13ppm unit, is that many of the units you're screwing over are in the same ballpark - DAs and Necron Warriors are both 12ppm units. Both of which rely on having a better gun than a Boltgun, and pay for it.

A consistent AP-1 is a lot better. Let us just assume 6 wounds for a moment against a 5+ unit (like Infantry), a straight AP-1 is 5 dudes dead. My proposal doesn't even let them reach an average of 5. Six wounds against MEQ kills 2.3 with Gauss. Once again the Bolter doesn't reach that average either. Basically the Bolter is still doing worse than a Gauss Flayer. Now you can argue it's better than the Ranger's Galvanic rifle, where you pay for the range and the fact Rangers are only 7 points.

TEQ would be trickier, where you land 1.5 wounds with Gauss compared to Bolters in this scenario only getting 1. Doesn't seem unreasonable does it?

Meanwhile you just straight up negate a save for most targets with Shurikens. Even the 6+ an MEQ would get vs that is still worse off than an MEQ rerolling his 3+ (which I think is equivalent of a 5+). A unit like Custodes getting a 2+/4++ is still doing worse with a 4++ than a rerolled 2+ (which is maybe a 3+ or slightly less).

I fail to see an issue.

2 wounds on 6s is 1 extra wound per 6 shots, or 1 extra wound per 3 Marines.

First, note that that's per shot, not per wound. So you're doubling your effectiveness vs T8. Or 50% increased effectiveness vs T5-7. Or 33% increased effectiveness vs T4. Only 25% increased effectiveness vs T3, though.

That's a big increase.

Rerolling the save and taking 2 saves are roughly equal, but taking 2 saves represents the damage of an exploding round better, because it could kill more than 1 model.
Marines sorely need more Horde control. Exploding 6s is the answer, even if it's just 2, not 3, wounds per 6

3 wounds might be excessive on a lucky (very lucky) roll, but 2 wounds is the bare minimum for this rule to work

Bharring wrote:
2 wounds on 6s is 1 extra wound per 6 shots, or 1 extra wound per 3 Marines

No it isn't. It's 1 extra wound per 6 WOUNDS. The Marines have to hit first. 3 Marines, with no hit-mods, only get 4 hits. Against T4, that will only be 2 Wounds.
You need 9 shots, which would be 6 hits, which is a perfect statiscial roll would be 1,2,3,4,5 & 6. Against T4, that would be 3 wounds + 1 bonus.

Since you need 5 Marines in RF range to get 9 shots (10, technically), I stand by my assertion that Exploding Rounds only gets 1 more wound per 5 Marines.

But I will concede that is should just be 2 total wounds instead of 3

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Shuriken on 6s does ignore 4+s or worse, provided there's not an Invuln. It's nice, sure. But the units that bring it in bulk pay for it. Guardians are Guardsmen at twice the price. Dire Avengers are GEQ-survivable units with MEQ prices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Rerolling the save and taking 2 saves are roughly equal"
They're maybe close at a 2+. Anything else, nowhere close:

Save : Reroll Saves : 2 Wounds
7+ : 1 : 2
6+ : 35/36 : 60/36
5+ : 8/9 : 4/3
4+ : 3/4 : 1
3+ : 4/9 : 2/3
2+ : 11/36 : 1/3

That's not what I'd call close.

This buff barely helps. I don't get why people think it's good.

You need around 14 marines to kill an extra guardsmen with this buff, without rerolls.

With rerolls (Chapter master + Lieutenant), you still need about 9. That's insane, and just to kill an extra guardsman?

I meant an extra shot on a "6" like orks. That's not even close to forcing rerolled saves.

Or give boltguns AP -1 vs 5+ or worse base armor.

Martel732 wrote:
I meant an extra shot on a "6" like orks. That's not even close to forcing rerolled saves.

Or give boltguns AP -1 vs 5+ or worse base armor.

I say just give the bolter ap - 1,but marines ignore an ap. It cancels out and help with damage

I feel like that isn't doing much against the best units in the game though; the cheap ones.

Hmm
Is it fair to say marines are out numberd 2:1 most times?
RF 2 bolters(no ap) are probably out of the question?

Or even assault 3?

I'm not keen on gimmicks on 6s

Assault 3 would probably best.