Jaxler wrote:I've noticed that an apparent split is happening. People who don't play grey knights are claiming that people need to wait, and it's not that bad, grey knight players are thinking their army sucks still. I'd like to gently and slowly explain why grey knights suck, and why they still suck. I assumed I didn't need to break this down, but I will do so easily so even people with no understanding of grey knights can see the problem.
Here are key concepts and things required to understand grey knight's problems, that are not instantly apparent.
Grey knights pay for things they cannot use effectively. Each model has a force weapon built into the cost. All our infantry that aren't characters or paladins have 1 attack base or 2 in the case of terminators. You are paying out the nose for a weapon you can barely use. Everyone is a wizard! we can only use 6 spells (Really 4, but that's up next). Deep strike got nerfed, so a lot of times you'll be paying for deep striking units that can't deep strike, or have to wait until turn 2. So, grey knights are really just deep striking marines with storm bolters, that pay for gadgets they can't use. Purgation squads are paying for close weapons that are built into their cost that they trade away for heavy weapons. In fact, all our heavy weapons on power armored guys force us to give up the force weapon that we paid for already, and then make us pay for the heavy weapon.
Grey knights are not good at spells. Look at their spells. Vortex of doom is a horrible spell. It fails to go off 40% of the time, it only targets 1 model, so the AOE is rarely useful, and can hurt your own men. Purge soul is a worse smite. Oh boy, we've 4 spells then! Eh. Gate is great, but its use is kind of miffed by the fact that everything already has deep strike, or sucks, or doesn't need deep strike. Sanctuary is an amazing spell. Astral aim is a good spell, but is held back. It's really only good on dreadnaughts, so the one dread you run to abuse this spell is neat, but a dread out of
LOS that can shoot you isn't going to carry the game. Anyone else is going to be too close for
LOS to really matter or is going to be using gate/sanctuary. You could put it on purgation squads, but purgation squads are just worse strike squads. Hammerhand has the same problems as astral aim, what where it's held back by units wanting a better spell. Remember, we can only know one of these spells on a unit. Also, lets say you've two terminator squads looking to charge. One has hammerhand on it. They both have a 55% chance to make that 9 inch charge. Our smite is trash at 1 wound 12 inches.
Now, lets get to the other problem we have. Every power armored unit, save interceptors, are worse strike squads. Purifiers can't deep strike, and have a worthless spell, so they're worse than strikes and interceptors. Purgators can't deep strike, and all their weapon are worse than storm bolters, save psillencers, but psilencers are only better than storm bolters are select targets. Interceptors are just strike squads that can bounce up the board instead of deep strike.
Are heavy weapons are horrible. Psycannons are worse auto cannons. They've less range, same damage output. They're bad. Incinerators are useless on an army that comes from deep strike. flamers have problems this edition. If your grey knight army is getting charged, you've probably lost already. They are too expensive for the points, and there is no good way for the army to actually use the weapon. Psilencers are bad, but storm bolters are just as good and cheaper 7/10 times.
Deep strike has been nerfed. the army needs deep strike to actually get across the board. almost all our shooting is 24 inch range, so in order to do anything turn one, we need to move. With deep strike being changed, we cannot do much if anything turn one.
Grey knights get diminishing returns. the first two dreadknights grand masters with 3++ and one moving in turn one and rerolling its charge with another on the way is scary. You can only get 2 grandmasters to a 3++. The next grand master is a bad investment unless one of them dies. The 4rth is right out bad. We've only 6(4) spells, so every unit that's a caster after the 6th is paying for something it cannot use.
Double swords! double swords double the attacks of strike squads (and all power armored units). They only make terminators gain 50% more damage. Because of this, an equivalent amount of strike squads always does more damage than any terminator unit (including paladins). Also, double swords are our best weapon vs almost all targets, and the price of them is built into the model, unlike hammers. This problem also applies to all the banner boys with their +1.
I will now explain why most the point changes are not helpful due to the above problems
Apothecary 25 point drop. This is a good change, the problem is, you're not going to run many of these. Another problem is that they're not going to be healing many units that need it. Paladins and Terminators are still bad. He is still a slow-moving terminator.
Brother captain 40 point drop. Just get draigo or a grand master dreadknight.
Brotherhood anchient 38 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Chaplain 39 point drop. It is a worse grand master dreadknight. It has a problem keeping up with friends in combat as well.
Dreadnaught 22 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Mutliples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first. The first is a worse venerable.
Grand master 30 points drop. Worse grand master dreadknight.
Grand master Dread Knight. 20 point drop. You're bringing this and draigo as your
HQ choices and only these. Everything else is worse. You can try to argue reasons why other options are nicer, but 3++ is too nice for me to listen to you.
Interceptor Squads 2 point drop. they are worse strike squads but cost more. They can jump up turn one, this is their selling point. You have to bring these pretty much, and they are bad. The price drop helps, but it is too little. they are worse Strike squads, and strike squads cost too much.
Land Raiders, multiple flavors of points drops. Land raiders still have their old problems. They are squishy for points, have less fire output than a single leman russ, and a knight is more useful. Terminators don't need one for transportation. Terminators are bad. There is nothing to put in them. The points changes don't make them any less unnecessary.
Librarian/voldus. The point changes are irrelevant. Look, you can only cast 6 spells. Two of them are useless. These guys get bad smites. Why would you let one caster steal the spells from the rest of your army? You can use those spells just fine without them. They are actually hurting your army by being brought. They are only worth their stats and nothing else, their rules are useless tax.
Paladin Ancient. 42 point drop. You will only bring one or two of these. It's a nice change, but it's not going to save the army. Also, they can't use double swords, which hurts them. A lot.
Paladin squad. 6 point drop. They are worse custodians. Just use custodians. Their spells don't matter, because custodians get a 4+ and access to storm shields, so sanctuary is meh. Hammerhand wouldn't be needed if they had Custodian grade weapons. Our heavy weapons such, so that's not a factor. Custodians get pretty much +1 to every stat compared to these guys for a small price hike. Custodians are bad, and paladins are worse custodians. The price change doesn't fix this. For the price of a full unit of custodians, you could get a lot of strike squads with more shooting power and better damage output. They're a worse strike squad, and strike squads are overpriced.
Purifiers. 7 point drop. This doesn't matter. they're still not cheaper than strike squads, which are better.
Razorbacks got their price changed, but are still 5 points more than they were in the codex. Razorbacks are still nerfed for grey knights. We cannot effectively reroll wounds in shooting. Razorbacks aren't useful for transporting our boys due to Deep strike or shunt or gate being used to move our units. We cannot make a gunline for them effectively, because our tax troops cost too much. Our only good
HQs will be deep striking in, thus, they cannot buff these backfield shooters. Also, if you did do a parking lot, you'd be worse marines because we lack as many tools for a good parking lot.
Servitors. 3 points more expensive. They're just bad and marines can use them better.
Stormraven. Still 20 points more expensive than it was in codex. It is still a good unit. It's still better in normal marines. We do not need it to transport things. One could argue that it is a worse grand master dreadknight. I certainly would.
Tech marine. 36 point drop. It doesn't suck. You can't spam them. You might bring one or two. It doesn't fix the army. This is a nice change, however. Keep in mind, he can't keep up with the grandmasters, so the only vehicle worth bringing in the army he doesn't synergize with.
Terminators. 7 point drop. Oh boy, here we are. They're still bad. They are still almost double a strike squad member. Strike squad members have more shooting and don't get wrecked by multi damage. Strike squads are overpriced still. They also fill out troop tax for less. for the cost of 1 unit of terminators, you could have 2 strike squads filling out 2 troop requirements, and also, because of squad leaders, you'd be up 1 attack. Here is the big kicker though: Double swords double the attacks on strike squads, while it makes terminators go up by only 50% effectiveness. Double swords are the best melee weapon we have vs all almost all targets. 10 strike squad dudes with double swords is 20
str 4
ap -2 d3
dmg. With terminators, it's only 15.
Venerable dreadnaught. 25 point drop. Rifleman dreadnaughts are good as a 1 off in the list. This is a nice change. It doesn't save the army. Again, you'd only run one of these usually. Multiples got better, but they're worse grand master dreadknight after the first.
Brother captain stern. 52 point drop. He still has bad rules and is a worse brother captain. He also takes up a slot that could house a grandmaster dreadknight.
Castellan Crowe. 52 point drop. He is useless. He does nothing. Do not pay for him.
Draigo. 60 point drop. He's pretty good. Especially if he's making those two Grandmaster Dreadknights reroll everything to hit. He also is good in close combat. He has a 3++! The point changes make him viable! yay! Give
GW a big hand for making a bad grey knight unit good. This is the first proof that
GW can actually do it.
Wargear changes. I will be ignoring the space marine only ones because that doesn't help most of our units but does buff things that are worse grand master dreadknights.
Heavy incinerator 21 point drop. It might be worth taking now! Good to see the grand master dreadknight is worth it!
Heavy psycannon. 6 point drop. buff the grand master's baby walker. He needs it.
Incinerator, 5 points for infantry, 7 points down for terminators. This weapon sucks because it will never be used in the game. It's a wasted 7/5 points still when a storm bolter only costs 2 and can be used after deep strike. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Psilencer terminator, 2 points drops. The psilencer is better because it has more
str 4 shots than a storm bolter per points (sometimes) and more damage. On a terminator, it is 8 points instead of 4. It is now(or rather still) a worse storm bolter.
Psycannon 3 points drop, 9 on terminators. They're still a worse auto cannon. It might be worth it to run them now on purgation squads. This is nice, this is the only change that changes how grey knights play in a healthy way. It is not, however, enough to save the army. Purgation squads still can't hit your army in deployment because the range on these things is only 24. you might still see these sprinkled in strike squads, but eh... we'll see. You are still losing an 8 point force weapon (the price is built into the model, and you still pay it) if you take this on power armored units.
Closing reasons why the above is sound reasoning. This also is the TLDR
As you saw above, I keep referencing the grand master Dreadknight. It is a good unit. It is better than all of our
HQs, save Draigo. You will always run them. They are so good, they force everything else in the
HQ slot to compete with them, and they lose. This unit is so powerful it dominates the codex, and forces everything else to bow before it. You will only have less than 7
HQ slots, and these guys and Draigo are needed in order to make your army pretend to work. They also make almost all vehicles seem lackluster compared to them. Boom, half the units are just worse Grandmaster dreadknights.
Strike teams also have the same problem. All non characters or vehicles units are worse strike squads. Strike squads also are overpriced. They needed a price drop too. So everything else by extension is still grossly over priced because they're a worse version of a bad unit.
Essentially, all the price drops were on things that are either outclassed, upgrades on things not viable, or had such drastic rules problems that they would be useless unless they were game-breakingly cheap. The few things that did get helped, either made the army more reliant on its crutch unit, or were on characters that aren't spammed, and thus don't really give us too many extra points extra. This is how you make so many price drops pointless. You buff things that cannot be taken, and everything else you buff doesn't get better than the units already dominating the codex (save grand master dreadknights).
Other armies got their list of viable units blown up and helped. I am having a hell of a time making my space marine army better and thinking up fun things to do with the new points drops. My tau feel a lot better with the changes, and I can finally use a lot of my older models. My mobile guard/scions list is now a lot more viable. My grey knights are now only useful as 2 dreadknights
GMs and draigo for my guard because every dreadknight after the 2nd gives diminishing returns, and every unit after the 4th gives diminishing returns, and every
HQ is bad compared to the stats per point on a baby carrier grandmaster, and all our infantry suck.
2500
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" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
[1,800] Chaos Knights | 
[1,250] Thousand Sons | 
[1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | 
