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In the interest of both reducing the amount of MWs in the game and increasing Smite's efficiency against chaff units, I propose the following change to Smite:

"Smite has a warp charge value of 5. If manifested, the closest visible enemy unit within 18" of the psyker suffers D6 automatic wounds at AP-1, Damage 1.
If the result of the Psychic test was 10 or higher, the target suffers D6 mortal wounds instead."

So this turns Smite into a generic wound generator that still allows saving throws, unless the roll is sufficiently high.
This makes Smite a handy tool against any target, rather than just against more Elite targets.
Hopefully, this is also makes it balanced enough to also remove the Matched play restriction that makes Smite harder to cast on successive attempts

Thoughts?

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As much as I think there's too much AP, AP-2 at least seems appropriate. They're attacking you with the freaking warp. It should be scarier than a Plasma Grenade.

Bharring wrote:
As much as I think there's too much AP, AP-2 at least seems appropriate. They're attacking you with the freaking warp. It should be scarier than a Plasma Grenade.

Well, yes and no. The Psyker is manifesting energy from the warp, yes, but that energy takes physical form in the materium.
Remember Smite is meant to represent the generic Witchfire powers from prior editions, most of which had little to no AP.

I feel it makes perfect sense for the basic version to only be AP-1. This also keeps it balanced against unit with decent armour (which current Smite seems tailor made against).
If you also notice, I altered the powered up version to kick in on a 10 or higher, rather than the current "more than 10", so that version should happen slightly more often, but still be rare enough to not be a reliable anti-tank tool.

The powered up version is meant to represent the attack bypassing armour/invul and cut straight to the soul of the target.

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I'd do the powered up version as AP-4 instead of MW. Or 2d6 wounds. I'd suggest going all in on the "not MW" aspect of this change.

But MWs are a good mechanic, they're just too common. If you remove them from Smite, many armies will loose their main access to MWs and thus you invite complaints that X faction now has all the MWs and factions Y & Z don't.

Again, MWs are a good mechanic that SHOULD exist in 40K to prevent Invul save abuse. It's just too common.

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This has no real impact on its effectiveness against chaff units - it only makes it less likely to hurt units with good saves.

auto wounds at AP-1 on a model with a 6+ save is the same as a mortal wound. on any model with a 5+ or more, it's less effective than a mortal wound.

this power would basically be useless against any 3+ save units, unless you're a really powerful psyker.

 some bloke wrote:
This has no real impact on its effectiveness against chaff units - it only makes it less likely to hurt units with good saves.

auto wounds at AP-1 on a model with a 6+ save is the same as a mortal wound. on any model with a 5+ or more, it's less effective than a mortal wound.

this power would basically be useless against any 3+ save units, unless you're a really powerful psyker.

That brings 3+ save units up to a 4+.

That means around half of the wounds you cause will kill.

I think I prefer 2d3 to 6, or D6 but 1s and 2s count as 3.

 some bloke wrote:
This has no real impact on its effectiveness against chaff units - it only makes it less likely to hurt units with good saves.

auto wounds at AP-1 on a model with a 6+ save is the same as a mortal wound. on any model with a 5+ or more, it's less effective than a mortal wound.

this power would basically be useless against any 3+ save units, unless you're a really powerful psyker.

I guess rather than saying it makes it more efficient, I meant to say less tempting to use only against things with good saves, which the current iteration is.
Why would you use Smite against chaff to only do d3 wounds, when you could get the same result against a tank?

Smite should be more effects against weaker units than tough ones as it is supposed to be a generic Witchfire, like flames or lightning.
I'm trying to solve several issues with 1 simple change.

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It just changes its job. So what are armies with reletively low ap supposed to use agaisnt riptides? Knights? Storm shield termies?

Its not good to take tools away from people who rely on them.

Isn't the hole point AP doesn't do gak against those units?

Because Invulns are given out like candy.

 Lance845 wrote:
It just changes its job. So what are armies with reletively low ap supposed to use agaisnt riptides? Knights? Storm shield termies?

Its not good to take tools away from people who rely on them.

You'd still do auto wounds against those, with a chance still to do MWs. That's the whole reason I've "upped" the super Smite to '10 or more' rather than "more than 10"

But what about assigning the powered up version to 9 or more? Would that bridge the gap, or just make MW spam worse? It's a fine line

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I'd like to see less invuls in general. Invul's should be restricted to things like phasing out of reality, like a 5++ for daemons.

Wouldn't it make more sense for some invuls to be more like a Fnpish? Like refractor shields.

Sir Heckington wrote:
I'd like to see less invuls in general. Invul's should be restricted to things like phasing out of reality, like a 5++ for daemons.

Wouldn't it make more sense for some invuls to be more like a Fnpish? Like refractor shields.

Like Ward saves? Yeah I suggested that too:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766565.page

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 Galef wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
I'd like to see less invuls in general. Invul's should be restricted to things like phasing out of reality, like a 5++ for daemons.

Wouldn't it make more sense for some invuls to be more like a Fnpish? Like refractor shields.

Like Ward saves? Yeah I suggested that too:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766565.page

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I know, I saw that. I think some invuls should stick, like aforementioned Daemons, but it shouldn't really go over 5++/

4++ is fine in some cases, like Characters and a one-off big model.
3++ is fine on super elite melee units like Terminators.

The problem with Invuls right now is whole armies getting 4++ and a Knight with a 3++. Tone down those 2 things and Invuls will not be an issue.
Harlequins, for example, should have been 5++ with their vehicles having 4+ armour. Just make them cheaper.

Tone down Invuls and Smite is less needed, and more importantly, can be used as intended, as a generic Witchfire that does auto-wounds, with a small chance to ignore saves.

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 Galef wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
It just changes its job. So what are armies with reletively low ap supposed to use agaisnt riptides? Knights? Storm shield termies?

Its not good to take tools away from people who rely on them.

You'd still do auto wounds against those, with a chance still to do MWs. That's the whole reason I've "upped" the super Smite to '10 or more' rather than "more than 10"

But what about assigning the powered up version to 9 or more? Would that bridge the gap, or just make MW spam worse? It's a fine line

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No. 7+ is the point where you have a greater than 50% chance on 2d6. Every point above 7 is a drastic reduction in the chance of it happening. Would you like to gamble on a 25% chance to reliably do something? Those odds seam reasonable to you?

I think MW's being limited that far with invuls being limited to 5++ is fair.

 Galef wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
This has no real impact on its effectiveness against chaff units - it only makes it less likely to hurt units with good saves.

auto wounds at AP-1 on a model with a 6+ save is the same as a mortal wound. on any model with a 5+ or more, it's less effective than a mortal wound.

this power would basically be useless against any 3+ save units, unless you're a really powerful psyker.

I guess rather than saying it makes it more efficient, I meant to say less tempting to use only against things with good saves, which the current iteration is.
Why would you use Smite against chaff to only do d3 wounds, when you could get the same result against a tank?

Smite should be more effects against weaker units than tough ones as it is supposed to be a generic Witchfire, like flames or lightning.
I'm trying to solve several issues with 1 simple change.

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I like the idea of a smite that does more wounds with less save-penetration, but I don't feel there's really a need to shut down the existing version of smite either. Since the changes to increase the difficulty of successive smites, smite spam just hasn't seemed to be as problematic of a thing. The things that can do full smite typically cost an amount that seems appropriate for 2 (read: d3) wounds a turn. What about having the d6 AP -1 wounds as an alternative form of smite? So anything with real smite (as opposed to destructor or whatever) can opt for one or the other pre-battle?

Terminator armor should probably protect you from (some forms of) psychic fire, but it probably shouldn't do much against my efforts to telekinetically pop your hearts or trap your mind in an illussory nightmare world. This would basically let you flavor your psykers as either the fire and lightning types or the mind crushing heart popper types.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
4++ is fine in some cases, like Characters and a one-off big model.
3++ is fine on super elite melee units like Terminators.

The problem with Invuls right now is whole armies getting 4++ and a Knight with a 3++. Tone down those 2 things and Invuls will not be an issue.
Harlequins, for example, should have been 5++ with their vehicles having 4+ armour. Just make them cheaper.

Tone down Invuls and Smite is less needed, and more importantly, can be used as intended, as a generic Witchfire that does auto-wounds, with a small chance to ignore saves.

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Between this and the other thread, I'm surprised to find that people have such an issue with 4+ invuls on things like harlequins. I know my murder clowns are pretty good at surviving lascannons, but they drop to bolter fire as quickly as my dire avengers do. Quicker if the avengers are in cover. Is this really a problem for people? Honest question. I'd think that a t3 model worth 20+ points if I've given him any gear would look like a pretty squishy target to people, even with a 4+ save.

Of course, I have a bit of a bias against dropping points on "elite" models like harlequins. Bringing them 1 step closer to horde status just seems inappropriate to me on a fluff level. Same reason, I cringe every time someone wants to drop the cost of marines again (even though they are overcosted.)