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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




This was a thought I had since we started receiving codices.

It seems that, when GW throws out rules, sometimes factions get multiple bonuses depending if the bonuses aren't too strong. What's incredibly common though is that any faction with a 6+++ bonus doesn't get that. It's only an extra wound here and there basically.

I feel it's part of GW not knowing how much durability should cost, and then they suddenly end up being weaker because of it (with no stacking for whatever reason).

I just wanna hear if people agree with my assessment.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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USA

Totally agree. It's not that army wide 6+++ is weak, far from it, I think it just isn't as strong in comparison to other faction traits. It might be a symptom of GW trying to make so many unique faction bonuses, and then some factions just get a 6+++.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 01:48:14


"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Would a 5+++ make it feel more hefty?
   
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Fixture of Dakka




I does depend on the army composition and unit stats. a 6+++, on something with a ton of wounds high stats a +3 inv, that maybe has some other protection in form of -1to hit or halving incoming damage, is just another % added to a unit resiliance. If the model has a lot of wounds the 6+++ aint that bad. It also doesn't seem to be bad on armies with 200 or more models.
If orcs could have a flat 6+++ on every model on top of their mek shield, they would be happy.

On marines stated stuff though the 6+++ seems to be rather bad. And if you have to pay points for it, then it aint worth it. Well maybe if you have loaded dice, and know how to use them.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sometimes single rules are fine too. It works for the -1 To Hit factions after all because it's just really good. Then you have factions that get a lot. For example:
1. White Scars get two bonuses
2. Deathskulls and Blood Axes get 2 or 3 bonuses
3. Then the factions with lamer rules are balanced around you taking Calgar/Abigail/Ghaz

Then these factions just get a straight 6+++. That's it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





+++6 is underwhelming.

+++5 is powerful (and frustrating to play against).

There's no middle ground because we're stuck on a d6 system.

I agree, though, that chapter tactics/factions that have this particular trait really need something else on top of it to make it worth it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
I does depend on the army composition and unit stats. a 6+++, on something with a ton of wounds high stats a +3 inv, that maybe has some other protection in form of -1to hit or halving incoming damage, is just another % added to a unit resiliance. If the model has a lot of wounds the 6+++ aint that bad. It also doesn't seem to be bad on armies with 200 or more models.
If orcs could have a flat 6+++ on every model on top of their mek shield, they would be happy.

On marines stated stuff though the 6+++ seems to be rather bad. And if you have to pay points for it, then it aint worth it. Well maybe if you have loaded dice, and know how to use them.

Basically you're saying that a 6+++ is good when you have good stats. Well that's silly.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
I does depend on the army composition and unit stats. a 6+++, on something with a ton of wounds high stats a +3 inv, that maybe has some other protection in form of -1to hit or halving incoming damage, is just another % added to a unit resiliance. If the model has a lot of wounds the 6+++ aint that bad. It also doesn't seem to be bad on armies with 200 or more models.
If orcs could have a flat 6+++ on every model on top of their mek shield, they would be happy.

On marines stated stuff though the 6+++ seems to be rather bad. And if you have to pay points for it, then it aint worth it. Well maybe if you have loaded dice, and know how to use them.

Basically you're saying that a 6+++ is good when you have good stats. Well that's silly.


No, he's saying that Orks, having lots and lots of models, benefit more from a +++6 because you have a better chance to save those rolls. On Space Marines that have better stats, a +++6 is worse because one marine is more likely to have to take multiple attacks onto them than a mob of orks, meaning the +++6 doesn't matter as much.
   
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I think, with the Snakebites it's a weird ground. I'm currently painting up about 60 snakebite boyz with nobz, etc... (fun fluffy army with left over boys). Right now, I'm doing tests to see if it's a good trait for an ork army that just wants troops and no vechiles. With 30 wounds comming in I had snakebites take a 5++ for kff and a 6++. The bites did well... but sometimes didn't... one time I saved 20 boyz, another time I only save 8. It avaraged out with about 10-15 boyz saved with my dice. Not terrible but you could argue that you could take a painboy and get the same results but with a goff tactics.

To me, this tells me snakebites should hve had something else to make them a bit more durable or unique. Gretchin, for one, should have got 6+++ even on grot shields. Or the ability should have been able to stack with a painboy for two 6+++ or a 5+++.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




drbored wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
I does depend on the army composition and unit stats. a 6+++, on something with a ton of wounds high stats a +3 inv, that maybe has some other protection in form of -1to hit or halving incoming damage, is just another % added to a unit resiliance. If the model has a lot of wounds the 6+++ aint that bad. It also doesn't seem to be bad on armies with 200 or more models.
If orcs could have a flat 6+++ on every model on top of their mek shield, they would be happy.

On marines stated stuff though the 6+++ seems to be rather bad. And if you have to pay points for it, then it aint worth it. Well maybe if you have loaded dice, and know how to use them.

Basically you're saying that a 6+++ is good when you have good stats. Well that's silly.


No, he's saying that Orks, having lots and lots of models, benefit more from a +++6 because you have a better chance to save those rolls. On Space Marines that have better stats, a +++6 is worse because one marine is more likely to have to take multiple attacks onto them than a mob of orks, meaning the +++6 doesn't matter as much.

It also doesn't stack with any of their vehicles (as they all got Ramshackle basically) compared to Ork vehicles getting benefits from all the other factions.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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A 6+++ is definitely overvalued as it's just a 16.67% chance of success and little more than a hail mary in most cases against mere single wound weapons. Against multi-damage hits it's not going to help you much. Changing it to a 5+++ is dangerous for balance however as the Death Guard codex demonstrates, 5+++ stacking with a 3+ or 4+ is very potent. You have a 33.33% chance to save and I've even seen the damage from lascannons completely annulled by some lucky rolling.

The real issue with the lack of durability (especially amongst elite armies like marines) is the simultaneous change in AP systems, failing to take advantage of the limits removed on toughness and strength, and the continued proliferation of AP modifiers. Having the current system in place would be fine so long as AP was actually expensive and no army could throw it around willy-nilly like they have for the past 4-5 editions. But as-is, the result is that everything is basically made out of glass which is only worsened by the proliferation of shots further weakening the value of any save.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 02:29:56


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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Go back to 2nd editions where terminators had a 2+ invuln and you got to roll 2 dice for the save! And then charge 100pts per terminator!
   
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Can Leviathan's 6+++ work outside of 6" of a synapse creature please? That's all I ask, though bumping it to a 5+ would make it more useful for Nids. Would completely invalidate Catalyst, but I would rather ask for a new psychic powers than an entirely new Hive Fleet trait.

PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
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 lolman1c wrote:
Go back to 2nd editions where terminators had a 2+ invuln and you got to roll 2 dice for the save! And then charge 100pts per terminator!


IMO what needs to be done to improve things is just increase toughness, and even hand out toughness buffs as faction traits. Imagine if instead of making Iron Hands or Orks save a mere 16.67% of times, but instead they were increased to toughness five so bolters are only wounding on 5's? Or just increasing terminators up in toughness and adding some wounds. The answer to increase durability in 40k isn't saves (Unless the number of shots drops astronomically), it's to just jack up the raw chunkyness of the respective unit. Weapon strengths can also be increased as needed to maintain a balance so lascannons still wound things like vehicles with relative ease.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I use the 6+++ trait all the time with Leaviathan and i don't find it lacking. Your 2000 point list is now a 2400 point list when it comes to removing it, it's a fine bonus.

It is good on every kind of model, the only time when it is negated is when someone shoots damage 2 weapons on your single wound models. This happens only when you have MEQ models, i rarely have someone shooting overcharged plasma at my gaunts.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Tbh I think it’s more that the community undervalues it. GW certainly don’t "vastly" overestimate it

It’s a straight up 20% boost to durability for wounds that don’t overkill. Its less situational than almost any other chapter bonus.

The only thing I think I would change is that if you have multiple forms of 6+++ then it becomes 5+++. Painboy snakebites, ironhand ven dreads etc.
   
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Italy

6+++ to the entire army is a decent bonus. Works for orks and drukhari. Snakebites are bland because other kulturs have more effective bonuses and the relic, stratagem, trait related to snakebites are not particularly interesting, not because their 6+++ isn't useful. People bring painboyz in order to add that 6+++ that only provides a tiny aura, a free 6+++ to the entire army, including vehicles, is a strong bonus. Main reason I use Black Heart for drukhari isn't the relic that allows the re-roll wound of 1s for ravagers or Agents of Vect, it's the 6+++ to all my 7-8 vehicles that makes them more durable.

6+++ only to infantries, especially elite ones, is absolute trash.

5+++ to the entire army is absolute power creep.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 08:52:38


 
   
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Manchester, UK

Am I behind the times, has the nomenclature changed? I thought invulnerables were written ++, is +++ something different? Or is it simple inflation?

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
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6+++ is FNP. It ignores individual wounds, including things that get around invulns like mortal wounds.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
I use the 6+++ trait all the time with Leaviathan and i don't find it lacking. Your 2000 point list is now a 2400 point list when it comes to removing it, it's a fine bonus.

It is good on every kind of model, the only time when it is negated is when someone shoots damage 2 weapons on your single wound models. This happens only when you have MEQ models, i rarely have someone shooting overcharged plasma at my gaunts.

And that requires you to be in Synapse range and has no synergy with Catalyst. Compared to everyone else that's not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brad Gamma wrote:
Tbh I think it’s more that the community undervalues it. GW certainly don’t "vastly" overestimate it

It’s a straight up 20% boost to durability for wounds that don’t overkill. Its less situational than almost any other chapter bonus.

The only thing I think I would change is that if you have multiple forms of 6+++ then it becomes 5+++. Painboy snakebites, ironhand ven dreads etc.

I think you got your 20% wrong there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 08:59:37


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Martel732 wrote:
6+++ is FNP. It ignores individual wounds, including things that get around invulns like mortal wounds.


Ah, I see. Thanks. I thought someone had just done it by mistake and everyone was rolling with it.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
I use the 6+++ trait all the time with Leaviathan and i don't find it lacking. Your 2000 point list is now a 2400 point list when it comes to removing it, it's a fine bonus.

It is good on every kind of model, the only time when it is negated is when someone shoots damage 2 weapons on your single wound models. This happens only when you have MEQ models, i rarely have someone shooting overcharged plasma at my gaunts.

And that requires you to be in Synapse range and has no synergy with Catalyst. Compared to everyone else that's not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brad Gamma wrote:
Tbh I think it’s more that the community undervalues it. GW certainly don’t "vastly" overestimate it

It’s a straight up 20% boost to durability for wounds that don’t overkill. Its less situational than almost any other chapter bonus.

The only thing I think I would change is that if you have multiple forms of 6+++ then it becomes 5+++. Painboy snakebites, ironhand ven dreads etc.

I think you got your 20% wrong there.



20% is the correct number, and yes Leviathan is limiting so you have to build your list for it, but a Leviathan list will manage to keep the full coverage.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
6+++ to the entire army is a decent bonus. Works for orks and drukhari. Snakebites are bland because other kulturs have more effective bonuses and the relic, stratagem, trait related to snakebites are not particularly interesting, not because their 6+++ isn't useful. People bring painboyz in order to add that 6+++ that only provides a tiny aura, a free 6+++ to the entire army, including vehicles, is a strong bonus. Main reason I use Black Heart for drukhari isn't the relic that allows the re-roll wound of 1s for ravagers or Agents of Vect, it's the 6+++ to all my 7-8 vehicles that makes them more durable.

6+++ only to infantries, especially elite ones, is absolute trash.

5+++ to the entire army is absolute power creep.

You can't be serious. Agents of Vect is the only reason to use Black Heart.
Compare to getting to Ignore Cover and rerolling to hit with several weapons or gaining extra range, you're saying with a straight face you're taking that Kabal for what amounts to basically 1-2 extra wounds for your vehicle.

That's almost trying to be contradictory for the sheer sake of being contradictory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
I use the 6+++ trait all the time with Leaviathan and i don't find it lacking. Your 2000 point list is now a 2400 point list when it comes to removing it, it's a fine bonus.

It is good on every kind of model, the only time when it is negated is when someone shoots damage 2 weapons on your single wound models. This happens only when you have MEQ models, i rarely have someone shooting overcharged plasma at my gaunts.

And that requires you to be in Synapse range and has no synergy with Catalyst. Compared to everyone else that's not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brad Gamma wrote:
Tbh I think it’s more that the community undervalues it. GW certainly don’t "vastly" overestimate it

It’s a straight up 20% boost to durability for wounds that don’t overkill. Its less situational than almost any other chapter bonus.

The only thing I think I would change is that if you have multiple forms of 6+++ then it becomes 5+++. Painboy snakebites, ironhand ven dreads etc.

I think you got your 20% wrong there.



20% is the correct number, and yes Leviathan is limiting so you have to build your list for it, but a Leviathan list will manage to keep the full coverage.

You have a 16.7% chance to save that wound. 20% is not correct.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 09:05:01


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
6+++ to the entire army is a decent bonus. Works for orks and drukhari. Snakebites are bland because other kulturs have more effective bonuses and the relic, stratagem, trait related to snakebites are not particularly interesting, not because their 6+++ isn't useful. People bring painboyz in order to add that 6+++ that only provides a tiny aura, a free 6+++ to the entire army, including vehicles, is a strong bonus. Main reason I use Black Heart for drukhari isn't the relic that allows the re-roll wound of 1s for ravagers or Agents of Vect, it's the 6+++ to all my 7-8 vehicles that makes them more durable.

6+++ only to infantries, especially elite ones, is absolute trash.

5+++ to the entire army is absolute power creep.

You can't be serious. Agents of Vect is the only reason to use Black Heart.
Compare to getting to Ignore Cover and rerolling to hit with several weapons or gaining extra range, you're saying with a straight face you're taking that Kabal for what amounts to basically 1-2 extra wounds for your vehicle.

That's almost trying to be contradictory for the sheer sake of being contradictory.


Absolutely not! The Black Heart cabal shines because it has 6+++ for vehicles, trait, stratagem and relic that are good. It's the combination of all this stuff, not only the stratagem. But Agent of Vects is overrated, it costs 4 CPs and it doesn't change the sort of the game most of the times. Sometimes it can be invaluable though and I'm not saying that it's useless, just that it isn't the main thing about the Black Heart cabal. When you have 60 wounds of vehicles on the table that 6+++ means an extra vehicle or a delaying in the degrading table. Having tougher vehicles is always good since most of our competitive units are vehicles, while denying a stratagem investing 4 CPs (which are a lot, usually 33% ish of the CPs available) is not a must. But the 6+++ for vehicles works in general not only for drukhari: orks battlewagon has +2-3W on average with 6+++, it means that it can soak one additional anti tank hit that goes through saves, a bonus that can also stack with a KFF.

Ignore cover and those re-roll hits of 1s are not that good since poison is absolute trash. The archon allows all the re-rolls of 1s thanks to his aura and it doesn't do much other than that. Extra range? Quite useless on most of the weapons, our main shooters are the ravagers that have 36'' + 14''=50'' range without buffs, same for raiders, flyers have even 36''+20'' or more, scourges deep strike.... That extra range looks good on paper, in fact I admit I started with that cabal but soon abandoned because I noticed that it didn't make any significant difference. We don't play as a gunline.

I think you assume things without having any experience about.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd question Blackie on whether AoV is overrated (I think its meta effect is massive) and disagree that poison is trash - but the other kabals don't help very much. While I was initially sceptical black heart was the way to go, the 6+++ really adds up, not least because Ravagers are dirt cheap for their defensive stats. Ditto for Venoms due to the -1 to hit.

Which is the point of the matter. A 6+++ is not good or bad depending on how many models you have. Each 6+++ after all saves a wound whether its on an ork or a marine. The point is the value of those wounds. The more efficient the defensive stats, the better the 6+++ becomes.

So a Ravager, which is probably 15-20% too cheap (potentially more but maybe the CA changes will prove me wrong) the 6+++ is very efficient. You can say its only the equivalent of having 12 wounds rather than 10 - but it doesn't play out like that. Sometimes it does nothing - but other times you have games where they should have degraded or destroyed your ravager but they don't which sharply swings the game in your favour. Its makes your own luck.

The thing about Black Heart though is that you also get the best stratagem, the best relic and probably the best warlord trait too. (Its not as good as it was, but you look through the other options and they are so mediocre.)

By contrast Iron Hands are rubbish in a rubbish codex. Ulthwe is actually quite good (because Eldar) but Alaitoc is mathematically superior. Snakebites actually could be interesting (monster hunter is a reasonable stratagem, even if the relic and trait are situational at best), but when the other traits work so well why would you experiment with it?
   
Made in pl
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Slayer-Fan123 767974 10262158 wrote:
Basically you're saying that a 6+++ is good when you have good stats. Well that's silly.


the swarm thing was explained byy someone else, so I am going to skip it. I will do the good stat thing though. If you have a hard to kill model, lets say something like a castellan. Ton of wounds, great inv, high T it is already a problem for some armies to one turn such a unit. If you added another type of save to it, the small increase has big returns, because to kill the castellan your going to be throwing a ton of shots at the model and any saved, forces more fire power to be directed. So no this is not silly, this is pure math, which by the way I am bad at, but am sure someone can explain this better then me.

On something like a marine the ++6 is not that good, there are very few models that are going to be saved by it and saving one in 6+ models on avarge, doesn't really help much. While saving something like a castellan or DE monster or something like a flyerant would be very important, even with the stats going down.

Tyel explained it better then me probably.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Italy

Tyel wrote:
I'd question Blackie on whether AoV is overrated (I think its meta effect is massive) and disagree that poison is trash - but the other kabals don't help very much. While I was initially sceptical black heart was the way to go, the 6+++ really adds up, not least because Ravagers are dirt cheap for their defensive stats. Ditto for Venoms due to the -1 to hit.

Which is the point of the matter. A 6+++ is not good or bad depending on how many models you have. Each 6+++ after all saves a wound whether its on an ork or a marine. The point is the value of those wounds. The more efficient the defensive stats, the better the 6+++ becomes.

So a Ravager, which is probably 15-20% too cheap (potentially more but maybe the CA changes will prove me wrong) the 6+++ is very efficient. You can say its only the equivalent of having 12 wounds rather than 10 - but it doesn't play out like that. Sometimes it does nothing - but other times you have games where they should have degraded or destroyed your ravager but they don't which sharply swings the game in your favour. Its makes your own luck.

The thing about Black Heart though is that you also get the best stratagem, the best relic and probably the best warlord trait too. (Its not as good as it was, but you look through the other options and they are so mediocre.)

By contrast Iron Hands are rubbish in a rubbish codex. Ulthwe is actually quite good (because Eldar) but Alaitoc is mathematically superior. Snakebites actually could be interesting (monster hunter is a reasonable stratagem, even if the relic and trait are situational at best), but when the other traits work so well why would you experiment with it?


I agree with everything you say, except the poison part since those darts are basically the weakest version of bolters (we need poison to kill T3 and T4 dudes, for T5+ targets we have other tools that are very strong) and litterally everyone says that bolters are bad.

I've never said AoV is bad, just overrated because 4 CPs for denying 1 stratagem doesn't affect the game that much, many armies and in particular the most competitve ones are very effective even if the drukhari player can counter one stratagem in their turn. As you pointed out it's the combination of all the bonuses that makes the Black Heart the best cabal. In my experience firing at BS3+ instead of 4+ or 4+ instead of 5+ was invalubale to win games, more than AoV which is also powerful, I don't deny it, but more situational and I don't think it's the main reason why someone should chose the Black Heart cabal over the other options.

 
   
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Well that depends on the stratagem right. If a BAs only way to beat a DE soup is to wing a cpt in to range and charge the desintegrator platforms turn one, and you can always stop the wings, it becomes game winning. Same with stoping a castellan standing up, from a pure points perspective it is killing an uber unit a second time for 4CP.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You have a 16.7% chance to save that wound. 20% is not correct.


For every 5 wounds that I would have caused I now need to make 6. Its a 20% increase in durability (if we ignore overkill).

Think of it this way. With a 4+++ save am I 50% more durable or 100% more durable?

With a 2+++ save am I 83.3% more durable or 500% more durable?

You have to consider that every wound saved can still be saved again so its actually

1/6 + (1/6)/6 + ((1/6)/6)/6) ... of which the limit is 1/5

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 12:55:02


 
   
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Douglas Bader






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have a 16.7% chance to save that wound. 20% is not correct.


No, it's absolutely correct because the durability effect is recursive. You have a 16.7% chance to save, but say you have a 10-wound model and roll 10 individual saves against 1-damage wounds. You save 1/6 of them, which effectively gives you 1.6666 additional wounds. Then you save another 1/6 of those wounds, adding another 0.27. Then you save another 1/6 of that 0.27. The end result is you add ~1.99 additional wounds to the 10-wound model, a 20% increase in durability.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
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