Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Given the extent to which they interface with their armor would it be fair to consider a space marine a cyborg?

Certainly, in the case of Iron Hands, yes, but for the others? I don't know. It's interesting. I'm trying to think of other uses of interface implants in either fiction or reality and whether they count as cyborgs. Certainly, humans today have implants such as pace makers that don't qualify them as cyborgs by most reckonings, but again, you specified an "interface," so I don't really know.

Halo's Master Chief is often said to be a cyborg and I'm not sure his implants are anywhere near as significant as the Black Carapace.

Also, the Terminator is pretty much entirely a robot with a bit of skin thrown on and he's called a cyborg too, so I guess the qualifying criteria aren't all that stringent.

Other than the sockets for armour interface which are fairly small all implants are organic.

General rule to call something a cyborg is 10% or more organic matter being replaced.

Factory fresh marines you could maybe call bionic

Primaris Marines are pretty clearly cyborgs given their tendons are ripped out and encased in metallic fibers.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Certainly, in the case of Iron Hands, yes, but for the others? I don't know.

Both Calgar and Cassius from UM are mostly machines. Gabriel Angelos, too, so I don't see why other chapters would be excluded.

Bionics seem pretty common for marines in general, especially given all the injuries they endure. If that's enough to be cyborg, then so be it.

hobojebus wrote:

General rule to call something a cyborg is 10% or more organic matter being replaced.

According to whom?

I think another good "rule of thumb" would be if you removed all the non-organic parts, would the organic tissue/organism be able to live or function properly without them?
If so, just bionics. If not, then Cyborg.

Primaris, for example, if they do indeed have their legs "replaced" than removing them would indeed hamper their ability to function. Ergo, Cyborg.
Regular, non-Iron Hands, Marines, however, probably just have bionic.

-

I thought primaris just had a different type of muscle, not a leg swap.

hobojebus wrote:
I thought primaris just had a different type of muscle, not a leg swap.

Yeah, I was going off a previous comment and the fact that, proportionately, Primaris feet couldn't physically reach their own boots, thus assumed it was a leg swap.
Anyone able to clarify this fluff for us?

-

Its not a full leg swap. They have metal coils wrapped around their tendons and ligaments called sinew coils.

 ikeulhu wrote:
Its not a full leg swap. They have metal coils wrapped around their tendons and ligaments called sinew coils.

That's what I was thinking of thank you.

The term for something with artificial organic parts is a Bioroid. This also includes living creatures that are entirely artificial. So most Marines start out as bioroids (humans with artificial organic implants) and slowly transition over time (through additional enhancement or prosthetics) into cyborgs.

Good to see a thread going intelligently and civilly!

One thing I mean was when a marine interfaces with his armor is that essentially a cybernetic situation? Does a marine and his armor, interfaces, count as a cyborg?

I'm just killing time waiting for some reliable leaks, So how about the next question, are marines posthuman or transhuman? GW calls them posthuman, but that never really sat right with me.

 Grimgold wrote:
I'm just killing time waiting for some reliable leaks, So how about the next question, are marines posthuman or transhuman? GW calls them posthuman, but that never really sat right with me.

I thought gw called them transhuman, i've seen that term used a lot.

I might be willing to call primarchs posthuman.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Good to see a thread going intelligently and civilly!

One thing I mean was when a marine interfaces with his armor is that essentially a cybernetic situation? Does a marine and his armor, interfaces, count as a cyborg?

No that's bionics, the interface plugs don't replace anything they add something not present before.

Losing an arm and replacing it would be cyborg.

The definition of Cyborg seems to be somewhat fluid and up for interpretation. My granny has a titanium hip, which could be enough to count depending how you argue it. Taking it to an extreme, contact lenses, spectacles or clothes could count, but that's taking it too far, IMO.
The definition I'm going with is the one on the Wikipedia page - that's as good as any for discussion.. "it applies to an organism that has restored function or enhanced abilities due to the integration of some artificial component or technology that relies on some sort of feedback." To me, the autosense and black carapace interface sockets count, as the ability to interface ones nervous system and senses with the armour is an "enhanced ability".


I'd say a Space Marine in his armour is definitely a cyborg - the armour is replacing the function of the Marine's skin, eyes, ears and enhancing the function of his musculature and lungs.

 Galef wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
I thought primaris just had a different type of muscle, not a leg swap.

Yeah, I was going off a previous comment and the fact that, proportionately, Primaris feet couldn't physically reach their own boots, thus assumed it was a leg swap.

Yeah, no. That's not even close to true and I don't know why people like to constantly repeat it.

There have been some really wacky proportioning of marines in past art (as well as the older models due to GW's very liberal use of the "scale" part of "scale miniatures") but multiple artists including some with direct contact to GW themselves have made cutaway diagrams of marine armor showing how a marine would look inside of the armor. It usually starts with not trying to overlay the silhouette of a 5'10" tall beanpole desk-jockey over the armor of a 7' tall roided up meat bulldozer...





In fact the most recent depiction being a primaris in the bonus book that comes with the limited edition of Spear of the Emperor and can be viewed for free in the website ad images.

Basically, they big...

 Irbis wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Certainly, in the case of Iron Hands, yes, but for the others? I don't know.

Both Calgar and Cassius from UM are mostly machines. Gabriel Angelos, too, so I don't see why other chapters would be excluded.

Because those are individuals. I don't see how Calgar being a cyborg extends that property to the entire chapter. Also, I didn't exclude anyone; I just said, "I don't know."

Personally, I like Galef's rule-of-thumb regarding replacement of functionality.

With regard to the transhuman/posthuman question, my interpretation of posthuman is that a posthuman should be able to self propagate. As other debates on this forum have pointed out, it's not clear if Space Marines or Primarchs can propagate, which leads me to prefer the term, "transhuman."

Jack Flask wrote:

 Galef wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
I thought primaris just had a different type of muscle, not a leg swap.

Yeah, I was going off a previous comment and the fact that, proportionately, Primaris feet couldn't physically reach their own boots, thus assumed it was a leg swap.

Yeah, no. That's not even close to true and I don't know why people like to constantly repeat it.

There have been some really wacky proportioning of marines in past art (as well as the older models due to GW's very liberal use of the "scale" part of "scale miniatures") but multiple artists including some with direct contact to GW themselves have made cutaway diagrams of marine armor showing how a marine would look inside of the armor. It usually starts with not trying to overlay the silhouette of a 5'10" tall beanpole desk-jockey over the armor of a 7' tall roided up meat bulldozer...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

In fact the most recent depiction being a primaris in the bonus book that comes with the limited edition of Spear of the Emperor and can be viewed for free in the website ad images.

Basically, they big...

There's also Gallagher's art back from Index Astartes and his general work which never really delved into the wonky proportions courted by Blanche and Jes Goodwin.

like said, only ironhands are cyborgs.
the see organic flesh as a weakness and would idealy be more metal then flesh, as sutch they replace more and more undamaged organic limbs with metal limbs the longer they stay as a marine.
they allso belive beeing placed in a dreadnought to be the higest form of honor a IH marine can achive.

(part of the scout to marine rutine is to replace the left hand whit a steel one)

A man on a bicycle is in many ways a cyborg.

A man+ interfacing directly with powered armour is for sure a cyborg, by many definitions.

YMMV

 JohnnyHell wrote:
A man on a bicycle is in many ways a cyborg.

A man+ interfacing directly with powered armour is for sure a cyborg, by many definitions.

YMMV

Interestingly enough when H. G. Wells created the first cyborgs written about, the martians in his "War of the worlds" novel, which we're so completely integrated with their war machines that they we're literally nothing but brains that
Operated the machines, he said that a man riding a bicycle was the first step on the path that the martians had completed.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
A man on a bicycle is in many ways a cyborg.

A man+ interfacing directly with powered armour is for sure a cyborg, by many definitions.

YMMV

No again that's bionics it's adding something that wasn't there before, cybernetics replaces existing functions.

I wear glasses I'm not a cyborg.

Aside from bionics, I would say that the Black Carapace definitely makes a Space Marine a cyborg. It's under most of their skin, and allows them to interface with their power armor. Technically just a tiny RFID chip under your skin nowadays that simply reads when you are in a building can classify you as a cyborg.

All Astartes are cyborgs, due to all of them having neural interface plugs which are required for them to use their power armor. And while the majority of their implanted organs are organic, the Black Carapace is plastic. Their very nature is that of a transhuman cybernetic organism. And that’s before replacement limbs.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
All Astartes are cyborgs, due to all of them having neural interface plugs which are required for them to use their power armor. And while the majority of their implanted organs are organic, the Black Carapace is plastic. Their very nature is that of a transhuman cybernetic organism. And that’s before replacement limbs.

SJ

This is exactly what i WAS thinking.

One thing, even if the carapace is a type of plastic it can still be organic. Most plastics are made from organic molecules.

Nice silhouette pictures, but it always bugs me the artist assumes armor is paper thin on the groin and armpit area. I mean, even thick winter coat doesn't let you move arms so close to the body, never mind centimeter thick armour with metal wiring and artificial muscles underneath...

Then you have terminators with their ears being level with shoulders somehow, which never made any sense to me

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One thing, even if the carapace is a type of plastic it can still be organic. Most plastics are made from organic molecules.

Nitpick - all "organic" molecule means it has carbon atoms. No more, no less, methane found in interstellar dust is "organic" molecule too despite being created in a star.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Because those are individuals. I don't see how Calgar being a cyborg extends that property to the entire chapter.

They are individuals, but it shows the Chapter has capability of producing these at will, they just choose not to.

 Irbis wrote:
Nice silhouette pictures, but it always bugs me the artist assumes armor is paper thin on the groin and armpit area. I mean, even thick winter coat doesn't let you move arms so close to the body, never mind centimeter thick armour with metal wiring and artificial muscles underneath...

Then you have terminators with their ears being level with shoulders somehow, which never made any sense to me

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
One thing, even if the carapace is a type of plastic it can still be organic. Most plastics are made from organic molecules.

Nitpick - all "organic" molecule means it has carbon atoms. No more, no less, methane found in interstellar dust is "organic" molecule too despite being created in a star.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Because those are individuals. I don't see how Calgar being a cyborg extends that property to the entire chapter.

They are individuals, but it shows the Chapter has capability of producing these at will, they just choose not to.

Any armor will be at its thinnest on the armpits due to simple mobility concerns. Either your armpit is well armored, or you can move your arm. You can't have both.