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Made in jp
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger





Mihara, Japan

So just picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 03:01:17


The only thing better than a good nights sleep, is two good nights sleep. 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

Basically LD8. The sergeant in the squad will always be one of the last, and LD7(Usually 8) + rerolls + MSU, means you'll probably almost never take morale causalities. I can't remember the last time I saw a marine die to morale.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Yes, an Imperial Guard Infantry Squad has the same leadership as a Death Company squad.

Welcome to 8th edition.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 jobalisk wrote:
So judt picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?


Basically Morale is a lot more deadly in this edition, and marines are still absolute beasts when it comes to the morale game. LD 7 is perfectly fine for them!
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




What Sir Heckington said. Sergeant is leadership 8, and Space Marine get to re-roll Morale. It works well enough for what it represents.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Sir Heckington wrote:
Basically LD8. The sergeant in the squad will always be one of the last, and LD7(Usually 8) + rerolls + MSU, means you'll probably almost never take morale causalities. I can't remember the last time I saw a marine die to morale.


I can. Marines lose guys to morale to me all the time. I can safely rely on them losing guys to morale.

The best part is when they reroll that "4" into a "6", and it wipes the squad. ATSKNF is probably the biggest insult to marines in 8th edition. If we're being honest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 23:48:48


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Because Morale is fundamentally different. If you're losing enough Marines in a single turn to force a Morale test you've done something wrong. I just had a game against Marines not two hours ago and the entire game I forced two Morale tests, one passed and one re-rolled into a pass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 23:49:30


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Marmatag wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
Basically LD8. The sergeant in the squad will always be one of the last, and LD7(Usually 8) + rerolls + MSU, means you'll probably almost never take morale causalities. I can't remember the last time I saw a marine die to morale.


I can. Marines lose guys to morale to me all the time.

The best part is when they reroll that "4" into a "6", and it wipes the squad. ATSKNF is probably the biggest insult to marines in 8th edition. If we're being honest.


2 Dice and picking the lowest would probably make a better rule, and also make morale faster aswell.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Morale is fundamentally different. If you're losing enough Marines in a single turn to force a Morale test you've done something wrong. I just had a game against Marines not two hours ago and the entire game I forced two Morale tests, one passed and one re-rolled into a pass.


I do play Dark Eldar, so when i drop their morale from 8 to 6, it doesn't take much to force a loss.

Meanwhile, armies like guard and orks just pay to autopass because they can afford it.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Personally, I think it levels the playing field a fair bit better, it was always annoying in previous editions where morale effectively meant jack-all for loyalist marines. Now they have to consider whether to MSU but forgo maximizing certain stratagem benefits/equiment or going full ham with a bigger unit.
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

 Marmatag wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
Basically LD8. The sergeant in the squad will always be one of the last, and LD7(Usually 8) + rerolls + MSU, means you'll probably almost never take morale causalities. I can't remember the last time I saw a marine die to morale.


I can. Marines lose guys to morale to me all the time. I can safely rely on them losing guys to morale.

The best part is when they reroll that "4" into a "6", and it wipes the squad. ATSKNF is probably the biggest insult to marines in 8th edition. If we're being honest.


Really? I mean, no one runs marines squad really much, but if they do, it's MSU. I do agree it should be 2d6 take the lowest, but I rarely see morale issues in this game.


Why night lords are so poop.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Marmatag wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Morale is fundamentally different. If you're losing enough Marines in a single turn to force a Morale test you've done something wrong. I just had a game against Marines not two hours ago and the entire game I forced two Morale tests, one passed and one re-rolled into a pass.


I do play Dark Eldar, so when i drop their morale from 8 to 6, it doesn't take much to force a loss.

Meanwhile, armies like guard and orks just pay to autopass because they can afford it.
Wow, lowering a units Leadership makes them more vulnerable to Morale? Unbelievable Jeff!

I fully agree that ATSKNF should be Lowest of 2D6

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/27 23:53:30


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Marmatag wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Morale is fundamentally different. If you're losing enough Marines in a single turn to force a Morale test you've done something wrong. I just had a game against Marines not two hours ago and the entire game I forced two Morale tests, one passed and one re-rolled into a pass.


I do play Dark Eldar, so when i drop their morale from 8 to 6, it doesn't take much to force a loss.

Meanwhile, armies like guard and orks just pay to autopass because they can afford it.


Frankly, maybe guard do since they actually don't have that many stratagems worth eating CP. But for Orks, with our recent codex, are so CP hungry, that using the 2CP morale stratagem is a real choice. Typically, its more to save a boyz mob so we can bring it back for 3CP's, and that's assuming we have that many left by then. Otherwise we have to mitigate it through mob rule (not guaranteed, depending on placement) or a Warboss smacking them in the head (which is also placement dependent and can end up killing the last few guys if you're unlucky).
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






If you're having issues, UM gives them Ld 9 for normal squads. Nearby Chaplain will give them 10. Most effective is to take the Relic Banner for auto-pass, or Combat Squad/take min sized squads and it won't be an issue either.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Grimskul wrote:
Personally, I think it levels the playing field a fair bit better, it was always annoying in previous editions where morale effectively meant jack-all for loyalist marines. Now they have to consider whether to MSU but forgo maximizing certain stratagem benefits/equiment or going full ham with a bigger unit.


I probably fall into this camp. I mean, you could probably make the case that, according to fluff, only a few armies in the game ever really need to worry about morale. Every flavor of space marine, 'nids, drugged-up/pain-high drukhari, war masked craftworlders, bizarre harlequins, sufficiently numerous orkz, and brainwashed stealer cultists can all probably be argued to be sufficiently brave, mindless, or disciplined to not really have to worry about morale. It would arguably make more sense to make morale a special rule for a handful of armies, but then creating rules in other books to interact with it would get weird.

So if we're assuming that morale should be part of the game at all, it's nice that half the armies in the game (the astartes half) don't just ignore it like they used to. I feel like they struck a decent balance on making horde armies "fearless" but only to a point. Orkz don't have to worry about morale, but only at first. A couple of turns into the game, and they'll have taken enough wounds here and there for morale to suddenly become a consideration again. Similarly, 'nids make you shoot the synapse bugs if you want to play the morale game, but then they lose bodies en masse once you manage that. Much better than the bad old days of, 'Lol, You lost a fraction of your squad, and now a couple of hundred points are running in the wrong direction."


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because Morale is fundamentally different. If you're losing enough Marines in a single turn to force a Morale test you've done something wrong. I just had a game against Marines not two hours ago and the entire game I forced two Morale tests, one passed and one re-rolled into a pass.


I have often lost 4-5 dudes to shoting and then failed a morale test only to see my last termintor or justicar go puff from failing Ld. Ld7 is ok for armies with 60-80 models on the table, or those that have 20-40man sized squads. when an army is full of high cost elite dudes, that are supposed to kill demons nude as part of their aspirant training, it is stupid to lose them to a Ld roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If you're having issues, UM gives them Ld 9 for normal squads. Nearby Chaplain will give them 10. Most effective is to take the Relic Banner for auto-pass, or Combat Squad/take min sized squads and it won't be an issue either.


How do you find the points to run chaplains, ancients etc ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 00:57:01


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

IG also went down in Ld. A basic guardsman is Ld 6. They had been Ld7 since, at least, 2nd edition. I think with the new morale system they took the opportunity to change some Ld values.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Karol wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If you're having issues, UM gives them Ld 9 for normal squads. Nearby Chaplain will give them 10. Most effective is to take the Relic Banner for auto-pass, or Combat Squad/take min sized squads and it won't be an issue either.


How do you find the points to run chaplains, ancients etc ?


I don't run a Chaplain, though it'd be nice to feel like I could.

The Ancient is another matter, the Relic Banner becomes almost a must-take in certain lists. Weapons firing again as they die is fantastic.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I understand how the banner works for loyalist marines, and that with their good special weapons it is actually useful, unlike a GK shoting with a stormbolter. My question was about the points. To fit an ancient in to a marine army you would have to run scouts as troops, or not Gulliman as warlord.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

When you already don't run guilliman it's easy peasy!

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Karol wrote:
I understand how the banner works for loyalist marines, and that with their good special weapons it is actually useful, unlike a GK shoting with a stormbolter. My question was about the points. To fit an ancient in to a marine army you would have to run scouts as troops, or not Gulliman as warlord.


Or just have a meh list

I run a Primaris ancient with an assault hellblaster squad and it works pretty decent provided something gets in that 24" sweet spot.

But as for the rest of the list it's touch and go


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sir Heckington wrote:
When you already don't run guilliman it's easy peasy!


It feels like GW is trying to remove him until they can revamp him

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 01:23:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Marmatag wrote:
Sir Heckington wrote:
Basically LD8. The sergeant in the squad will always be one of the last, and LD7(Usually 8) + rerolls + MSU, means you'll probably almost never take morale causalities. I can't remember the last time I saw a marine die to morale.


I can. Marines lose guys to morale to me all the time. I can safely rely on them losing guys to morale.

The best part is when they reroll that "4" into a "6", and it wipes the squad. ATSKNF is probably the biggest insult to marines in 8th edition. If we're being honest.


If you're running more that five Marines in a squad you're probably doing it wrong. I don't think I've made more than two morale checks since 8th dropped, although that's because 5-man Marine squads just evaporate so fast.

   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

It feels like GW is trying to remove him


Ha

If only.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Karol wrote:
I understand how the banner works for loyalist marines, and that with their good special weapons it is actually useful, unlike a GK shoting with a stormbolter. My question was about the points. To fit an ancient in to a marine army you would have to run scouts as troops, or not Gulliman as warlord.


Well I don't run Guilliman and don't usually take scouts. So there ya go I guess?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 jobalisk wrote:
So judt picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?

Everyone's ld went down across the board thanks to the way the new morale system works. IG squads for example are ld 6 with Sarge's being 7, same for our Stormtroopers.

Once you see how morale works in game you'll realize it's not a big deal, but you will see marines run sometimes, especially in big squads. I don't think I've ever seen more than one run though, even in instances where a squad took 80% casualties in a single turn.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 jobalisk wrote:
So judt picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?

Everyone's ld went down across the board thanks to the way the new morale system works. IG squads for example are ld 6 with Sarge's being 7, same for our Stormtroopers.

Once you see how morale works in game you'll realize it's not a big deal, but you will see marines run sometimes, especially in big squads. I don't think I've ever seen more than one run though, even in instances where a squad took 80% casualties in a single turn.


I've said this before but I think every unit could lose a point of Ld. Most of the time it's a non issue.

Picking on fire warriors they have Ld7 iirc but because of bonding knife ritual they auto pass on sixes which effectively makes them Ld 8(with the free Shas'ui)

Leadership is in a weird grey area where it only sometimes matters.
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 jobalisk wrote:
So judt picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?


As others have mentioned, Leadership works differently in this edition compared to previous ones. LD 8 is actually above average and with ATSKNF I've seen very few marines fail LD tests over dozens of games.


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Ld 8. Lose 4 guys and you need to roll 5 after reroll to lose last guy. No big deal

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 jobalisk wrote:
So judt picked up a copy of eighth ed rules and saw this, why!?


Because it's a different game, that's why. I mean, in 40k 8th edition an Imperial Guardsman has Ld 6, but in Infinity a regular line troop has WIP 10; that's about as relevant a comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/28 09:04:31


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Nerf regular line troops!

Whatever that is.

I think leadership is the best it has been since I started playing in 5th. It actually matters for all factions, even if you don't actually lose models to it that often. Horde units neither get a free pass nor free fail, elite units can be hurt by it but rarely are.

I think I have not lost more than one plague marine to moral so far, and those don't have ATSKNF. The only time I saw more than one loyalist marines run for the hills was when their player was trying to save a special weapon and took down the sergant as casualty. Otherwise, failing a moral test on a roll of 4 would mean a minimum of 5 casualties - implying that there were more than 5 models in that unit in the first place.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
 
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