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Hello there. I have a question regarding you kill team game that is causing quite a stir at our game shop. It is in question if a unit can or can not while not being in melee himself use a pistol to shoot into a melee with a friendly unit that he is nt part of. Any help with this question would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Regards.

If a model is within 1" of an enemy model they can fire their pistol in the shooting phase but it must be at the closest eligible target.

If you're within 1"then you're in the combat.

ETA - I used post 6666 for this?

What if the guy with the pistol is not in melee. That's my question. He is 4 inches away shooting into melee.

Nope, if a model is within 1" of an enemy model, it can fire a pistol at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model but only if it's the closest target. If the model is not within 1" of an enemy model, it can't fire at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model.

What about if the model with a pistol was charged in the Move phase? In my introductory game, that came up quite a bit (basically one charge after another on the same model), and I was told I couldn't use the pistol because they had been charged that round.

I haven't read anywhere this is a thing, but I don't know if I have gone through everything. I sure would like to know if this is real or the group is reading into something that isn't really there.

Rulebook page 30:

PISTOL
Pistols are carried one-handed and can even be used
in a melee to shoot at point-blank range. You can choose to shoot with a model with a Pistol
weapon even if there are enemy models within 1", but
it must target the closest enemy model (you can choose
which if two or more are equidistant) and can only
shoot with its Pistol weapon(s). In such circumstances,
the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly
models are within 1" of the same enemy model. It
cannot fire a Pistol if it was charged in this battle round. Each time a model armed with both a Pistol and another
type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire
weapon) is chosen to shoot, it can either shoot with its
Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons. Choose which
it will fire (Pistols or non-Pistols) before making hit rolls.

Eugenenelson2011 wrote:
What if the guy with the pistol is not in melee. That's my question. He is 4 inches away shooting into melee.

As stated above, the answer to the question is "no."

The special rules that pistols have regarding "shooting into melee" can be summarized as follows:

Assume "Model A" is armed with a pistol.

IF Model A is within 1" of an enemy (AND Model A did not charge and was not charged this round) Model A may fire its pistol(s),

BUT only at the closest enemy model to Model A,

EVEN IF Model A has other friendlies within 1" of Model A's target.

And that's it. Pistols absolutely do not have some kind of general dispensation to shoot into melee.

Thanks for your info.

Greywing wrote:

Eugenenelson2011 wrote:
What if the guy with the pistol is not in melee. That's my question. He is 4 inches away shooting into melee.

As stated above, the answer to the question is "no."

The special rules that pistols have regarding "shooting into melee" can be summarized as follows:

Assume "Model A" is armed with a pistol.

IF Model A is within 1" of an enemy (AND Model A did not charge and was not charged this round) Model A may fire its pistol(s),

BUT only at the closest enemy model to Model A,

EVEN IF Model A has other friendlies within 1" of Model A's target.

And that's it. Pistols absolutely do not have some kind of general dispensation to shoot into melee.

Please correct me if I'm mis-reading the rulebook or your post, but I think your dot point is incorrect.

It should read
- "EVEN IF" Model A.....

So therefore a model with a pistol can still shoot if it is outside of 1" on an enemy model, as long as it fires at the closest enemy model and shoots no other weapon and was not charged.

And so the same answer to the OP: YES you can shoot your pistol into a nearby combat even if a friendly model is within 1" as long as the target is the closest enemy model and your shooting model wasn't charged.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Max


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
Nope, if a model is within 1" of an enemy model, it can fire a pistol at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model but only if it's the closest target. If the model is not within 1" of an enemy model, it can't fire at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model.

Please see above - my interpretation of the rules contradict your interpretation. Not having a go at all, just want to make sure I'm doing it right!

You can choose to shoot with a model with a Pistol
weapon even if there are enemy models within 1", but
it must target the closest enemy model (you can choose
which if two or more are equidistant) and can only
shoot with its Pistol weapon(s). In such circumstances,
the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly
models are within 1" of the same enemy model.

You can not shoot at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model except in this specific case.

Again, I do not believe there is a general dispensation that allows pistols to shoot into close combats that they themselves are not in. The only rule that would allow a pistol to shoot at an enemy target that is itself in combat with one of the pistoleer's teammates is this:

"In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly models are within 1" of the [target]."

The critical point here is that red phrase. "Such circumstances" has to be a reference to the circumstances described in the immediately preceding sentence, specifically, (1) "there are enemy models within 1" [of the firing model]," and (2) the firing model "must target the closest enemy model." If the pistoleer is not within 1" of an enemy itself, that first circumstance is not satisfied. Thus, the pistoleer is not operating within the red "In such circumstances" clause --and the rest of that rule therefore doesn't apply. You revert to the general shooting rules which prohibit shooting an enemy that is within 1" of one of your teammates.

All the "In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly models are within 1" of the same enemy model." sentence allows is for you to shoot into a melee you're engaged in when you aren't the only friendly model in that melee. Without it you'd be able to use a pistol in a one on one fight, but not if your buddy was also involved (which would be incredibly silly, I'm sure we all agree).

Pistols are extremely limited in KT.

Note, however, that weapons that work like pistols at first glance but aren't actually listed as Pistol X (like Flesh Hooks for Tyranids) often work very differently in practice. Those aforementioned Flesh Hooks can fire after advancing (they're assault weapons, not pistols), don't limit your shooting to just them, don't have to target the nearest enemy while engaged (so can shoot at targets that aren't engaged at all), and can fire into combats the shooter isn't even engaged in.

You forgot to mention that you can shoot them, even when charged in this turn.

Not being able to shoot with any weapon when being charged is not due the fact that you're being charged, but to the fact that you are within 1" of an enemy, which is the consequence of being charged.

The pistol removes that restriction for being within 1", but adds the restriction that you can't shoot when being charged.

The flesh hooks do not add that restriction, they just allow you to fire even if within 1".

brumbaer wrote:
You forgot to mention that you can shoot them, even when charged in this turn.

Not being able to shoot with any weapon when being charged is not due the fact that you're being charged, but to the fact that you are within 1" of an enemy, which is the consequence of being charged.

The pistol removes that restriction for being within 1", but adds the restriction that you can't shoot when being charged.

The flesh hooks do not add that restriction, they just allow you to fire even if within 1".

Yep, flesh hooks seem like an oversight but they are extremely flexible.

Greywing wrote:
Again, I do not believe there is a general dispensation that allows pistols to shoot into close combats that they themselves are not in. The only rule that would allow a pistol to shoot at an enemy target that is itself in combat with one of the pistoleer's teammates is this:

"In such circumstances, the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly models are within 1" of the [target]."

The critical point here is that red phrase. "Such circumstances" has to be a reference to the circumstances described in the immediately preceding sentence, specifically, (1) "there are enemy models within 1" [of the firing model]," and (2) the firing model "must target the closest enemy model." If the pistoleer is not within 1" of an enemy itself, that first circumstance is not satisfied. Thus, the pistoleer is not operating within the red "In such circumstances" clause --and the rest of that rule therefore doesn't apply. You revert to the general shooting rules which prohibit shooting an enemy that is within 1" of one of your teammates.

 Luciferian wrote:

You can choose to shoot with a model with a Pistol
weapon even if there are enemy models within 1", but
it must target the closest enemy model (you can choose
which if two or more are equidistant) and can only
shoot with its Pistol weapon(s). In such circumstances,
the model can shoot its Pistol even if other friendly
models are within 1" of the same enemy model.

You can not shoot at an enemy model within 1" of a friendly model except in this specific case.

Ah yes I see where I was getting confused! You guys are right 100% - carry on!

 Luciferian wrote:


Yep, flesh hooks seem like an oversight but they are extremely flexible.

I wouldn't say Flesh Hooks are an oversight, but rather that normal pistols really aren't terribly inspiring.

When compared to a generic gun of the same type, they tend to have half the range, have half the output even when they can shoot (if their generic version is RF), can't fire after advancing (if a pistol version of an assault gun) and only get the ability to technically not be locked out of shooting while engaged (though they still are, effectively, with the charge restrictions) in return.

I've only ever seen a pistol fired in melee a handful of times over all the games I've played, as one side or the other generally doesn't want to be sticking around in prolonged melees where withdrawing is an option. If they're supposed to be the "melee" option, they're pretty bad at it. I get not wanting to have a melee combatant have to get shot at on the way over, eat overwatch during the charge, and then get pistol-ed while waiting for the fight phase to roll around, but it leaves pistols in an unfortunate spot.

I think I'd prefer adapting the old "pistols give +1 attack" rule and letting you shoot them in the fight phase (no restrictions on charging) in addition to punching, but that ship has sailed for this edition.