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A large number of people seem to think the necrons are an unviable army in 8e. So what are the problems and what are the fixes? Points cost reductions? Making resurrection easier?
Better gauss weapons?

Purely as an outsider, it looks like they are over pointed and suffer from a lack of easily accessible multi damage sources.

Well, I played Necrons in 6th and 7th edition shelving my beloved Eldar for being over the top.
In the new ed., I came back to Eldar shelving Necrons.
Necrons are hardly playable atm.
The main problem I see is point costs. Reductions of 20% would make them viable again.

Points reductions across the board and some better synergy/buffs for RP.

I think RP as a core rule is fine, but there need to be better buffs to it. Best suggestions I've seen are:

Allowing Res Orbs to be triggered at any time.
Spyders can reanimate dead units
Stratagem to roll RP on dead units (probably 3CP)

I also think we need the Gauss rule back to give our warriors some kick against armour, but I think the first lot of changes are much more important.

Monolith also needs an inv save, a 2+ save or QS. It'd also be amazing for it coming in at the start of the movement phase rather than the end, so units can disembark the turn it arrives, but I think this is pie in the sky stuff.

I recently saw a game where Orks out shot a Necron army. I think Necrons have the same problem as marines but don't have as much access to anti-tank weapons. I think they should add a mortal wound against vehicle keyword on a 6 to wound to all their gauss weapons. The point reduction issue is always brought up but I think the Reanimation protocol or We'll be Back rules should be where they address their durability. I still think I laughed for 5 minutes about that 2k game where Orks out shot a decent looking Necron list. Hilarious!

 Brotherjanus wrote:
I recently saw a game where Orks out shot a Necron army. I think Necrons have the same problem as marines but don't have as much access to anti-tank weapons. I think they should add a mortal wound against vehicle keyword on a 6 to wound to all their gauss weapons. The point reduction issue is always brought up but I think the Reanimation protocol or We'll be Back rules should be where they address their durability. I still think I laughed for 5 minutes about that 2k game where Orks out shot a decent looking Necron list. Hilarious!

That idea to make gauss do mortal wounds on 6+ actually sounds quite cool and fun. Maybe auto wounds vehicles on a 6 instead if mortal wounds is too powerful. But still, interesting idea.

Some way to block psychic powers would be nice.

Over-Priced infantry
No cheap multi-damage sources
Short Ranged Shooting Still (24 Inches)
RP can by bypassed via target selection and priority
Vehicles being T6, 4+ armor, but very expensive
Anti-Vehicle firepower is very expensive, and most of it is either 1 shot, or on a d6 shots.
Lack of Cheap Screens
Almost no recourse against psyker-heavy armies
No psychic phase presence.
Flyers are completely unplayable
Transports are all broken.

I think Lychguard would be quite great if they were 10% cheaper. And the Monolith would be amazing with a big point reduction. 1 or 2 of them being able to be placed comfortably in a list would be fun.

In escense, you're all correct.

However, it can be broken down more "thoroughly" into several factoids:

1:
GW priced us based on a gimmicky-at-best survivable mechnic way back when, and hasnt really done anything else since.

We are priced around a revival mechanic that is very easy to neuter in this edition of Overkill Above All, so we seem very lackluster bang-for-buck.


2:
We have absolute zero customisation, not even taking the piss there either.

Our HQs (which are hilariously overpriced comparatively) have a weapon choice, thats it. The Cryptek doesnt even have that, instead it has Cloak or Chrono.

Our basic trooper has no options period. Our 'advanced trooper' has an option of gun A or gun B.

Our Elites Troopers have, in order, 2 options of big stabby or little stabby with shield, 2 options of big stabby/shooty or little stabby more/shooty futher, 1-trick-wonder, legitimately useless outside of a perfect 1-turn countercharge. Or are gimmick-hungry Shards... (then FW)

Our Fast Attacks do everything, so we need like 12 in each list. (also more FW)

And Heavies are realy limited, in that they're all Vehicles or the Spyder, barring the H.Destropyers, which arent that good

bringing us on to Vehicles, they're all extremely fragile, even with QS.

monolith is overpriced (and no QS), Flyers are barely viable if at all, and we have no other DT outside of a truck that specifies it can only carry the basic guys or Characters (AND it cant even fit a full size unit of said bsic guys in it) (barring yet more FW)

but, our good LoW is obnoxious good, like argueably most OP in game for their cost, hance them shooting up by 75points in CA



I think that about covers it

If the RP role won't change then I think larger unit sizes would help. It's no secret that you just focus fire down a necron unit to deny RP. As the game scales up in points that simply becomes easier.

I feel (in addition to points drops across the board) warriors should be up to 40, immortals 20, Destroyers 10, and lychguard 20.

If RP forces you to take infantry bricks then at least let them be units large enough to actually survive and get an RP roll.

Still doesn't address the other problems of lack of anti-tank, no anti-psyker, broken flyers, wierd statline vehicles, etc but one thing at a time.

Where to start? Necrons are pretty much universally overpriced and extremely inflexible. On top of that we have an army-wide special rule that is easily countered just by playing the game properly and many of our vehicles are terrible because they have a bunch of non-functional special rules that actually hinder them rather than helping them. We also lack anti-tank, which means we've gone from having some of the best anti-tank in previous editions to the worst in 8th. Because our models are so expensive we get outshot by everything (including Orks) and we lack the range to effectively trade fire with most armies anyway. In practical terms, when you look at effective shooting, Necrons are pretty solidly in the bottom tier. Despite defeating the most powerful race of psykers ever to exist in the 40k universe we also have one of the worst psychic defences in the game, behind only Tau. Necrons also lack aura abilities, which means our characters are both extremely expensive and much more restricted in their impact than those of other races. What's really annoying is I think the Necron way of handing out unit buffs is probably how the whole of 40k should work, but since everyone else gets such easy access to auras Necrons are left behind again. Even more bizarrely, the range on some of our buffs is only 3", despite them not even being auras.

To fix this, Necrons need some pretty drastic point reductions, but the designers need to be careful not to go too far because Reanimation Protocols could potentially be completely broken if Necrons become too cheap. Characters and vehicles could easily be made much cheaper without breaking anything though. I think the issues go further than that, and things like our lack of anti-tank are baked into the fabric of the army because of the lack of customisation. That means we can't scatter a bunch of anti-tank weapons across our units and instead have to put them all in one or two units, which then become very easy to destroy, especially when you consider the short range of most Necron weapons. I honestly think the best approach would probably be to tear the Codex up and start again because the problems with Necrons are quite hard to solve with points with the rules and options as they are.

if you're really worried about balancing resurrection protocols, just make it a 5+ FNP.

Apart from that, everyone else has it covered.
* Everything is too expensive
* Limited or unreliable anti-tank
* slow, short range, no functional transports

momerathe wrote:
if you're really worried about balancing resurrection protocols, just make it a 5+ FNP.

Congrats, you just made robot deathguard and got rid of the gimmick that made necrons necrons.
There should be FNP somewhere in the army, but it shouldn't replace RP.

The dynasty traits need to be redone. They aren't great. I play Orks, and I love what they did there. Everything has a use and you have 7 options.
With necrons you have 5 options and they are all dull and mediocre, that don't really synergize with the rest of the army.
If the Bad Moons trait replaced nihilakh and if Necrons had access to the snakebites trait, they would be so much better. And snakebites are considered to be the worst of the orks traits.

No conventional transports is a design element, and it should stay that way. What necrons need more of are teleportation options.
Veil of Darkness should not be one use, Gate of Infinity should be an ability, not a stratagem, Translocation Crypt should not be faction locked, and there should be some teleporter unit that instantly moves necrons from one teleporter to another. A race that has mastery over time and space should not travel around in a slow metal box like a bunch of savages.

Make basic gauss weapons anti-tank. Maybe something like "+1 damage on a roll of a 6 to wound", or just rip off DZC and give gauss weapons the scourge plasma rifle rule, that allows them to combine hits into stronger hits.

Off the top of my head:

- RPs needs to change. I like the *idea* of the current mechanic but it just doesn't work in practise. How about something like:

Resurrection Protocols:
'Each time a model with this special rule dies, put it on its side (or keep a tally of how many died in each squad). If the last model in a squad dies, place a counter to mark that spot. If an enemy model touches the counter it is removed. At the beginning of each of your turns, roll a dice for each dead model with this rule. For each roll of 5+, you may place that model back in coherency with its original squad. If the squad was wiped out, instead put the first model back on the marker for that squad and then place subsequent models in coherency with it. No model may be placed within 3" of an enemy unit. If any model cannot be placed for any reason, it is treated as having failed its roll. Models that fail their rolls cannot return to play for the remainder of the game, except via a Resurrection Orb.

(I know it's not phrased brilliantly, but hopefully you get the idea)

Also, Resurrection Orbs:
'Once per game, a model with a Resurrection Orb may choose to activate it instead of shooting. Pick a unit with the Resurrection Protocols rule within 6" of the bearer. Each slain model in that unit (including any models that have previously failed their Resurrection Protocols roll) may immediately attempt to return, following the normal rules for Resurrection Protocols.'


- Part of the benefit of the above would be that Necrons don't need to use max-size squads anymore. Which would be very useful, given the nature of detachments in 8th.

- As others have mentioned, Necrons are really lacking in anti-vehicle firepower. I think the real problem is that Gauss is supposed to fulfil this role but the current rules don't allow for that. AP-1 on S4 weapons just isn't enough. Not sure what the best solution would be, honestly. Maybe have Gauss do extra damage to vehicles?

- Piddling movement combined with few short-range (or even melee) weapons. Yeah.

- Anti-synergy. I think the Destroyer Lord is the best example of this. He's a melee HQ who is only able to buff a single ranged unit with mid-long range weapons. Genius.

- So many of their units/weapons just seem to have no meaningful role. Lychguard seem to be bodyguard units, yet Necrons don't have HQs worth protecting - especially not with a ~200pt unit. And if they're supposed to be an offensive melee unit, then why are they stuck footslogging across the table with 5" of movement?

There was an almost identical thread a few months ago, most of which is covered in the above posts.

I'd like to see all Gauss weapons double their app on a natural roll of a 6, with heavy Gauss cannons just doing a mortal wound instead. Mortal wounds for all Gauss weapons sounds great, but I think it's a tough sell. This way it's restricted to the most expensive Gauss weapon, with the rest just upping their anti armour.

The change that lots of people have mentioned is making Tesla destructors damage 2. Goes a long way to fixing annihilation barges and scythes in one go.

Lots of changes to rp have been mentioned. The most commonly discussed option is just copying death guard fnp. Seems to crush the character of the rule to me. My favorite idea so far is to only allow rp on models killed in the last player turn, but allow a roll for wiped out units. Then the res orb can let you roll for the entire unit.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
I recently saw a game where Orks out shot a Necron army. I think Necrons have the same problem as marines but don't have as much access to anti-tank weapons. I think they should add a mortal wound against vehicle keyword on a 6 to wound to all their gauss weapons. The point reduction issue is always brought up but I think the Reanimation protocol or We'll be Back rules should be where they address their durability. I still think I laughed for 5 minutes about that 2k game where Orks out shot a decent looking Necron list. Hilarious!

Well orks are top teir now so not the best example. Orks outshoot a lot of armies now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

momerathe wrote:
if you're really worried about balancing resurrection protocols, just make it a 5+ FNP.

Apart from that, everyone else has it covered.
* Everything is too expensive
* Limited or unreliable anti-tank
* slow, short range, no functional transports

Basically yes.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

momerathe wrote:
if you're really worried about balancing resurrection protocols, just make it a 5+ FNP.

Congrats, you just made robot deathguard and got rid of the gimmick that made necrons necrons.
There should be FNP somewhere in the army, but it shouldn't replace RP.

I did say "if". There is a general opinion that RP is hard to balance because it's strong in low point games and weak at high points - I don't think any amount of futzing around at the edges is going to make that go away.

No conventional transports is a design element, and it should stay that way. What necrons need more of are teleportation options.

By "transport" I mean Monoliths and Night scythes. They should be able to, you know, work.

Except they do work though?
The problem with monoliths is that you can't deploy troops out of them as soon as they arrive. Otherwise the transport feature works fine.
Night scythes and monoliths were FAQ'd to behave like transports.

I've found that using some super glue with a little spray of zip kicker for those annoying arm joints works pretty well.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Over-Priced infantry
No cheap multi-damage sources
Short Ranged Shooting Still (24 Inches)
RP can by bypassed via target selection and priority
Vehicles being T6, 4+ armor, but very expensive
Anti-Vehicle firepower is very expensive, and most of it is either 1 shot, or on a d6 shots.
Lack of Cheap Screens
Almost no recourse against psyker-heavy armies
No psychic phase presence.
Flyers are completely unplayable
Transports are all broken.

Spot on mate.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except they do work though?
The problem with monoliths is that you can't deploy troops out of them as soon as they arrive. Otherwise the transport feature works fine.
Night scythes and monoliths were FAQ'd to behave like transports.

A big issue with Monoliths and Night Scythes as far as the transport rules go is characters. You can't really use characters effectively if you're going to be transporting stuff. It's why the Veil is so much better for that. A single infantry character counting as your 1 unit for deployment for a Monolith for that turn is pretty crazy.

Darsath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except they do work though?
The problem with monoliths is that you can't deploy troops out of them as soon as they arrive. Otherwise the transport feature works fine.
Night scythes and monoliths were FAQ'd to behave like transports.

A big issue with Monoliths and Night Scythes as far as the transport rules go is characters. You can't really use characters effectively if you're going to be transporting stuff. It's why the Veil is so much better for that. A single infantry character counting as your 1 unit for deployment for a Monolith for that turn is pretty crazy.

Ah right, they are unit based as opposed to model based like the other transports. Ok, that is a little bit different.

1. Rework of reanimation protocols. The ability is entirely within your opponents control. If it was working as intended, I think most of our infantry would be priced fine. If GW can't find a way to balance it at higher point games, change it to a 5+++ instead, like Death Guard, so there is at least some guaranteed throughput.

2. Anti-tank. Outside of Destroyers(24") and EP, we have no reliable AT. DDA at 193 points is too volatile for D6 shots and D6 damage. A change to 2D3 shots would be more appropriate. Or even bring back some form of the mortal wound on 6s with gauss weapons

3. 24" range. This is related to 1 and 2, tbh. If they up the survivability, then 24"range is fine. If we have more reliable weapons outside 24", then this is fine. But as it stands without either, it snowballs into a lower tier faction that can't soup these shortcomings.


Edit: I realize I just regurgitated most of what was already said. Glad we're on the same page, at least!

Darsath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except they do work though?
The problem with monoliths is that you can't deploy troops out of them as soon as they arrive. Otherwise the transport feature works fine.
Night scythes and monoliths were FAQ'd to behave like transports.

A big issue with Monoliths and Night Scythes as far as the transport rules go is characters. You can't really use characters effectively if you're going to be transporting stuff. It's why the Veil is so much better for that. A single infantry character counting as your 1 unit for deployment for a Monolith for that turn is pretty crazy.

Moreover, if you want to deepstrike the monolith (and you do, because it's so slow) you units can't disembark until turn 3 at the earliest.

Don't make it FNP!

Doing that sucks the remaining theme and feel of the army and would really not align with the lore.

Make RP more common, or allow Spyders to help, like they used to, just don't make it FNP

Question regarding Monoliths (as I only have the Index). Is it true that you can't teleport models already on the table? I played Necrons in 3rd and 4th, and the Portal ability back then was just awesome.

momerathe wrote:

Darsath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except they do work though?
The problem with monoliths is that you can't deploy troops out of them as soon as they arrive. Otherwise the transport feature works fine.
Night scythes and monoliths were FAQ'd to behave like transports.

A big issue with Monoliths and Night Scythes as far as the transport rules go is characters. You can't really use characters effectively if you're going to be transporting stuff. It's why the Veil is so much better for that. A single infantry character counting as your 1 unit for deployment for a Monolith for that turn is pretty crazy.

Moreover, if you want to deepstrike the monolith (and you do, because it's so slow) you units can't disembark until turn 3 at the earliest.

Actually, you'll only be able to disembark on turn 3. You can't bring it down 'till turn 2 if held in deepstrike, and no reserves allowed from turn 4 onwards.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Question regarding Monoliths (as I only have the Index). Is it true that you can't teleport models already on the table? I played Necrons in 3rd and 4th, and the Portal ability back then was just awesome.

You can, but only with a stratagem, and you can't use it to drag your units out of combat.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Question regarding Monoliths (as I only have the Index). Is it true that you can't teleport models already on the table? I played Necrons in 3rd and 4th, and the Portal ability back then was just awesome.

You can teleport a unit already on the board if you spend a command point for the stratagem.