Switch Theme:

How does the Ranger Pathfinder Stratagem interact with Dark Reapers or More Dakka?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in au
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





My friend mentioned in jest that he could use the Pathfinders stratagem to force my Orks to only hit them on 6's, which they most likely would anyway. I mentioned I could use More Dakka to make an orks unit succeed on 5's and 6's, to which we both realised the outcome isn't very clear. So the question is, if both stratagems are active, can the Orks hit the rangers on a 5? What about Dark Reapers, who have an ability to hit on a 3+?

I argued that the Orks would be able to hit on a 5 if we used a stack like interpretation of the rules. That is the Pathfinders stratagem would occur and modify the existing rules of the game, then Dakka Dakka Dakka would occur and modify the existing rules again, overriding previous ones. If we continued with this argument then the Pathfinder stratagem would override the Dark Reaper ability and only allow them to hit on 6's. To clarify, the idea is that the most recent effect/ability takes priority.
My friend agreed that Orks would hit on a 5 but for a different reason, his argument was based on the fact that Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! states the hit roll "succeeds". For how this interacts between Rangers and Dark Reapers he wasn't certain.

Furthermore, we investigated the Craftworlds FAQ which discusses the Culexus Assassin interacting with Dark Reapers. This scenario doesn't apply here as the Culexus modifies the users Ballistic Skill but everything I've mentioned is independent of Ballistic Skill.

I'm mostly interested in the result out of curiosity, as regardless of the outcome I doubt my friend will ever bother using the Pathfinders Stratagem against Orks.

I've included the relevant rules below for reference.
PATHFINDERS
Use this Stratagem at the start of an enemy Shooting
phase. Pick an ALAITOC RANGER unit from your army
that is in cover. Attacks that target that unit in this phase
will only hit on rolls of a 6, irrespective of any modifiers.

DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of
6 for an attack with a ranged weapon made
by a model in this unit, that hit roll succeeds
regardless of any modifiers. In addition,
immediately make an additional hit roll against
the same target using the same weapon. These
additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate
any further hit rolls. When firing a weapon
with randomly determined characteristics
(e.g. a bubblechukka), any additional hit rolls
use the same characteristics as the hit roll that
generated the additional hit roll. This ability
does not affect weapons that automatically hit
their target.

MORE DAKKA!
Use this Stratagem before an ORK unit from your army
shoots in your Shooting phase. Until the end of the phase,
that unit’s Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! ability triggers on
unmodified hit rolls of 5 or 6, instead of 6.

Dark Reapers Inescapable Accuracy: Models in this unit always hit on
a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon in the Shooting phase,
regardless of any modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 06:59:35


Lots of pts of Orks
3000 pts of AdMech and punchy-choppy Knights
Ork Shooting Probability feat. Dakka Dakka Dakka, re-rolls, and More Dakka 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





Dark reapers ignore the anti psyker assassin's modifier which is similar to the Pathfinders text from memory, so I'd say it functions the same with other constant to hits.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 kastelen wrote:
Dark reapers ignore the anti psyker assassin's modifier which is similar to the Pathfinders text from memory, so I'd say it functions the same with other constant to hits.


Nope. Assasin has treat BS as 6. That's not same as hitting on 6. Dark reapers ignore the assasin because they don't care do they have BS3 or BS6(which they have due to assasin) as the FAQ specifically mentions. Here the wording is actually same as dark reaper. Always hit on X regardless of modifiers.

Since it's 2 rules with same effect wouldn't it be case of timing which in turn leaves it to active players order(which basically means pathfinder loses every time)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 07:30:18


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 kastelen wrote:
Dark reapers ignore the anti psyker assassin's modifier which is similar to the Pathfinders text from memory, so I'd say it functions the same with other constant to hits.


Not even close.

Culexus says to treat your BS as if it was 6+.

That's VASTLY different from always hitting on 6s.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






In terms of wording, both Dark Reapers and the Pathfinders rules/strat are equal in strength.

In such case as this, im inclined to favor the Pathfinder stratagem, as it is paying a resource (CP) whereas the dark reapers get theirs all the time.

Active vs passive usually goes towards active in a strength check.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Eihnlazer wrote:
In terms of wording, both Dark Reapers and the Pathfinders rules/strat are equal in strength.

In such case as this, im inclined to favor the Pathfinder stratagem, as it is paying a resource (CP) whereas the dark reapers get theirs all the time.

Active vs passive usually goes towards active in a strength check.
Which is irrelevant when it comes to the rules of Warhammer 40k. RaW we have two rules trying to do something at the same time (when a roll to hit happens) thus via the sequencing rule, the player who's turn it is decides the order they are applied. "Strength" of a rule is totally subjective.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Order that they apply does nothing in this case.


Attacker goes first:

I always hit on 3+
You only hit on 6+

Defender goes first:

You only hit on 6+
I always hit on 3+


Just because one spoke last doesn't mean it beats the other.

The rules are literally affecting the same thing in the same way. They are both stating that the hit roll on the dice is a specific number. Neither is modifying the roll. Neither is changing what happens to the dice. Order doesn't matter.


The BRB actually states that when such an instance occurs (rare as that may be) you have a roll off.


My earlier post was just me trying to take a general stance considering all games ever made/written and how such things usually play out. Since neither of the rules are specific about their own strength of operation, its a good thing to consider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 13:03:53


JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






That's actually a reasonable point. While it irks me that GW couldn't write the rules properly to account for this, this situation is one tmir was made for it seems.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: