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Say for example The Emperor appeared (presumably in Turkey somewhere). Typical image of a giant with golden hair. No one has any knowledge of His immortality or psychic power but He works his way to power and attempts to seize control of neighbouring countries. Obviously without the thunder warriors but more with his psychic “wooing” to make people bend to his will.

What would the rest of the world make of it?

Would having Unity solve more current problems than it generates?

Anti-authoritarians such as myself would be extremely skeptical of anyone who showed up and started unifying much of the globe under centralized governance, no matter what means they used to do it. Religious types would be divided between seeing him as a messiah and an antichrist. Your average person who goes with the flow would probably jump right on board as long as there were some measurably positive results in their own lives.

I don't think he'd be able to unify the globe without the use of extreme military force, that's just not how humanity works.

 Luciferian wrote:
I don't think he'd be able to unify the globe without the use of extreme military force, that's just not how humanity works.

Actually that's exactly how you unite humanity, through peaceful means. Trade agreements and economical zones have been more successful at uniting people than armies. A shared religion is also a very powerful tool. Humanity is a naturally cooperative specie. Give us the tools to work together in a beneficiary way and watch us unite quickly and the longer we remained allied, the more intermeshed we get, the more indivisible we become. To unite humanity through military force is nearly impossible and maintain unless you resort to genocidal means and lets face it, at that point you are not uniting anyone, you are replacing them.

People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

If he had access to the full range of his powers he had in the 30k universe, a lot of people are going to side with him pretty quick if he plays into the I'm some kind of deity angle/super human angle. Even the most non religious person is going to have a hard time denying his powers when he can summon up a small sun or make a legion of super humans kneel.

A large portion of the western hemisphere's population is waiting for a white guy to show up in the Middle East and say he's in charge. Given how much more powerful he is as an entity than anything short of (or including, probably) nuclear weapons I don't think the rest of the world would have any chance of opposing him.

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Looks at Europe pre-1945.

Looks at Europe post-1945.

Pretty sure you’re not right I’m afraid. After centuries, if not a millennia of knocking seven bells out of each other, Europe has enjoyed 70 or so years of peace.

No, it’s not perfect. But it’s damned close compared to the past.

Mellow wrote:
Say for example The Emperor appeared (presumably in Turkey somewhere). Typical image of a giant with golden hair. No one has any knowledge of His immortality or psychic power but He works his way to power and attempts to seize control of neighbouring countries. Obviously without the thunder warriors but more with his psychic “wooing” to make people bend to his will.

What would the rest of the world make of it?

Would having Unity solve more current problems than it generates?

It all depends on his actions, how he conquers and how he interacts with people and what he tells people about what he is doing, he'd probably be seen as he was during the Unification wars, just another authoritarian warlord, if he didn't hide his true self though there would be people believing that he was godlike or a god and an Imperial cult would be born.

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Exalted for a well thought out and intelligent post. It reminds me of several Jordan Peterson videos when he talks on these kinds of topics. I would like to add that what could serve as tool to unify humanity would be to establish an alien enemy that all people could unite in hating. It of course in of itself would not serve to unify humanity on it's own, but it would help. Playing to the fears and hatred of people is a tried and true method of getting their support.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Exalted for a well thought out and intelligent post. It reminds me of several Jordan Peterson videos when he talks on these kinds of topics. I would like to add that what could serve as tool to unify humanity would be to establish an alien enemy that all people could unite in hating. It of course in of itself would not serve to unify humanity on it's own, but it would help. Playing to the fears and hatred of people is a tried and true method of getting their support.

Certainly very true, if the Emperor could establish an existential threat to humanity (imagined or otherwise) it would certainly help him in his conquests given humanity's disposition to fear and hate the unknown. Given the era of populism we're entering with social media swaying public opinion so easily, I could see the Emperor taking advantage of that as well.

I’d disagee that trade and shared economics promote peace and co-operation. More like it is an illusory sticking plaster which can be dropped in a near instant if national self interest serves ( see some of Trunp’s dropped agreements , or Russia and the supply of Gas to Eastern Europe).

Trade groups often exclude nations which cannot offer them anything of much value.

In terms of reaction to the Big E , not positive, I think over a short space of time you’d see a war on terror style coalition formed of the majority of major nations moving to take him down. Historically whenever a figure has risen in modern history that is deemed a threat then they are removed - Saddam, Qudaffi, Milosovic etc

In terms of a true global unity , you need s threat or challenge bigger than anything because only then can nations use their advantages outside an economic context. So think about Day after tomorrow - China is used because it can - better or worse- supply massive amounts of labour loyal to the state and easily controlled , plus they can seize the land instantly.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Exalted for a well thought out and intelligent post. It reminds me of several Jordan Peterson videos when he talks on these kinds of topics. I would like to add that what could serve as tool to unify humanity would be to establish an alien enemy that all people could unite in hating. It of course in of itself would not serve to unify humanity on it's own, but it would help. Playing to the fears and hatred of people is a tried and true method of getting their support.

Certainly very true, if the Emperor could establish an existential threat to humanity (imagined or otherwise) it would certainly help him in his conquests given humanity's disposition to fear and hate the unknown. Given the era of populism we're entering with social media swaying public opinion so easily, I could see the Emperor taking advantage of that as well.

The Emperor, as the shaman origin in 1st Edition lore said, chose not to reveal himself (at least as the Emperor. He became many figures from history in times of turmoil) until the Age of Strife.

But if the Emperor can prove alien threats, it would be easier for him to get control. Otherwise, everyone might think he is a space-racist and crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mellow wrote:
Say for example The Emperor appeared (presumably in Turkey somewhere). Typical image of a giant with golden hair. No one has any knowledge of His immortality or psychic power but He works his way to power and attempts to seize control of neighbouring countries. Obviously without the thunder warriors but more with his psychic “wooing” to make people bend to his will.

What would the rest of the world make of it?

Would having Unity solve more current problems than it generates?

That's a reference to his birth in Anatolia? 1st Edition lore and Horus Rising says he was born there.

But I stand by what I said.

I don't see what 1st edition lore has anything to do with this, given that this particular hypothetical has him explicitly walking up and about and not following what he was implied to have done before the Age of Strife.

Do you have issues with reading comprehension? Cause you don't need to rush your replies, you can take your time.

Also, regarding people thinking he is "space-racist" wouldn't mean much given how racist we are to each other now. If anything, having a definitely non-human thing to hate and focus on would be easier since dehumanizing the "other" is the basic level of getting people on board for genocide and attacking them as enemies. So although there might be some fringe groups against the violence, the vast majority would be pro-humanity and be in support of the Emperor against an alien threat, especially if its attacked or been proven to be dangerous. Why do you think so many movies have humanity uniting against alien invasions like Independence Day or even the idea of the first Avengers movie?

Definitely not, as this thread would mean the Emperor is choosing to reveal himself as the Emperor tens of thousands of years earlier. That is why I said that.


EDIT: Forgot to add "choosing to reveal himself AS THE EMPEROR."

Onething123456 wrote:
Definitely not, as this thread would mean the Emperor is choosing to reveal himself as the Emperor tens of thousands of years earlier. That is why I said that.


EDIT: Forgot to add "choosing to reveal himself AS THE EMPEROR."

Definitely not what? That you don't have reading comprehension issues? You're kinda proving my point, since what you just posted just basically argues against the premise of the thread, which is explicitly saying that the Emperor is revealing himself way earlier.

 Grimskul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Definitely not, as this thread would mean the Emperor is choosing to reveal himself as the Emperor tens of thousands of years earlier. That is why I said that.


EDIT: Forgot to add "choosing to reveal himself AS THE EMPEROR."

Definitely not what? That you don't have reading comprehension issues? You're kinda proving my point, since what you just posted just basically argues the premise of the thread, which is explicitly saying that the Emperor is revealing himself way earlier.

I already said why I brought it up.

Moving on, I stand by what I said about the topic. The Emperor would have to convince humanity of alien threats, or they would think he is a delusional space-racist.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Definitely not, as this thread would mean the Emperor is choosing to reveal himself as the Emperor tens of thousands of years earlier. That is why I said that.


EDIT: Forgot to add "choosing to reveal himself AS THE EMPEROR."

Definitely not what? That you don't have reading comprehension issues? You're kinda proving my point, since what you just posted just basically argues the premise of the thread, which is explicitly saying that the Emperor is revealing himself way earlier.

I already said why I brought it up.

Moving on, I stand by what I said about the topic. The Emperor would have to convince humanity of alien threats, or they would think he is a delusional space-racist.

No he wouldn't, his qualifications to govern humanity are not tied to the existence of external threats. He's an overwhelmingly powerful psyker and a genius, not only could he display his incredible abilities to the masses but we've also seen him just psychically enforce his will upon thousands of people at once.

 Orblivion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Definitely not, as this thread would mean the Emperor is choosing to reveal himself as the Emperor tens of thousands of years earlier. That is why I said that.


EDIT: Forgot to add "choosing to reveal himself AS THE EMPEROR."

Definitely not what? That you don't have reading comprehension issues? You're kinda proving my point, since what you just posted just basically argues the premise of the thread, which is explicitly saying that the Emperor is revealing himself way earlier.

I already said why I brought it up.

Moving on, I stand by what I said about the topic. The Emperor would have to convince humanity of alien threats, or they would think he is a delusional space-racist.

No he wouldn't, his qualifications to govern humanity is not tied to the existence of external threats. He's an overwhelmingly powerful psyker and a genius, not only could he display his incredible abilities to the masses but we've also seen him just psychically enforce his will upon thousands of people at once.

And the biggest thing we have to compare as well is that our world in comparison to Earth during the Unification Wars is far less crazy and divided (at least in most of the Western world). The Emperor had to deal with techno-barbarians and crazy warlords, versus our current governments, I think he'd fare significantly better since the path to diplomacy is a lot clearer.

To me, the simple question is: How would Dr. Doom conquer/unify the world under his utopian vision? Because that's how the Emperor would do it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
To me, the simple question is: How would Dr. Doom conquer/unify the world under his utopian vision? Because that's how the Emperor would do it.

Didn't marvel do a comic were he did that and the world really wasn't that bad of a place ? I vaguely remember reading that as a kid.


The Emperor would win a ton of followers based just on his powers. Imagine a video of him going viral of pulling an aircraft carrier out of the water with his mind and then just dropping it back down or something of similar power. He ends it with join me and we shall conquer the stars. That's going to get a huge chunk of the population over night.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
To me, the simple question is: How would Dr. Doom conquer/unify the world under his utopian vision? Because that's how the Emperor would do it.

Didn't marvel do a comic were he did that and the world really wasn't that bad of a place ? I vaguely remember reading that as a kid.


The Emperor would win a ton of followers based just on his powers. Imagine a video of him going viral of pulling an aircraft carrier out of the water with his mind and then just dropping it back down or something of similar power. He ends it with join me and we shall conquer the stars. That's going to get a huge chunk of the population over night.

Yeah, especially given how much we already fantasize with super heroes and shows with people having powers, seeing someone in the flesh literally doing it would ensure the enrapturement of an entire generation alone.

Mellow wrote:
Say for example The Emperor appeared (presumably in Turkey somewhere). Typical image of a giant with golden hair. No one has any knowledge of His immortality or psychic power but He works his way to power and attempts to seize control of neighbouring countries. Obviously without the thunder warriors but more with his psychic “wooing” to make people bend to his will.

What would the rest of the world make of it?

Would having Unity solve more current problems than it generates?

Isn't he described as more of a Native American looking with long black hair, or has that been retconned? I vote Konrad Curze to govern our planet, bleak as that may look, its what we need.

To be fair from what I remember Konrad was a really good ruler until someone committed crimes so for most people it's not all that bad.

pm713 wrote:
To be fair from what I remember Konrad was a really good ruler until someone committed crimes so for most people it's not all that bad.

Is there any detail about how life was on Nostramo then? Because the "terrorize people to keep them in line" policy could kinda work, making eveyone abide the law for fear of the consequences, or it could make eveyone completely paranoid and start pointing fingers at their neighbor who's been littering. Anything to make sure Night Haunter is busy gutting someone else tonight...

Tiennos wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair from what I remember Konrad was a really good ruler until someone committed crimes so for most people it's not all that bad.

Is there any detail about how life was on Nostramo then? Because the "terrorize people to keep them in line" policy could kinda work, making eveyone abide the law for fear of the consequences, or it could make eveyone completely paranoid and start pointing fingers at their neighbor who's been littering. Anything to make sure Night Haunter is busy gutting someone else tonight...

My understanding was he was a standard Primarch leader, smart and good overall, until someone did something wrong which tended to be killing on Nostromo. Then he went full Space Batman and ripped them apart. Might be alright with things like parking tickets but it could have a much harsher fining system.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I’d disagee that trade and shared economics promote peace and co-operation. More like it is an illusory sticking plaster which can be dropped in a near instant if national self interest serves ( see some of Trunp’s dropped agreements , or Russia and the supply of Gas to Eastern Europe).

Trade groups often exclude nations which cannot offer them anything of much value.

In terms of reaction to the Big E , not positive, I think over a short space of time you’d see a war on terror style coalition formed of the majority of major nations moving to take him down. Historically whenever a figure has risen in modern history that is deemed a threat then they are removed - Saddam, Qudaffi, Milosovic etc

In terms of a true global unity , you need s threat or challenge bigger than anything because only then can nations use their advantages outside an economic context. So think about Day after tomorrow - China is used because it can - better or worse- supply massive amounts of labour loyal to the state and easily controlled , plus they can seize the land instantly.

Trade does indeed promote peace and co-operation. If you need something, you either trade for it, substitute it, or eventually, if you can't stand it any longer, you take it by force. If you observe 4 year olds long enough, eventually you'll see all this happen. Likewise, peace and co-operation also depends on the people and their moralities. The Spice Trade, imperialism, shows what happens when the scale of power is not balanced, and neither side has respect, humility, or compassion for the other. Kind of like expecting the Internet to behave itself. Or people in the two US political parties to co-operate so that we can end the myriad of problems everyone globally talks about. (and pretends their own problems are so much smaller than ours). We are a different people, globally, from our ancestors. We think a bit more differently, and we are a tad more tolerant than we used to be. If we weren't we wouldn't have global trade, or commercial airlines to all parts of the world.

If there was ONE thing you were to ask me that is the most crucial above all the other things that we need to change, for "World Peace", I'd have to say standards of living, the way people live. Poverty, disease, mental disorders, physical disorders, wage gap, the narrowing of choices you can make as you go down the wealth tree, racism, bigotry, crime, terrorism. These are age old problems, and I am under no illusion that it will all be fixed by increasing the quality of life on a global scale like they do in Star Trek and Mass Effect. But I believe it will go a long way to alleviating most of the burden these problems have on global society today. If we can fix that, then perhaps instead of uneducated people making stupid decisions, or educated people and wealthy people taking advantage of everyone else, we can finally start looking up from our daily grind, our journey to satiate our everlasting hunger for wealth and comfort, and start recognizing each other as people, with thoughts, conscience, feelings, and accept each others pains.

Universally, humans are complex, but our wants and our needs are pretty simple. Shelter, food, comfort, other people, and happiness. Its because humans are complex, that its become such a problem for us to be able to find these things for everyone. That in itself is also a problem. I would lie, murder, cheat, and steal to obtain these things for myself and the ones I love if we are starved of all these things. It would be foolish not to expect the same of everyone else.

Tiennos wrote:

pm713 wrote:
To be fair from what I remember Konrad was a really good ruler until someone committed crimes so for most people it's not all that bad.

Is there any detail about how life was on Nostramo then? Because the "terrorize people to keep them in line" policy could kinda work, making eveyone abide the law for fear of the consequences, or it could make eveyone completely paranoid and start pointing fingers at their neighbor who's been littering. Anything to make sure Night Haunter is busy gutting someone else tonight...

The problem with Konrad was it worked while he was personally there to keep everyone in a constant state of fear, but beside that he did little to improve the planets over all situation/ social infrastructure so that one day the planet wouldn't need such heavy handed tactics that he used. The minute he left, it quickly fell apart. Fear and intimidation needs to be constant and every present to be effective.

The Emperor isn't obsessed with the idea of ruling mankind. He only stepped in at M30 because without intervention mankind was basically doomed to extinction. Realistically staying within the bounds of his character he might try to clean up global warming using his powers, but otherwise wouldn't suddenly install himself as dictator without an outside threat. Until the Black Library complete their character assassination anyway.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Exalted for a well thought out and intelligent post. It reminds me of several Jordan Peterson videos when he talks on these kinds of topics. I would like to add that what could serve as tool to unify humanity would be to establish an alien enemy that all people could unite in hating. It of course in of itself would not serve to unify humanity on it's own, but it would help. Playing to the fears and hatred of people is a tried and true method of getting their support.

Seriously? Peterson is right wing moron who thinks everyone left of Franco is Marxist, that divorce is evil, climate change doesn't exist, giving women and minorities any rights destroys WESTERN CIVILIZATION™, protests any limits to ""free speech"" (read - his 'right' to insult, defame and belittle anyone he doesn't like) but sues everyone who dares to criticize him, thinks women should be forced to marry incels, that human rights are leftist invention, that the only 'real' racism is the one directed at whites, and a lot of other assorted nonsense that would place him to the right of men like Mussolini or Pinochet. In 2018

I live in country ruled by very right wing clique that would be right at home a century or two ago that says a lot of nonsense of their own, but even they think half of his positions are outright lunacy, which is pretty telling.

As for uniting anyone, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you need any enemies to unite anyone, or that mixing of various tribes balkanizes anything. Persian empire, Rome, Holy Roman empire, Arab caliphate, old Russia, British empire, hell, even USA stayed united and peaceful despite there being no serious external enemies and their cities being some of the most diverse places in the world mixing dozens if not hundreds of different languages, cultures and religions. If there is social breakdown and balkanization, 9 times out of 10 it's tied to economic problems, and most of the remaining cases are religious and nationalist pogroms, not any inherent human need or want to segregate.

If anything, the Emperor got one thing right in his program, IMHO, the fact that one human state, secular and blind to differences between various groups, would eliminate vast majority of divisions and therefore tribalisms within humanity. It's telling very little tales of "the cruelest regime imaginable" show such common woes of today as hate based on skin color, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, apparently Imperium managed to do at least that much. It's also telling most of discrimination, ignorance, obscurantism and hate in the Imperium flows from the two churches that de-facto control it, and even then both organizations are 100% inclusive toward any and all humans, and only discriminate based on your beliefs, not circumstances of your birth.

 Irbis wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
People are cooperative within their own tribes, but without shared values and identity they self-segregate into competitive in-groups. In reality, the more you put different tribes in proximity with each other, the more social cohesion breaks down and the different groups balkanize. A shared religion or shared identity would go a long way into solving this - but again, a new religion would be competitive with any previous ones and would be a matter of violent contention in itself.

Genocide is definitely not a good way to unite different groups of people, but pacification and subjugation to the whole would be necessary to overcome humans' innate in-group biases and preferences, in my opinion.

Exalted for a well thought out and intelligent post. It reminds me of several Jordan Peterson videos when he talks on these kinds of topics. I would like to add that what could serve as tool to unify humanity would be to establish an alien enemy that all people could unite in hating. It of course in of itself would not serve to unify humanity on it's own, but it would help. Playing to the fears and hatred of people is a tried and true method of getting their support.

As for uniting anyone, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you need any enemies to unite anyone, or that mixing of various tribes balkanizes anything. Persian empire, Rome, Holy Roman empire, Arab caliphate, old Russia, British empire, hell, even USA stayed united and peaceful despite there being no serious external enemies and their cities being some of the most diverse places in the world mixing dozens if not hundreds of different languages, cultures and religions. If there is social breakdown and balkanization, 9 times out of 10 it's tied to economic problems, and most of the remaining cases are religious and nationalist pogroms, not any inherent human need or want to segregate.

HA

The Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Republic and subsequent Roman Empires, Caliphates, and old Russia were not "peaceful states". The Holy Roman Empire spent as much time fighting itself as it did its enemies (who often the HRE could not even agree which were), Rome's worst enemy was itself as they suffered typically over 20 civil wars and uprisings each century, growing in frequency as the Empires split and teetered to their deaths. The Umayyads oppressed minorities throughout their existence, and while the Abbasids held some peace for a while there was still chronic backstabbing and succession crises that led to civil warfare (not to mention the Golden Age of Islam got kneecapped when the Mihna were implemented). Finally Russia spent much of its existence kicking down, warring with, and generally oppressing minority populations in the far south and north. The idea that Empires were peaceful is either a lie or ignorance resulting from the unusual state of the modern world. In history on-and-off-again conflict is the norm.

Even England suffered from constant civil strife until the government was able to wrest true absolute authority over the population - and even then it would plunge into civil war under Cromwell. And when a state finally stabilizes and isn't fighting amongst itself, it merely exports the violence to its neighbors via invasion. Furthermore the US wasn't "at peace" for most of its existence. The Westward Expansion wasn't a peaceful strive into empty land but involved in us genociding native tribes by simply shooting them off their territory. All while attempting to extinguish their cultures and hem them into increasingly smaller pens.