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Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

Lets say I have a list, 2 battalions... Chaos Marines and Chaos Demons.

CSM
Terminator Lord
Terminator Sorcerer

Troops
CSM x5
CSM x5
CSM x5

Heavy
Oblits
Oblits

Demons
DP
poxbringer
Scrivener

Troops
Plaguebearers x 10
Nurglings x3
nurglings x3


How do I bring the demons onto the board? Whats the most units I can set up for deepstrike/Summoning?

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Sazzlefrats wrote:
How do I bring the demons onto the board? Whats the most units I can set up for deepstrike/Summoning?
The Daemonic Ritual rule (Page 117 CSM Codex, Page 85 Daemons Codex, among others) explains how to summon daemons. You don't include summoned Daemons in a detachment. If you want to "Deep Strike" detachment Daemons, you have to spend command points to do so with their Stratagem. Whatever version of the Tactical Reserves rule details how and how many such units can be deployed outside the battlefield. If you want to summon Daemons in a Matched Play game, you must set aside Reinforcement Points, which is detailed in the Matched Play rules.

If you have a more specific question about an exact scenario, please ask as it can be a little tricky to deal with overly general issues.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/13 21:49:17


 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit, or just say “I have X points for summoning”, and summon them in based on the summoning rules found in the Daemon codex (character summoning can’t move, rolls certain amount of dice and summons Daemons based on power level). Of course you have to pay reserve points.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

"You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit" okay I think that answers my question. So turn two, I can have 3 units just pop onto board more than 9" away from an enemy model.

Right? (for matched play, competitive)
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Sazzlefrats wrote:
"You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit" okay I think that answers my question. So turn two, I can have 3 units just pop onto board more than 9" away from an enemy model.

Right? (for matched play, competitive)
Correct.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Sazzlefrats wrote:
"You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit" okay I think that answers my question. So turn two, I can have 3 units just pop onto board more than 9" away from an enemy model.

Right? (for matched play, competitive)


Yes, this is what you want to do. Forget about summoning. It's confusing, people get it wrong, and it's also terrible mechanically
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




If you want to guarantee you get your DPs into the game then use Deepstrike strat.

Mechanically, the way actual summoning works is like this. First you select a Chaos Character. This Character cannot move for the turn, have arrived from reserves, or been summoned themselves this turn. Select a Chaos alignment for your summon. If your Character is themselves aligned they can only summon units from their God.
Next, roll between 1 and 3 d6. Any doubles and the Character takes 1 Mortal Wound, tripples deal d3. The total rolled is your Summon Roll. Compair this roll to the Power Level of your chosen God alignment's units. Anything equal to or under your roll can be summoned. Place this unit within 12" of your Character and 9" away from enemy units. Treat the new unit as reinforcements.

If you were to summon Nurgle Aligned DP your Lord or Sorc would have to not move. Successfully roll an 8 on 3d6. Then place that DP within the range restrictions. This new DP cannot move itself. Any summoned DP would then get to choose its Psykic power then. If you rolled under an 8 you would get...plaugebearers maybe a spawn? Speaking of Plaugebearers, for the same roll of a DP (8) you can bring a 20 model unit of Plaugebearers. A roll of 12 would get you 30.

Now talking Matched play, you need to set aside points durring list creation for a pool to pull from. You pay for the unit and any equipment costs when you summon them. If you are playing Power Level then there is no retriction. Summon all you want.

The advantage you have with Summoning is that you get a little toolbox that your oppenent does not. You can also bring in units on turn 1. The issue is that you start out under streangth so going 2nd could really hurt. Also, because it totally random, you may not get what you want or need at any given time which assumes you have the points you need to actually get that unit on the board in the first place. Worst case you kill your Character (or 2) while trying.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Stux wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
"You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit" okay I think that answers my question. So turn two, I can have 3 units just pop onto board more than 9" away from an enemy model.

Right? (for matched play, competitive)


Yes, this is what you want to do. Forget about summoning. It's confusing, people get it wrong, and it's also terrible mechanically


But that's also exactly why to use it. No one expects you to bring a summoning pool, it introduces surprise into a game and limits your opponent's ability to react.

90% of the time it's more useful to put actual Daemon units into reserve. 10% of the time it's more useful to have a pile of Daemons you could bring in and let the Dice Gods decide.

   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 techsoldaten wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
"You could put those 3 Daemon units into reserves for 1CP/unit" okay I think that answers my question. So turn two, I can have 3 units just pop onto board more than 9" away from an enemy model.

Right? (for matched play, competitive)


Yes, this is what you want to do. Forget about summoning. It's confusing, people get it wrong, and it's also terrible mechanically


But that's also exactly why to use it. No one expects you to bring a summoning pool, it introduces surprise into a game and limits your opponent's ability to react.

90% of the time it's more useful to put actual Daemon units into reserve. 10% of the time it's more useful to have a pile of Daemons you could bring in and let the Dice Gods decide.


Hmm, I don't really subscribe to that. 10% chance to be useful is not good odds!

That said, if you just want to use summoning for thematic reasons regardless of power level then go nuts! Forge the narrative.

And that occasional time it works in your favour in a big way will be pretty sweet.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

I feel like the Points vs PL debate is really a good thing to look at here.

I love the summoning rules. If I ever do make my traitor guard, I'm planning on doing lots of summoning. But that's only if I'm running PL, story driven games (my preferred style) as the limitation on summoning with Points makes it more awkward and far less in theme.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Blndmage wrote:
I feel like the Points vs PL debate is really a good thing to look at here.

I love the summoning rules. If I ever do make my traitor guard, I'm planning on doing lots of summoning. But that's only if I'm running PL, story driven games (my preferred style) as the limitation on summoning with Points makes it more awkward and far less in theme.


You mean totally unlimited summoning with no reserve points?

So long as your opponent is ok with then sure! If it's something you spring on an opponent I imagine it would be very unfun.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 Stux wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I feel like the Points vs PL debate is really a good thing to look at here.

I love the summoning rules. If I ever do make my traitor guard, I'm planning on doing lots of summoning. But that's only if I'm running PL, story driven games (my preferred style) as the limitation on summoning with Points makes it more awkward and far less in theme.


You mean totally unlimited summoning with no reserve points?

So long as your opponent is ok with then sure! If it's something you spring on an opponent I imagine it would be very unfun.


thats how it was originally designed, with the matched play limitation added later.

My goal is to have a traitor guard force with TONS of characters.

The classic, " stop the ritualists before they can summon deamons" thing. Lots of summoning.

I can't run this list in a matched Play game. Due to reserve points, there's a, almost arbitrary, cap on how much I can summon.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight






Yendor

Completely unrestricted summoning would be a mistake. Its good that you have to pay points / power level to summon a model.

All summoning needs to be competitive is to remove the restriction that characters cannot move and summon. And let characters summon after deep striking in themselves. The randomness and paying points for it, as well as requiring a nexus for a character keeps it in check.

Anyway, what summoning does is let you tailor your list to your opponents list by choosing to summon in what your enemy deployed. You facing a wall of armor or imperial knights? Grab some Exalted Flamers to help blast em down, and heralds to add more smite spam. You facing a massive orc horde? Summon in anti horde daemons, or additional screening units. Unlike a traditional reserve strategy, a player with summoning gets to choose their reinforcements to capitalize on their opponents' list choices and can select precisely the units they need to execute this plan. Its exceptionally powerful if done right, but it requires significant rules drawbacks as well as a large collection of different solutions for the summoning player to draw on.

Planning on summoning also opens up some neat interactions with psychic powers- like letting you actually summon in those spawn because you will probably have the 33 points in reserve to do it. Suddenly Gift is looking a lot better.

I don't think 40K should ever go to an unrestricted summoning system where characters can summon without limit. The game is not balanced for that, and it isn't fun.


Xom finds this thread hilarious!

My 5th Edition Eldar Tactica (not updated for 6th, historical purposes only) Walking the Path of the Eldar 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

From the battle reports I've seen from games using PL, while the summoning is technically unlimited, you still need the models for the daemons, which gives it a practical cap.

Also the summoning rules themselves, when spammed with many characters tend to be self limiting.

The fact that the "you must spend/save XXpoints/PL to summon" is only a limitation for Mayched Play, and thus organized events in general, shows that the system seems to work fine in Open/Narritive Play, but due to the nature of competitive matched play, it needs limits in that format.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

I play Daemons, and quite honestly, if I was playing a PL game, I would expect to need the PL amount set aside too. I wouldn’t expect to be able to just summon spam. If it’s open/narrative...sure. But you can have matched play with PL. it’s just a different points system. But it’s still a points system.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I agree. I understand you don't need to set aside PL in a PL or narrative setting for summoning, but the few times I've played PL, I have anyway. If you're sitting on 120 plaguebearers and seek out a PL game just so you can summon them for free, you're "that" guy and you should enjoy it the one time someone plays against you - it'll be the last time, lol.

As a CSM player with a handful of plaguebearers I just enjoy summoning because it's a fun little quirky bit of fluff. I don't use it as some dastardly tactical or strategic device. It's worth pointing out as well that in a CSM force, daemons do not share the <LEGION> keyword and can break detachments unless placed in their own detachment, OR just taken as summoning points --- as those points have no keywords, etc. For instance, I have 20 plaguebearers, so I can't make a detachment with them by themselves. So I occasionally throw 70 or 140 points of my list aside and just summon them.

I think it's worth noting that summoning is extremely easy for normal sized units (4 or 8 PL etc.) so even in a narrative sense, it'd be far too easy to throw 120 extra models on the table for zero cost if you're not using matched play restrictions.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Blndmage wrote:
From the battle reports I've seen from games using PL, while the summoning is technically unlimited, you still need the models for the daemons, which gives it a practical cap.

Also the summoning rules themselves, when spammed with many characters tend to be self limiting.

The fact that the "you must spend/save XXpoints/PL to summon" is only a limitation for Mayched Play, and thus organized events in general, shows that the system seems to work fine in Open/Narritive Play, but due to the nature of competitive matched play, it needs limits in that format.


It's fine in Open/Narrative play because very few people use those formats, and the ones that do aren't worried about balance.

If you want a 'fair' game, there needs to be a limit on summoning.

If it is the pre-agreed hook for a narrative game then go ahead of course. But the other side should probably get some sort of proportionate advantage - like they just need to survive a certain number of turns to win or something.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Wasn't the fact that 7th edition allowed infinite summoning and "free" units the reason those mechanics were crippled to near uselessness in 8th?
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Elbows wrote:
I agree. I understand you don't need to set aside PL in a PL or narrative setting for summoning, but the few times I've played PL, I have anyway. If you're sitting on 120 plaguebearers and seek out a PL game just so you can summon them for free, you're "that" guy and you should enjoy it the one time someone plays against you - it'll be the last time, lol.

As a CSM player with a handful of plaguebearers I just enjoy summoning because it's a fun little quirky bit of fluff. I don't use it as some dastardly tactical or strategic device. It's worth pointing out as well that in a CSM force, daemons do not share the <LEGION> keyword and can break detachments unless placed in their own detachment, OR just taken as summoning points --- as those points have no keywords, etc. For instance, I have 20 plaguebearers, so I can't make a detachment with them by themselves. So I occasionally throw 70 or 140 points of my list aside and just summon them.

I think it's worth noting that summoning is extremely easy for normal sized units (4 or 8 PL etc.) so even in a narrative sense, it'd be far too easy to throw 120 extra models on the table for zero cost if you're not using matched play restrictions.


It's worth noting that summoning does work automatically, the odds of summoning more than 8 PL are slim, and an HQ unit needs to stand still in order to summon.

While I can think of a few ways to summon 120 Daemons onto the board, I can't think of any *useful* ways to do so. The summoning pool comes at the cost of other units in your army, you're short-handed until they get there, and their placement is limited by the position of the summoner. The summoned units don't get the advantages that come with being in a dedicated Daemon detachment, they have a minimum 9 inch charge range the turn they come in, and the board gets quite crowded when things start suddenly appearing. The character that did the summoning is often exposed afterwards, being unable to move, and that often costs more than someone stands to gain with the new units.

   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I actually use summoning when I find a character is exposed...lol. If I find something's gone wrong and I have a character a bit out on his own, I'll summon daemons because it stops the character from being targeted.

Again, I don't try to justify game-play why it's a good idea to summon. I summon because it's fun, and kinda cool.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 techsoldaten wrote:


It's worth noting that summoning does work automatically, the odds of summoning more than 8 PL are slim, and an HQ unit needs to stand still in order to summon.


Not quite. A CHARACTER needs to stay still to summon them. Being a HQ is not a requirement.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Grimtuff wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:


It's worth noting that summoning does work automatically, the odds of summoning more than 8 PL are slim, and an HQ unit needs to stand still in order to summon.


Not quite. A CHARACTER needs to stay still to summon them. Being a HQ is not a requirement.


Does Chaos have non-HQ characters? I can't remember.

I know loyal Marines do, Ancients and such.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Stux wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:


It's worth noting that summoning does work automatically, the odds of summoning more than 8 PL are slim, and an HQ unit needs to stand still in order to summon.


Not quite. A CHARACTER needs to stay still to summon them. Being a HQ is not a requirement.


Does Chaos have non-HQ characters? I can't remember.

I know loyal Marines do, Ancients and such.


Yup, all of the Death Guard ones- Foul Blightspawns, Tallymen, Biologis Putrifiers, Noxious Blightbringers and Plague Surgeons. All are Elites and characters. Also Exalted Flamers in Daemons themselves. Thousand Sons have Tzaangor Shamans too.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/16 20:49:02



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Enforcers, for R&H are Elite Characters as well!

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Stux wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:


It's worth noting that summoning does work automatically, the odds of summoning more than 8 PL are slim, and an HQ unit needs to stand still in order to summon.


Not quite. A CHARACTER needs to stay still to summon them. Being a HQ is not a requirement.


Does Chaos have non-HQ characters? I can't remember.

I know loyal Marines do, Ancients and such.


Yup, all of the Death Guard ones- Foul Blightspawns, Tallymen, Biologis Putrifiers, Noxious Blightbringers and Plague Surgeons. All are Elites and characters. Also Exalted Flamers in Daemons themselves. Thousand Sons have Tzaangor Shamans too.


Ok cool. So lots for Chaos overall, none for Codex Heretic Astartes?
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Wasn't the fact that 7th edition allowed infinite summoning and "free" units the reason those mechanics were crippled to near uselessness in 8th?
Yes, sadly. I like the mechanic overall for Summoning, and do feel it should be paid for, but there are just far, FAR too many restrictions for it to EVER be worth doing.

Personally, I would have let the Character doing the summoning Move, and instead give up Shooting, Psychic (if they have Psychic) AND Assault.
I'd also allow the unit summoned to be placed within 12" of the Character and at least 6" away from Enemy units.

So the Character gives up everything, but can position in a way the allows the unit summoned to have a very good chance of Assaulting.
That would have made it worthwhile, especially since you'd still have to pay for the unit and wait until turn 2

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/19 15:09:32


   
 
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