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Made in nz
Fresh-Faced New User






Okay this is just a bit of fun for those of us feeling salty about the Primaris and the shift in fluff tones. If you found yourself at the helm of things and were to write the Primaris out or at least stop their progression, how would you do it?

   
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






This is the only answer-



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

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If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Redo them as a new set of equipment, take out the Reivers, add some of them going renegade or something and make Cawl into a brain in a jar. I like jar brains.

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The easiest option would be to progress the fluff a little further forward. Turns out Cawl's tinkering missed some crucial details, and after a certain amount of time or when subjected to certain environmental factors, the Primaris modifications become increasingly unstable. Primaris Marines all turn into goo, or are purged, and their equipment is modified and repurposed for some slightly less stupidly-huge resculpted Marines that fluffwise would be more modest changes to the Marine enhancement regimen, but would ultimately just be truscale marines without making them ridiculously huge giants.

This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.

 
   
Made in nz
Fresh-Faced New User





 insaniak wrote:
The easiest option would be to progress the fluff a little further forward. Turns out Cawl's tinkering missed some crucial details, and after a certain amount of time or when subjected to certain environmental factors, the Primaris modifications become increasingly unstable. Primaris Marines all turn into goo, or are purged, and their equipment is modified and repurposed for some slightly less stupidly-huge resculpted Marines that fluffwise would be more modest changes to the Marine enhancement regimen, but would ultimately just be truscale marines without making them ridiculously huge giants.

This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.


I'd be on board with that. I also like the idea of some 'naive' flawed aspect to the Primaris that makes them more susceptible to corruption in the end, which screws the Imperium over big-time giving Chaos a big window of opportunity. Regular marines have to try clean up the mess and retake their rightful place in the setting as the elite. Primaris that stay loyal become a rare, mistrusted, almost hunted down breed that turn berserker always trying to prove themselves.

   
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Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





UK

Make them like Clone Wars clonetroopers. Very very good soldiers, but with a greatly increased aging process.

Primaris will live only half as long as Space Marines but be twice as powerful
   
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Half of 'functionally immortal' doesn't really change anything, particularly when Marines are far more likely to die in battle than to push the bounds of old age... So making them better with half the lifespan would still result in them living longer than normal marines...

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 insaniak wrote:
Half of 'functionally immortal' doesn't really change anything, particularly when Marines are far more likely to die in battle than to push the bounds of old age... So making them better with half the lifespan would still result in them living longer than normal marines...

You could just replace the idea of 2x aging with a limited lifespan. For example at around 300 years old Primaris get so unstable they need to go.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





England

Having them "burn out" far faster than regular marines would be a great option fluff wise.
The enhancements that cause them to be stronger than regular marines take there toll and cause Primaris to stuffer from a bunch of medical issues, age faster, develop weird cancers etc ala the thunder warriors.
This then leads to the imperium coming to rely on the good old marines again, with the primaris used as front line cannon fodder.
Cue tragic ending for calgar, having taken the conversion process to prove himself, ends up in a dreadnought as his organs all fail.

it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it. 
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

a flaw in their DNA turns them all into peace loving hippies. chapter masters execute them en masse, and give the armour to their old marines. done.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr BugBear wrote:

Okay this is just a bit of fun for those of us feeling salty about the Primaris and the shift in fluff tones. If you found yourself at the helm of things and were to write the Primaris out or at least stop their progression, how would you do it?


During the Plague War, Nurgle infected the geneseed of many Primaris marines. This ultimately causes a mass rebellion event amongst their ranks. Cawl design is put into doubt. Many Space Marine Chapter strat to reject them by fear of being infiltrated. Their numbers start to decrease while the forces of Chaos gain severeal warband worth of them. Nurgle get's skrewed over by the other gods who all find a way to divert some of the rebellious Primaris their way. The event is now known as the Apostates Rebellion.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 insaniak wrote:
The easiest option would be to progress the fluff a little further forward. Turns out Cawl's tinkering missed some crucial details, and after a certain amount of time or when subjected to certain environmental factors, the Primaris modifications become increasingly unstable. Primaris Marines all turn into goo, or are purged, and their equipment is modified and repurposed for some slightly less stupidly-huge resculpted Marines that fluffwise would be more modest changes to the Marine enhancement regimen, but would ultimately just be truscale marines without making them ridiculously huge giants.

This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.
Agreed. And I'd go a step further and say that all existing Marines now get access to all that sweet wargear/armour. Tactical Marines now have 2Ws as standard (as do CSM) and Bolt rifles, but can also continue to take heavy and Special weapons
Ya know, like 8E SHOULD have started with.

-

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Cawl turned to chaos during gurlyman's 10000 year sleep. The primaris project was tainted and altered. Cawl executes order 66, wipes out majority of loyalist chapters. Ravenguard is now extinct.

The forces of grimdark more or less evens out, and xenos factions begin to align to either imperium or chaos.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 insaniak wrote:
The easiest option would be to progress the fluff a little further forward. Turns out Cawl's tinkering missed some crucial details, and after a certain amount of time or when subjected to certain environmental factors, the Primaris modifications become increasingly unstable. Primaris Marines all turn into goo, or are purged, and their equipment is modified and repurposed for some slightly less stupidly-huge resculpted Marines that fluffwise would be more modest changes to the Marine enhancement regimen, but would ultimately just be truscale marines without making them ridiculously huge giants.

This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.


Basically this. I don't have anything to contribute that wouldn't be the above, said differently.

Extra points for normal-sized Primarchs, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
And I'd go a step further and say that all existing Marines now get access to all that sweet wargear/armour. Tactical Marines now have 2Ws as standard (as do CSM) and Bolt rifles, but can also continue to take heavy and Special weapons
Ya know, like 8E SHOULD have started with.-


No, no, no. Marines are 1W. They don't need to be double-tougher than Aspect Warrior, etc. T4 3+ is good enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 17:53:06


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







"These are all resculpts of existing units. There's nothing to see here. Move along."

(You might need the classic "We've dug up STC printouts of some other cool stuff" for the bits that don't exactly map to old units, but the grav-raider has been in beta with the Custodes for ten thousand years, it was about time they got their heads out of their asses and started mass-producing it.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galef wrote:
And I'd go a step further and say that all existing Marines now get access to all that sweet wargear/armour. Tactical Marines now have 2Ws as standard (as do CSM) and Bolt rifles, but can also continue to take heavy and Special weapons
Ya know, like 8E SHOULD have started with.-


No, no, no. Marines are 1W. They don't need to be double-tougher than Aspect Warrior, etc. T4 3+ is good enough.


T4/3+ hasn't been "good enough" since multiple FOCs and vehicle squadrons brought ordnance spam to 5e, and the loss of separate cover saves/weakening of vehicle armour has just made the problem worse in 8e. 2W isn't "vastly better than the competition" simply because size creep/blast weapon creep has rendered infantry of any size/any statline just about as squishy as any other infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 18:57:26


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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 AnomanderRake wrote:

T4/3+ hasn't been "good enough" since multiple FOCs and vehicle squadrons brought ordnance spam to 5e, and the loss of separate cover saves/weakening of vehicle armour has just made the problem worse in 8e. 2W isn't "vastly better than the competition" simply because size creep/blast weapon creep has rendered infantry of any size/any statline just about as squishy as any other infantry.


I get where you're coming from, but the fix is not making one set of infantry vastly superior to other sets of infantry vs. small arms. Lots of elite infantry suffer for showing up to what are often essentially tank battles. The resulting paradigm makes sense, imo. But I think the "fix" comes more from accepting the paradigm and spending the elite infantry better by using transports and other vehicle support better. Rumor has it the Land Raider will drop in points. I'd rather Space Marines keep their relative parity with other infantry, but benefit from some better vehicle support to operate in the current expected meta. Imo it's more lore-appropriate, anyways.

As the scale of the battle gets bigger, the contribution of the individual trooper gets smaller. The fix shouldn't be to then scale one type of individual trooper up and over all other individual troopers.

This is really off topic for the Background forum, so, apologies for the derail.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Dakka Veteran




 insaniak wrote:
The easiest option would be to progress the fluff a little further forward. Turns out Cawl's tinkering missed some crucial details, and after a certain amount of time or when subjected to certain environmental factors, the Primaris modifications become increasingly unstable. Primaris Marines all turn into goo, or are purged, and their equipment is modified and repurposed for some slightly less stupidly-huge resculpted Marines that fluffwise would be more modest changes to the Marine enhancement regimen, but would ultimately just be truscale marines without making them ridiculously huge giants.

This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.


That's really the best way. Create a flaw in the process that destroys them, rendering the whole lot of them and and the process itself unusable. However, IMO it isn't that "regular" marines are too small, but other races minis are a tad too big.

Dude, don't take away my hulked-out primarchs, thank you.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 insaniak wrote:
Half of 'functionally immortal' doesn't really change anything, particularly when Marines are far more likely to die in battle than to push the bounds of old age... So making them better with half the lifespan would still result in them living longer than normal marines...

You're confusing marines with the Custodes; marines are not functionally immortal.


Anyway, for the actual topic, just squat the minimarines, then just start calling the new marines Space Marines, and pretend this whole embarrassing primaris thing never happened.

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Now that the cat's out of the bag, I personally think the best course of action would be to simply make ALL Marines Primaris. It's dumb for there to be a functional difference between old and new SM, especially on the table top, so making them all the same would kind of allow everyone to move on and pretend it never happened. You get Truesdale marine models which people can use or not as they wish, you get rules that put SM more where they should be relative to the fluff, and you get rid of the relevancy of Primaris lore and turn it into a minor footnote in 40k history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Half of 'functionally immortal' doesn't really change anything, particularly when Marines are far more likely to die in battle than to push the bounds of old age... So making them better with half the lifespan would still result in them living longer than normal marines...

You're confusing marines with the Custodes; marines are not functionally immortal.


Anyway, for the actual topic, just squat the minimarines, then just start calling the new marines Space Marines, and pretend this whole embarrassing primaris thing never happened.


Exactly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/03 22:54:14


 
   
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 Crimson wrote:

You're confusing marines with the Custodes; marines are not functionally immortal.

According to the Horus Heresy books they are.

Either way, there's no mention anywhere of a Marine dying of old age. Dante's over a thousand years old, and still in fighting form.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 insaniak wrote:

According to the Horus Heresy books they are.

That has later been revealed to be a mere in character mistake (it certainly was a writer mistake in the beginning.) They thought that when the marines were new, it was an error.

Either way, there's no mention anywhere of a Marine dying of old age.

There is no mention anywhere of a ratling dying of old age either. OMG; ratlings are immortal!

Dante's over a thousand years old, and still in fighting form.

Which is specifically stated to be because the Blood Angels have longer lifespans than other marines! Which are stated to have a lifespan of two to three times of a mortal man. Ultramarine Cassius was 'old' when nearing four hundred.

This thing has been discussed to death before, this matter is not unclear. Also, off topic.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 insaniak wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

You're confusing marines with the Custodes; marines are not functionally immortal.

According to the Horus Heresy books they are.

Either way, there's no mention anywhere of a Marine dying of old age. Dante's over a thousand years old, and still in fighting form.


And he's specifically very rare for that, even among Blood Angels who are "long lived". If one chapter is long lived, that also means other chapters are not, and it means all of them are finite.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 insaniak wrote:


This would be accompanied by a blurb explaining that the Primarchs being 12-foot tall was just propaganda. Guilliman being so huge would be due to his 'armour' actually being a giant battlesuit, and other Primarchs would be revealed to be closer to Marine size.


Aaaaahhh. Like Lord Ffarquad from Shrek? Massive head but tiny body wrapped up in a massive suit if armour. I'd buy that as an arming diorama

Ooh ooh... I wonder if we could put a Kickstarter together to pay for John Lithgow to do the next audio book starring the big G

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 00:08:31


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 Flinty wrote:

Aaaaahhh. Like Lord Ffarquad from Shrek? Massive head but tiny body wrapped up in a massive suit if armour. I'd buy that as an arming diorama

Guilliman has a tiny head for his body size, compared to a marine. That's just part of the reason the model looks so silly... It's not proportioned the same as a regular marine, so it looks like it's a completely different scale. As it is, the poor guy is awfully skinny if what he's wearing is actually supposed to be armour.

But like the marine lifespan thing, that's also probably wandering off the beaten topic...



It occurs to me that the other way to write Primaris out is to just, you know, write them out. Pretend they never happened. Turn the clock back to before Cawl showed up, and carry on Highlander-style... (Sequels? Noooo, there weren't any sequels. You're thinking of some other movie about immortals cutting off each others' heads... Ooh, look over there!) Shunt the models into an 'Art Scale' collectors series, pretty up the regular marine models a little, and life is golden.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 00:40:53


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 insaniak wrote:

It occurs to me that the other way to write Primaris out is to just, you know, write them out. Pretend they never happened. Turn the clock back to before Cawl showed up, and carry on Highlander-style... (Sequels? Noooo, there weren't any sequels. You're thinking of some other movie about immortals cutting off each others' heads... Ooh, look over there!) Shunt the models into an 'Art Scale' collectors series, pretty up the regular marine models a little, and life is golden.

Agreed, except keep the Primaris models and ditch the old ones, and just pretend marines always looked that. It's just an graphic update and perhaps a slight retcon of some squads' equipment.

   
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 Crimson wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

It occurs to me that the other way to write Primaris out is to just, you know, write them out. Pretend they never happened. Turn the clock back to before Cawl showed up, and carry on Highlander-style... (Sequels? Noooo, there weren't any sequels. You're thinking of some other movie about immortals cutting off each others' heads... Ooh, look over there!) Shunt the models into an 'Art Scale' collectors series, pretty up the regular marine models a little, and life is golden.

Agreed, except keep the Primaris models and ditch the old ones, and just pretend marines always looked that. It's just an graphic update and perhaps a slight retcon of some squads' equipment.


If something is going to happen, this would probably be the best. I would rather they just keep primaris and traditional together. just fix the fluff.
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





Cawl cheated. He didn't develop a new process for making Marines, he just dusted off the Thunder Warrior template. Bigger, stronger, faster...with a shorter lifespan.
Done
   
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I'm calling the order 66 right now. You saw it here first.
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

No rebellions or chaotic primaris: too many marines have already turned, that s not even funny anymore, for an «elite» force...
Love the «they are better but burn faster» idea !

   
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Best thing to do would just change the primaris to just be a new founding with pure geneseed from 30k times, with new handy gear, rather than just marines ++

Just go and update all the marine boxes to reflect the new gear, and that way you don't have to invalidate the old units.

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