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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.

Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.

All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.

There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.

The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).

They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.

Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.

I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.

They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.

Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?

This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.

   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Machine Spirits are a key part of the background. They serve to demonstrate just how little man's technology is understood. To us, it's just a computer programme, albeit a sophisticated one.

All serves to show just how pig ignorant even the higher ups in the Mechanicus are, and how doomed the whole thing is.

There's also the possibility that the Machine Spirits in certain machines (such as Titans, where the Princeps has to actively dominate it) may be previously sentient designs that have been lobotomised to prevent too much independent thought and action.

The background I dislike is more a matter of exclusion than inclusion, and that's The Dark Mechanicum (or indeed, The Mechanicum, given the loyalist version was reorganised and rebranded during the Heresy).

They're such a crucial part of the renegade war machine, yet we know next to nothing about them. We know they deal with marrying Daemons to Technology. We know they trade in slaves and souls. But that's about it.

Given a large chunk of the reason to side with Horus was a lifting of a great many restrictions, where's the pay off? Where's the hideous gribbly nasties produced from their unholy research and development? Because to be honest, the smattering of Daemon Engines (many of which are actually made in Godly Foundries), there's not an awful lot to show for it.

I personally envisage them as somewhere between demented Mekboy, and well learned Techpriest. Always tinkering. Always pushing what's possible. Capable, but possibly uninterested, in creating mass production, instead favouring one-offs by their nature.

They play an important role for the renegade chapters and legions, yet the background just doesn't properly reflect it.

Their actions also go someway to explaining why Renegades don't keep Imperial tech around. In my head canon, they're forcibly stripped of it. Thunder Hammers, Stormshields, Landspeeders, Assault Cannons. Anything even vaguely 'modern' is taken as tribute, likely willingly. Yes, an Assault Cannon is a better weapon in a fight to a Reaper Autocannon. But it also requires far, far more maintence to keep it in any semblance of working order. When you're a Renegade Chapter or Company, do you want to be paying the tariff to keep your Landspeeders in the air, or focus on your Predators and Transports? Which can you more readily do without? Which is going to need the least visits to the creepy Renegade Magos? Which is going to incur the least debt? And what does the Dark Mechanicum do with those shiny pretties? Are they stockpiling them? Stripping for parts? Repurposing? What's the power structure on a fallen Forgeworld? How does one attain and retain station? How does it all function?

This all needs to be properly explored within the lore.


Thats fair enough. I guess being an engineer I see machines and stuff like that as the synergy of their working components and the human ingenuity that created them. its not that I don't care for the sentimentalization of machinery, I dont think many people with a technical mindset could imagine working with their machines for so long and not feeling like they almost have a sort of soul, I just dont think they need to be these overtly sentient beings that can talk to their pilots etc. I just feel like the whole lore of the unification and the great crusade, this showcase of mans might, and that the machines having these sentient souls takes away from the perception of this massive technological power.

I completely agree about the dark mechanicus. They are hugely under-represented both in the lore and in the miniatures range(although I believe this is possibly about to change?) at the moment they are just a plot device to show that the traitor legions still have the capacity to acquire arms and equipment. a BL novel concerning the DM would be awesome, and as you say, there is huge scope for the subject to cover.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Daemon invasion interrupting the attack on Baal. Just cuz.
Was silly wand waving stuff imo.
Made even sillier by the idea that Ka'Bandah had somehow intervened so he could keep up his feud with the BAs.

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Newcrons, Primaris and the Siege of Fenris are the top three for me.

Newcrons are just worse than oldcrons in most ways IMO, Primaris were an alright idea done terribly with ridiculous characters courtesy of Cawl and the Siege of Fenris felt dumb from the Axe of Morkai still being Chaosy to the fact it was the Thousand Sons attacking Fenris. For reasons.

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I personally can see why they shifted the lore on Necrons, and it even plays into their faction "waking up" as they shifted from unknown automatons to thinking beings - at least at the lord level.

Warhammer already has Tyranids as the almost totally unknown faction (all their lore is written from reports of interactions with the, even in the Codex Tyranids have no "voice" of the hive to express themselves).


What I tend to dislike is the casual disconnection of structure. Both in a sense of where things happen and in a sense of timelines. I think GW also struggles with this as sometimes events and characters line up in their books which should, in theory, be impossible.
Of course operating at Galactic scale gives them loads of room to have whole systems destroyed and rosters of key characters obliterated without it affecting the greater extent of the factions and their relative standing toward each other.


AoS also suffers from this, esp in that there isn't really a dating system for stories to key into. So you can be reading one that sounds like its set earlier and another that sounds like its set generations later. Yet you've no real solid point of reference to infer from. About the only reference point is the return of the Stormcast - and casual writing about that (in a story not focused on that event) can be open to interpretation.

Characters in far off realms just hearing about it might well be getting news fast or it could be the news took two or three generations to reach them.

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Bodt

I agree about Primaris. I've always said they shouldve kept them as a new mark of armour to accompany the upscaling, and left it at that, no origin stories etc.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Most of the details about the Heresy. A lot of that is the tone; I got into the 40k setting with 1st edition Space Marine, where the high gothic and baroque feel was still in its infancy - Space Marines and Primarchs were more recognisably human with human emotions and responses. The language in that game wasn't so baroque either. I think that gave it a different feel to 40k, but I might be misremembering.

I liked the early Horus Heresy novels - the first four especially. After that though, it became clear they were going to drag this out for ages (rather like M*A*S*H lasting longer than the Korean War, Black Library have made their novel series last longer than a galactic conflict! ). I packed it in halfway through Nemesis and haven't looked back. The bits I've picked up from Lexicanum and this forum read like bad comic book plots.

Other than that - although perhaps related - it's when they go into too much detail about something that they clearly don't know enough about. Military enthusiasts have been rolling their eyes over the specs of tanks and suchlike that have been published over the years, for example, but a more subtle problem is that the milky way as depicted in the galactic maps isn't the same shape as the real Milky Way, and Earth appears to have moved. I'd prefer it if they just glossed over that sort of thing altogether.
   
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Oh boy, here we go...

The HH series. Everything about it. We do not need to know the exact details of something that happened in 40k's timeline that goes back than recorded human history in our own. It's a bloated cash cow of a load of manchildren that has reduced most of them to memes and/or had Flanderized them.

40k now becoming a "story" and everyone being cool with this, and heaven forbid you bring this point up ion Reddit etc.. This ties back the above point. Why was a sandbox of 10,000 years of history on a galactic scale of untold number of planets "stagnant and boring" exactly? 40k was a setting- everything was at 2 minutes to midnight, just before the apocalypse was about to consume everything into darkness, but no. Now we've go a galaxy of untold trillions are we'll focus on the same dozen or so characters who are everywhere at once.

The Primaris. They've been hamfisted in in such a way it's embarrassing. Why have no chapters rejected them? Why has everyone just gone along with the word of a Mary Sue who is a blatant Heretek and should have executed on the spot for his crimes against the Imperium? When the the imperium suddenly become this unified entity that had everyone working towards a common goal? The imperium normally is a large juggernaut that exists despite itself with so much bureaucracy and infighting holding it back from taking over the stars. Yes, I'm sure the Indominus Crusade got a load of organizations there to get their gak together, but it would be back to normality soon enough. Where is this?

The meme-ification of 40k in general. Like how most of the internet seems to get its background knowledge from a combination of 1D4chan and Text to speech series. "Hurr durr I'mma Abby da armless" is like the height of comedy apparently because people don't want to do their research.

Certain elements of the Newcrons (Trazyn is the one thing that gets a pass). The unknowable horror that is the personal army of a handful of star vampire demi-gods was an excellent theme. Why flip the roles? In doing so you feth up the fluff about the War in Heaven and the Enslaver Plague due to your retcons GW.

The direction the Tau have veered off into- I loved it when the Tau were meant to be a republic of loads of minor alien species all together as a combined army, each covering their own deficiencies (a "greater good" if you will. ). Tau initially didn't use Titans, they took down larger things with a combined arms approach and superheavy Aircraft (the Manta was/is a Tau Titan equivalent)- Then the big suits came and the alien republic idea started to play second fiddle. I'd love for GW to go back to the well with that idea and add in loads of minor races like the Tarrelians, K'Nib, Demiurg etc. to the Tau's ranks.


All I can think of for now. Phew!


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

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The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.

Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.

Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.
   
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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.

Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.


Why wouldnt they be sentient?
They use lobotomized humans as door locks and sentry guns and daemons or psykers in warp drives.
Your current day engineer thinking has no place in 40k.
The machine spirit sounds more a animal that has to be controlled dependent on the type of machine of course.
War hounds have dog brains. Reavers are tigers. Land raiders have marine brains.
There might be a ban on AI, but that doesnt mean they cant plonk a brain in a jar in it.
Anything else is men of iron heresy.

   
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How wolfy the Space Wolves are now. I collected a 2e SW army and liked the wolf emblems, the fangs, and the hazy rumour of the curse of the Wulfen.
Now Logan Grimnar rides a chariot pulled by wolves. Of course he does.
Gone totally too far, I'm afraid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/19 16:00:20


 
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.

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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.


I've only read one BL novel so far and it was terrible. I've got Betrayer by ADB up next which gets good reviews to change my mind.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





I like the idea that reality in 40k is breaking down, hence the increasing number of psyckers, and that more than just humans have souls (and that the utility of spiritual care for a weapon is effective for the weapon, as well as a good way of ensuring proper maintenance).

I dislike the Primaris as well, which annoys me because the models are gorgeous. I wish they'd just shrunk the guardsmen models.
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

the ancient wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Personally I've always hated the lore regarding 'Machine Spirits.' Reading BL books I've come across everything from the machine spirit speaking to pilots/characters etc, to the machine spirit of a land raider operating independently from its crew members. It just seems so dumb to me. And to fix it you wouldn't even have to change anything, just stop referring to 'machine spirits' as actual sentient beings. you could still have mechanicum priests praying to the spirits, and even suggest that some machines almost have their own personalities. As an engineer myself I'm well aware that there are often little performance differences across machines of the same type that almost make them appear as their own characters, just dont make it so overt as to make them sentient.

Are there any parts of the 40k lore you especially dislike? Share and discuss your gripes here.


Why wouldnt they be sentient?
They use lobotomized humans as door locks and sentry guns and daemons or psykers in warp drives.
Your current day engineer thinking has no place in 40k.
The machine spirit sounds more a animal that has to be controlled dependent on the type of machine of course.
War hounds have dog brains. Reavers are tigers. Land raiders have marine brains.
There might be a ban on AI, but that doesnt mean they cant plonk a brain in a jar in it.
Anything else is men of iron heresy.



nothing in the books mentions the machinery containing interfaced human brains or genetic material. sure, some have interface cables to their human crew, but in that case surely the machine should take on the personality of the crewman?
I'm aware of pointing out the 'silliness' of machines having spirits within the fantastical context of the 40k universe, but it just seems unnecessarily silly for the sake of it.

plus lore wise, pre hersey everyone generally accepts that there are no gods/religion, but blindly accepts that their tank has a spirit of its own?

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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:


nothing in the books mentions the machinery containing interfaced human brains or genetic material. sure, some have interface cables to their human crew, but in that case surely the machine should take on the personality of the crewman?
I'm aware of pointing out the 'silliness' of machines having spirits within the fantastical context of the 40k universe, but it just seems unnecessarily silly for the sake of it.

plus lore wise, pre hersey everyone generally accepts that there are no gods/religion, but blindly accepts that their tank has a spirit of its own?


No gods/religion is a bit different from sticking a brain in a jar and saying theres your cpu.
Jerry soldier and burt marine dont even know how to reset a track. But might slap her walls and say take care of us armoured fury.
Well i dont expect a princeps to understand how all the bits work. But a titan crew interfaces with something animalistic that fights against the crew. Eventually they do sort of take on the princeps personalities. Like a dog straining at the leash. That eventually knows whos master
Theres plenty of them using servitors as door locks and sentry guns.
There was the diagram of the land raider that had one. Way way back.
There was a Tau book that had them pouring over a wrecked Imperial ship. They were attempting to dismantle the warp drive that had a soup of dna in it. After touching it even the tau got a touch of the daemon. One of the Farsight books maybe?
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Servitors are different though. Theyre just humans with some non organic bits stuck on.

And in that case, they aren't really pure machines, but cyborgs containing human intellect or something. If thats the case it should be made clearer really, rather than.. Here's a tank it gets mad of its own accord but there's no explanation other than it has a 'spirit'

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queen_annes_revenge wrote:I like the heresy stuff. The forge world miniatures are amazing from a painting perspective, although I do try to snag half built/ painted bargains on ebay rather than paying full price. I also like the novels. I'd agree on there being too many though, and I avoid the ones which are collections of short stories. you cant really blame them for taking that direction though. once you start reading them you do want to carry on.



I totally agree on the excellent model from FW, when I started my Salamanders at the end of RT I really wanted to hear more about the backstory(i know big changes yayayaya) but with them fleshing out the Heresey and actually trying to create a cohesive mythos i can really get behind it. I'm eagerly awaiting the Siege of Terra and what models they might bring out for it. They do need to show more of the Dark Mech and civilian perspectives to really bring the Siege to life.

What do I dislike about the lore? How they did they screwed over the Squats by just lazily writing them out as being chomped by the nids. The real kick in the balls is how well they made the Kharadrons more squatty than they ever made the Squats. Grombrindal is wearing power armour and Grendl is badass, so WTF GW?
   
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The Ynnari having the capacity to cure the Rubric. I don't think there should be any indication the Rubric is curable in the first place; the whole point of it is that Ahriman's quest is probably impossible but he's going to keep trying anyways because that's just how Tzeentchy the guy is. The fact that they made curing the Rubric an effortless endeavor for their new super special knife ear waifu is just salt in the wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/19 22:45:43


 
   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The "ancient unknowable evil" of the Necrons and C'Tan was tainted for my for two reasons.

Firstly, that's what Chaos is for - the enemy beyond.

Secondly, at one point in 3rd edition, the sodding Necrons and/or C'Tan were behind everything; like the overexposure of the Heresy, it just made them rather laughable, not threatening.

I think Chaos is more of the enemy within. The Eldar fell to it because they decided self control was for nerds and started knifing each other, Chaos gets servants by people falling to desire for power or bloodlust and demons are made from emotion.

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1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.

What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.

2. I don't mind the Primaris that much, was a bit weird to bring Guilliman back and they missed the opportunity to bring back old characters rather than new ones never-before mentioned (Mordrak and Valeria would be an excellent replacement for the GK and Inquisitor triumvriate who's names escape me), and the whole Indominatus Crusade takes place over centuries, I can imagine in that timeline there probably are Chapters which refuse the Primaris first of all, but may have been "convinced" by Guilliman to do so.

3. With the HH, I don't necessarily mind how long it has taken, more about the sheer number of things they're releasing. Before, you had books, and maybe the odd compilation, whereas now you have books, audiobooks, short stories, unabridged editions, limited editions and so on.
   
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To me, "machine spirit" is three things, simultaneously and occasionally overlapping;

A synonym for the Omnissiah - or a part thereof. Whatever it is that makes machines holy and deserving of worship in of themselves. This is a general "machine spirit", not connected to a single device.

The "spirit" of each individual machine. This could be as a fragment of the overall "machine spirit", I suppose. This is what's "appeased" by the rituals and unguents of construction, maintenance and operation

A machine intelligence - it could be something as simple as Alexa, Cortana or whatever Google call theirs, up to a genuine sapient artificial intelligence like UR-025. In this case, a "machine spirit" will be the sanctioned kind of machine intelligence, as distinguished from an Abominable Intelligence which is to be shunned and destroyed. How one distinguishes the two kinds may not be obvious to the layman.
   
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The distinction could be 'have we had multiple instances reported of these Spirits actively trying to kill us, known malfunctions aside'?

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The distinction could be 'have we had multiple instances reported of these Spirits actively trying to kill us, known malfunctions aside'?


What's a malfunction?

Nay good sir you are thinking incorrectly. A machine spirit cannot malfunction, it is the pure essence of the machine will. If it is pure and true to the Emperor and Imperium of Man it will serve just as any guardsman or human of the Imperium would. To further the cause of mankind and protect it from the xeno, the mutant, the accursed and the unclean.
If the machine spirit becomes corrupted by the forces of chaos, if its will is twisted by decay and lies. Then such a spirit will fall to the forces of evil and must be purged.

Machine spirits are strong, but as the Iron Men showed, they are flawed and so easily corrupted by the darkness of Chaos, unlike the sanctified mind of a human. Thus one must always remain alert and see that duty, prayer and worship of the machine and its spirit is conducted without flaw or pause. To ensure that the spirit remains clean of the taint of chaos and that any infection is rooted out and machines purged from the Imperium.


(or more basically, keep it in good repair, fix it up and if you notice bits of it wriggling or talking to you BURN IT

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Primaris and the return of the loyalist Primarchs, get that gak outta here.

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AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
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 Valkyrie wrote:
1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.

What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.


That's a big part of the whole 40K setting. Mankind has fallen and doesn't actually understand all of its technology any more. What was once a maintenance routine has devolved into a religious ritual. My take on the machine spirit is that it is just an AI built into the more advanced vehicles like Land Raiders.

Bit of the lore that I don't like? Orks = space fungus.
   
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Bodt

Yeah I don't like the idea of them being fungus either.

It seems weird, that so far in the future humans would forget how to use spanners and hammers, especially considering the techno barbarian predecessors to the imperium.

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Crispy78 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
1. I don't mind Machine Spirits that much, they've always come across to me as a rudimentary AI that still needs human interaction to function, similar to your PC operating system, they're just there in the background.

What I'm not a fan of however is the level of religious zealotry that's prevalent in the AdMec, when repairs are like "Apply the sacred unguents to the machine while reciting the Rite of Repair and sacrificing a small child", I imagine they're actually much more technically inclined and actually repair stuff properly.


That's a big part of the whole 40K setting. Mankind has fallen and doesn't actually understand all of its technology any more. What was once a maintenance routine has devolved into a religious ritual. My take on the machine spirit is that it is just an AI built into the more advanced vehicles like Land Raiders.

Bit of the lore that I don't like? Orks = space fungus.

What's wrong with space fungus? I like it.

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Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

PERPETUALS! And most other stuff from the BL HH series. And the beast arises stuff. PRIME ORKS! Utter rubbish.

As for space fungus I am fine with algae in blood symbiosis but not sure about the rest. But spore reproduction explains the lack of obvious genders amongst ORKS.
   
 
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