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So this has been bugging me for a while. It seems to me, not having read much official fiction but reading a lot of Lexicanum and listening to lore videos, that Abbaddon is much stronger in-lore than on the tabletop. On tabletop, he's roughly on a tier with Calgar or Celestine, or maybe a little bit stronger, but with proper use of strategems and a little lucky dice rolling they can take him. But I've seen people talking about how he would absolutely trash Calgar if the two fought in-lore. So what are the things about Abbaddon's personal strength which are not represented on tabletop? I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with Drachnyen, which seems much stronger in-lore than just an extra D6 attacks.

This is not about his capabilities as a leader, which has far as I can tell in 8th edition are well-represented by his +2CP and re-roll hits aura.

He is an absolute powerhouse, he has the mark of all 4 gods, a Deamon weapon with the echo of the first murder (that nearly killed the emperor), is a peerless warrior prior to chaos even coming near him, traveled the eye extensively prior to founding the black legion, founded the black legion, through means unknown forced All of the Deamon primarchs to do his bidding (kyons words), United all of the shattered legions (for a time).

Not bad for a fella with no arms

 Formosa wrote:
He is an absolute powerhouse, he has the mark of all 4 gods, a Deamon weapon with the echo of the first murder (that nearly killed the emperor), is a peerless warrior prior to chaos even coming near him, traveled the eye extensively prior to founding the black legion, founded the black legion, through means unknown forced All of the Deamon primarchs to do his bidding (kyons words), United all of the shattered legions (for a time).

Not bad for a fella with no arms

See, that's why he needs a new high-detail plastic model. Much as I have enjoyed it, we gotta kill that meme XD

Actually on that note, does chaos actually make its followers stronger, apart from those it irrevocably feths up (rubrics, plague marines) or those that achieve daemonhood? I seem to recall that being a thing in 4th, but that was back when I was a kid so I don't remember that much.

It depends. Abaddon is a badass among badasses, a peerless warrior in an entire faction of peerless warriors. Like, look at the kind of crap the other major Chaos marines like Ahriman and Kharn do and think about how Abaddon is stronger than them and demands more respect.

Naturally, this all falls apart the moment he's up against an Ultramarine because there's no getting around protagonist power.

 Danielle Rae wrote:
See, that's why he needs a new high-detail plastic model. Much as I have enjoyed it, we gotta kill that meme XD

Absolutely! I doubt anyone would disagree. A lot of people ridicule Abaddon, but I don't think anybody actively enjoys how lame he often comes across. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that his new model might come relatively soon either. What with the Space Marines "spiritual liege" being reborn last weekend, it seems like the baddest "mortal" champion of Chaos getting his some, would be the perfect complement.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 Danielle Rae wrote:
See, that's why he needs a new high-detail plastic model. Much as I have enjoyed it, we gotta kill that meme XD

Absolutely! I doubt anyone would disagree. A lot of people ridicule Abaddon, but I don't think anybody actively enjoys how lame he often comes across. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that his new model might come relatively soon either. What with the Space Marines "spiritual liege" being reborn last weekend, it seems like the baddest "mortal" champion of Chaos getting his some, would be the perfect complement.

Normally I'd expect him to get a model, and there's still a good chance of it, but considering the fact that Black Legion already got a character model out of the Vigilus campaign it would be odd to rerelease Abaddon here.

Well according to lore in the rule book he could shatter a gate that stopped an army with a single blow of Drach'nyen, allowing an army of chaos daemons to feast on the flesh of the kromarch.

He's supposed to be physically much bigger than the average Space Marine and he carries the favour of all 4 Chaos Gods, which has undoubtedly enhanced him further. He also carries what may be the most powerful Daemon weapon in the 40k universe and a Chaos-tainted weapon that once belonged the Gods' favoured champion. Combined with his extensive experience he should be pretty much the most powerful Space Marine in the game.

He's also an excellent strategist, not only in military terms but also politically. He's been playing the 4 Chaos Gods off against each other for 10,000 years and so far seems to have the better part of that deal. The only reason I can think of that he doesn't have a new model yet is that GW is waiting for a bigger release of CSM to make him the centrepiece model.

he is so powerful in the lore because he is chaos represent in human form. if you want to read about him, its worth looking at the heresy novels featuring him, and ADB novels, which chart his rise as chaos champion after the heresy. they really give his character a lot of depth.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
he is so powerful in the lore because he is chaos represent in human form. if you want to read about him, its worth looking at the heresy novels featuring him, and ADB novels, which chart his rise as chaos champion after the heresy. they really give his character a lot of depth.

On that note I frikkin love the voice the narrator gives him in Horus Rising. It always sounds like he's simultaneously overflowing with repressed aggression and yet still 100% in control.

He's too powerful for Chaos' own good.

He is Mr Lynchpin. The Head Honcho. The only thing capable of uniting the Chaos Forces into a cohesive whole with minimal infighting.

Take him out, and things may get a bit easier for The Imperium, as Chaos goes a bit Orky and starts biffing itself in the face. Or potentially a lot worse, as the forces scatter and start breaking stuff with no unifying rhyme or reason.

 Danielle Rae wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
he is so powerful in the lore because he is chaos represent in human form. if you want to read about him, its worth looking at the heresy novels featuring him, and ADB novels, which chart his rise as chaos champion after the heresy. they really give his character a lot of depth.

On that note I frikkin love the voice the narrator gives him in Horus Rising. It always sounds like he's simultaneously overflowing with repressed aggression and yet still 100% in control.

I cant listen to the audiobooks. after reading books for so long, I cant do with the accents and voices the narrators put on. I tried to listen to one while painting and had to switch back to music.

 Danielle Rae wrote:

See, that's why he needs a new high-detail plastic model.

They just released his model in Blackstone Fortress

Granted GW calls that model something else and gave him a hammer for some reason instead of his sword and lightning claw, but that's nothing a quite bitz-swap would fix.

-

The most powerful individual on the side of Chaos that isn't a Daemon Primarch or a particularly powerful Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince in terms of fighting power. In terms of overall influence in the current era he's number one.

 Danielle Rae wrote:
So this has been bugging me for a while. It seems to me, not having read much official fiction but reading a lot of Lexicanum and listening to lore videos, that Abbaddon is much stronger in-lore than on the tabletop. On tabletop, he's roughly on a tier with Calgar or Celestine, or maybe a little bit stronger, but with proper use of strategems and a little lucky dice rolling they can take him. But I've seen people talking about how he would absolutely trash Calgar if the two fought in-lore. So what are the things about Abbaddon's personal strength which are not represented on tabletop? I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with Drachnyen, which seems much stronger in-lore than just an extra D6 attacks.

This is not about his capabilities as a leader, which has far as I can tell in 8th edition are well-represented by his +2CP and re-roll hits aura.

Well he has fought nearly every challenger to his throne for 10,000 years, which not all lords do, he didn't do too bad against the fight with Kharn as well, so he's no slouch, plus he killed the cloned Horus, though it was a clone. Though its only in recent lore where Abaddon has become a serious badass, before that he was kind of a scooby do villain, which I'm glad he's not doing well as its stupid to have the leader of the chaos forces in the materium be so goofy.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Danielle Rae wrote:
So this has been bugging me for a while. It seems to me, not having read much official fiction but reading a lot of Lexicanum and listening to lore videos, that Abbaddon is much stronger in-lore than on the tabletop. On tabletop, he's roughly on a tier with Calgar or Celestine, or maybe a little bit stronger, but with proper use of strategems and a little lucky dice rolling they can take him. But I've seen people talking about how he would absolutely trash Calgar if the two fought in-lore. So what are the things about Abbaddon's personal strength which are not represented on tabletop? I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with Drachnyen, which seems much stronger in-lore than just an extra D6 attacks.

This is not about his capabilities as a leader, which has far as I can tell in 8th edition are well-represented by his +2CP and re-roll hits aura.

Well he has fought nearly every challenger to his throne for 10,000 years, which not all lords do, he didn't do too bad against the fight with Kharn as well, so he's no slouch, plus he killed the cloned Horus, though it was a clone. Though its only in recent lore where Abaddon has become a serious badass, before that he was kind of a scooby do villain, which I'm glad he's not doing well as its stupid to have the leader of the chaos forces in the materium be so goofy.

Well if you want to get devious it could be he actually is a total tool and a complete b3wb as a leader and that's how the csm want it. They don't want a strong competent leader that can force his will on all the CSM legions, they like their independence too much. So they all conspire to keep him in the lead role because he can't stop them from going their own way most of the time.

I don't actually advocate that theory but it is a kind of plot twist I could see being raised.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Danielle Rae wrote:
So this has been bugging me for a while. It seems to me, not having read much official fiction but reading a lot of Lexicanum and listening to lore videos, that Abbaddon is much stronger in-lore than on the tabletop. On tabletop, he's roughly on a tier with Calgar or Celestine, or maybe a little bit stronger, but with proper use of strategems and a little lucky dice rolling they can take him. But I've seen people talking about how he would absolutely trash Calgar if the two fought in-lore. So what are the things about Abbaddon's personal strength which are not represented on tabletop? I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with Drachnyen, which seems much stronger in-lore than just an extra D6 attacks.

This is not about his capabilities as a leader, which has far as I can tell in 8th edition are well-represented by his +2CP and re-roll hits aura.

Well he has fought nearly every challenger to his throne for 10,000 years, which not all lords do, he didn't do too bad against the fight with Kharn as well, so he's no slouch, plus he killed the cloned Horus, though it was a clone. Though its only in recent lore where Abaddon has become a serious badass, before that he was kind of a scooby do villain, which I'm glad he's not doing well as its stupid to have the leader of the chaos forces in the materium be so goofy.

Well if you want to get devious it could be he actually is a total tool and a complete b3wb as a leader and that's how the csm want it. They don't want a strong competent leader that can force his will on all the CSM legions, they like their independence too much. So they all conspire to keep him in the lead role because he can't stop them from going their own way most of the time.

I don't actually advocate that theory but it is a kind of plot twist I could see being raised.

That is ridiculous, the gods need Abaddon, they need a competent leader in the materium, otherwise they'd get rid of him. Other legions are too busy doing their own thing to care about Abaddon especially the ones that have a specific god. The fact that they all work in concert with one another especially after the the great scouring, that he got the legions to do anything together was a miracle, other warbands and legions don't have to lend their help to Abaddon unless the gods directly tell them too or Abaddon is a position to make them, Abaddon doesn't let legions have their own independence, he tries to make them work for him, like the case in the red path. Its absurd to to say he is a bad leader when he had stayed on top for 10,000 years.

That is ridiculous, the gods need Abaddon, they need a competent leader in the materium, otherwise they'd get rid of him. Other legions are too busy doing their own thing to care about Abaddon especially the ones that have a specific god. The fact that they all work in concert with one another especially after the the great scouring, that he got the legions to do anything together was a miracle, other warbands and legions don't have to lend their help to Abaddon unless the gods directly tell them too or Abaddon is a position to make them, Abaddon doesn't let legions have their own independence, he tries to make them work for him, like the case in the red path. Its absurd to to say he is a bad leader when he had stayed on top for 10,000 years.

Are you sure about that?
Tzeentch does not want the imperium gone, since he needs it's corrupt ambitious groups.
Nurgle likes the endless tagnation.
Khorne does not care, virtually, So long there is bloodshed there is bloodshed. Infact he most likely wants the imperium around excactly for the scale that it can provide bloodshed.
Slaanesh: Honestly he get's off on anything so i think he does not care.

Not Online!!! wrote:

That is ridiculous, the gods need Abaddon, they need a competent leader in the materium, otherwise they'd get rid of him. Other legions are too busy doing their own thing to care about Abaddon especially the ones that have a specific god. The fact that they all work in concert with one another especially after the the great scouring, that he got the legions to do anything together was a miracle, other warbands and legions don't have to lend their help to Abaddon unless the gods directly tell them too or Abaddon is a position to make them, Abaddon doesn't let legions have their own independence, he tries to make them work for him, like the case in the red path. Its absurd to to say he is a bad leader when he had stayed on top for 10,000 years.

Are you sure about that?
Tzeentch does not want the imperium gone, since he needs it's corrupt ambitious groups.
Nurgle likes the endless tagnation.
Khorne does not care, virtually, So long there is bloodshed there is bloodshed. Infact he most likely wants the imperium around excactly for the scale that it can provide bloodshed.
Slaanesh: Honestly he get's off on anything so i think he does not care.

They want the Imperium in chains, so they can kill and make them suffer on mass like on daemon planets like in the eye. Yeah they masterminded the HH for no reason at all, if they wanted to keep the Imperium in place then why do they call the Emperor the anatheme and have a daemon destined to kill him, I mean come on. Most planets in the Imperium are peaceful places, where humans get along quite nicely, why would Chaos not want to maximise their suffering...

In lore he's one of the most powerful fighters in the entire setting. Even before the Heresy, he was famous, but afterwards, he's nearly, if not already, Primarch tier. His list of feats is a mile long in the lore. Just to make one example, he defeated Sigismund during the first black crusade, when Abaddon was at his weakest, and Sigismund has always been known as the best duelist and fighter in the entire Space Marine range. He was so powerful, that he was personally chosen by the Emperor as His Champion, challenged and defeated every enemy leader on Terra, and Abaddon even refused to come and face him during the Siege.

So a few thousand years later, Abaddon defeats him and only gets stronger from there. He's currently the default and defacto leader of the Chaos forces despite the prescence of the Daemon Primarchs.

On the table he sucks but in the lore he munches Swarmlords and Avatars for breakfast.

Wasn't Sigismund incredibly old at that point? My understanding was that Abbadon barely won even with a decent advantage over Sigismund in terms of speed etc.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

That is ridiculous, the gods need Abaddon, they need a competent leader in the materium, otherwise they'd get rid of him. Other legions are too busy doing their own thing to care about Abaddon especially the ones that have a specific god. The fact that they all work in concert with one another especially after the the great scouring, that he got the legions to do anything together was a miracle, other warbands and legions don't have to lend their help to Abaddon unless the gods directly tell them too or Abaddon is a position to make them, Abaddon doesn't let legions have their own independence, he tries to make them work for him, like the case in the red path. Its absurd to to say he is a bad leader when he had stayed on top for 10,000 years.

Are you sure about that?
Tzeentch does not want the imperium gone, since he needs it's corrupt ambitious groups.
Nurgle likes the endless tagnation.
Khorne does not care, virtually, So long there is bloodshed there is bloodshed. Infact he most likely wants the imperium around excactly for the scale that it can provide bloodshed.
Slaanesh: Honestly he get's off on anything so i think he does not care.

They want the Imperium in chains, so they can kill and make them suffer on mass like on daemon planets like in the eye. Yeah they masterminded the HH for no reason at all, if they wanted to keep the Imperium in place then why do they call the Emperor the anatheme and have a daemon destined to kill him, I mean come on. Most planets in the Imperium are peaceful places, where humans get along quite nicely, why would Chaos not want to maximise their suffering...

Simply put, they lied.

See the warp touches all realities, and the gods touch all realities that he warp touches, so losing the 40k universe, as with the warhammer universe before it, would not affect the gods in any meaningful way, they have infinite variations of realities in which to feed.

This part is conjecture: I think the gods are part of a greater force, an extra dimensional force that manifests itself in all realities in some form or other, just as realities are created by the world dragon (AOS) this entity (call it the primordial annihilator) destroys them but unlike the big four it doesn’t really have sentience, it just is.

Oddly enough the fluff actually supports this theory

I've heard his power is over 9000.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I've heard his power is over 9000.

*Primarneus angrily rips out and crushes his bionic eye in the Gauntlets of Ultramar*

nareik wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:
I've heard his power is over 9000.

*Primarneus angrily rips out and crushes his bionic eye in the Gauntlets of Ultramar*

Congratulation, now I want Marneus to grow a mustache.

BTW, I sure hope that if and when they do Abbadon model again, his top-knot will be even more fantastic. I love the fact, that his haircut is mentionned as being his trademark in HH novels.

epronovost wrote:
I sure hope that if and when they do Abbadon model again, his top-knot will be even more fantastic. I love the fact, that his haircut is mentionned as being his trademark in HH novels.

Hahaha, that's great!

@Thread: Abandons story is one of glorious ascension after abysmal failure and humiliation, and that ascension is fueled by profound rage. I believe it's his rage that keeps him from ascending to daemon hood as well. Being a daemon prince would make him a less capable leader, as he would be bound more tightly to the warp. He chooses to remain mortal in order to have his vengeance on the Imperium.

Abaddon follows gansta philosophy;

He keeps it real, and doesn't get it twisted.

Failure to comply to those two principles can in extreme cases lead to daemonhood. His grounding in reality is the fundamental reason he doesn't ascend.

As to the topic of why hasn't Abaddon received a new model?

Consider how far technology has progressed in regards to sculpting animated components; wyrdfire and hair especially.

Abaddon can only receive a new plastic model when the technology can do REAL justice to his topknot and daemonic energy sword.

 Formosa wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

That is ridiculous, the gods need Abaddon, they need a competent leader in the materium, otherwise they'd get rid of him. Other legions are too busy doing their own thing to care about Abaddon especially the ones that have a specific god. The fact that they all work in concert with one another especially after the the great scouring, that he got the legions to do anything together was a miracle, other warbands and legions don't have to lend their help to Abaddon unless the gods directly tell them too or Abaddon is a position to make them, Abaddon doesn't let legions have their own independence, he tries to make them work for him, like the case in the red path. Its absurd to to say he is a bad leader when he had stayed on top for 10,000 years.

Are you sure about that?
Tzeentch does not want the imperium gone, since he needs it's corrupt ambitious groups.
Nurgle likes the endless tagnation.
Khorne does not care, virtually, So long there is bloodshed there is bloodshed. Infact he most likely wants the imperium around excactly for the scale that it can provide bloodshed.
Slaanesh: Honestly he get's off on anything so i think he does not care.

They want the Imperium in chains, so they can kill and make them suffer on mass like on daemon planets like in the eye. Yeah they masterminded the HH for no reason at all, if they wanted to keep the Imperium in place then why do they call the Emperor the anatheme and have a daemon destined to kill him, I mean come on. Most planets in the Imperium are peaceful places, where humans get along quite nicely, why would Chaos not want to maximise their suffering...

Simply put, they lied.

See the warp touches all realities, and the gods touch all realities that he warp touches, so losing the 40k universe, as with the warhammer universe before it, would not affect the gods in any meaningful way, they have infinite variations of realities in which to feed.

This part is conjecture: I think the gods are part of a greater force, an extra dimensional force that manifests itself in all realities in some form or other, just as realities are created by the world dragon (AOS) this entity (call it the primordial annihilator) destroys them but unlike the big four it doesn’t really have sentience, it just is.

Oddly enough the fluff actually supports this theory

No, 'they lied' is also complete conjecture and its completely wrong. a) they gods compete against one another so they aren't flippant about the few souls in the Imperium and b) why would they so stringently interfere with mankind and be so set on killing the Emperor and destroying the Imperium. That they want to enslave mankind is fact its established in the lore. Even logically, think about it if you were right then on daemon worlds they'd allow humans to make tribes and constantly war, but they don't they are slaves and they are made to fight every day in area's in Khorne worlds, Slaanesh uses them as torture slaves etc. Why would they let mankind have any power when they can just enslave them and 'make' them do what chaos wants.

I may be a minority but I think abaddon needs a new haircut, as do all the chaos characters. Maybe a High fade psychobilly slicked back pomp. I feel like abaddon wouldn't waste time shaving round a plume of hair and wrapping it.

I thought his hairdo was related to Cthonian culture? It'd be a crime to chop the top in a new model.