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2018/12/09 17:38:40
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Hello and good evening to all,
Wanted to ask with the current leaks and reviews of the Primaris marine line getting points drops pretty much across the board along with stormraven decreases and other units. How do people think the Primaris units will perform going forward?, will more competitive lists start to appear?, will pure primaris lists also become more competitive/popular?.
After watching the tabletop tactics ca review, they had quite high praise and thoughts on primaris after the changes so thought I would see what the fellow Dakkanaughts think .
Cheers
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2018/12/09 17:44:33
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I think, overall the message has been given - quite clearly, that the way forward is Primaris.
I don't run normal Space Marines but at a glance, almost all Primaris versions of characters are within a handful of points of the normal ones while showing slightly better stats. Basic Space Marines were tossed in a dumpster and covered in petrol in CA (at least the basic Tactical Marines). Primaris and indeed almost every other race getting cheaper/better, and they stayed static.
I think Primaris will absolutely have a heap of new models in the next six months (whenever the next wave shows up), and slooooowly but surely the points and efficiency of Primaris units will edge normal marine units out of the game. Fast forward 5-10 years, underwhelming units don't sell...kit sales drop...eventually they're justified to remove the kits from sale. (rules for the models, however will remain for a looong time)
A pure Primaris list is not currently super viable simply because Space Marines as a whole are still in a bit of trouble, but as their units become more fleshed out, it'll be "the" Space Marine army.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 17:45:38
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2018/12/09 17:49:36
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.
1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.
1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"
And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?
Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/09 17:51:38
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2018/12/09 18:09:48
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Well to be fair basic Marines have 10,000 years worth of fighitng to play in, plus a entire second rules set and compnay dedicated to them, they haev a truely vast array of modern plastic units that probably outnumber all other factions when you include all the snowflake units.
Continuing both Primaris and normal mariens with new models would likly make it imposible to get anything but marines for the forseeable future.
Primaris are likely to be the stars of the new Season but all the previous Seasons are available and there are even dedicated s[in off shows Just for marines.
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I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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2018/12/09 18:20:32
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
London, UK
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As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.
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2018/12/09 20:38:46
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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How has the stormraven decreased ? I may have missed it but it is 192 pts in the CA and 172 in the codex. No point changes except for the cyclon launchers and a mere 10 points for the lascannons
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2018/12/09 20:48:54
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Elbows wrote:I think, overall the message has been given - quite clearly, that the way forward is Primaris.
I don't run normal Space Marines but at a glance, almost all Primaris versions of characters are within a handful of points of the normal ones while showing slightly better stats. Basic Space Marines were tossed in a dumpster and covered in petrol in CA (at least the basic Tactical Marines). Primaris and indeed almost every other race getting cheaper/better, and they stayed static.
I think Primaris will absolutely have a heap of new models in the next six months (whenever the next wave shows up), and slooooowly but surely the points and efficiency of Primaris units will edge normal marine units out of the game. Fast forward 5-10 years, underwhelming units don't sell...kit sales drop...eventually they're justified to remove the kits from sale. (rules for the models, however will remain for a looong time)
A pure Primaris list is not currently super viable simply because Space Marines as a whole are still in a bit of trouble, but as their units become more fleshed out, it'll be "the" Space Marine army.
Very much this. Watching AoS bears this out. Older factions are slowly wasting away as they get outpaced by new releases, having their keyword synergy reduced etc.
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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2018/12/09 21:12:31
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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Also the Crimson Fists special detachment is good for primaris. It effectsr Primaris Characters, Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters
Strats:
1CP: Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 when shooting, it inflicts 2 hits instead of 1.
1CP: End of enemy Shooting phase. Pick a unit of yours that was targeted by an attack. That unit can immediately shoot.
Warlord Trait: re-roll hit rolls of 1 9" aura. Significant since it can go on any primaris character.
Relic: Bolt pistol. Pistol 2, S5, AP -1, D2. Each time you hit, you can immediately make another hit roll. These extra attacks cannot generate more.
This is really brutal. Hellblasters will wreck stuff with these strats. And you can give an apoth or librarian a re-roll hits aura instead of just a captain.
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Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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2018/12/09 21:55:44
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss
Italy
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XT-1984 wrote:As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.
Not every game is about aeldari vs imperium. There are several more factions in 40k.
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2018/12/09 22:17:16
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Lootas are almost as bad for primaris. So are necron destroyers. So are HSBCs. Etc.
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2018/12/09 23:29:28
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Well, moving forward, I am going to be attaching Mk III Chainswords to the backs of all of my Intercessor Sergeants that won't have Power Fists. Might as well get the free attack and the Mk III Chainswords are the only ones I can find that are sheathed.
I can't decide if I will just run one Battalion as a Liberator Strike Force, both Battalions as Liberator Strike Forces, or one Liberator Strike Force and one Indomitus Crusaders. I am definitely using the LSF with my 10-man Hellblaster Squad. Maybe using Field Commander to give the Warlord trait to something like a Primaris Apothecary to run behind them.
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5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts |
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2018/12/10 00:14:03
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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lolman1c wrote:It's not just CA, vigilus shows thsi as well... pretty much everyone got pretty standard meh fluffy rules but Primaris got the ability to take two traits and some awesome command points:
1 CP to let the stalker ones target characters.
1 CP to let the normal ones become Rapid fire 2. So if you get within 15" that's 4 shots per model.
1 CP to let the assault versions auto-hit within 12"
Nonsense. This formation is complete garbage, seeing you 'forgot' about 2 CP per unit minimum to even use it, stalker is bad, way too expensive, one shot only, and completely lacks bite, while auto bolter is just glorified normal bolter for way too many points. Yup, paying 3 CP (since you forgot that bit) to deal 6 more S4 AP- hits is sure great!
You also "forgot" that Sternguard with storm bolters, who are less expensive than primaris BTW, do 4 shots all the time, are cheaper, and don't cost 3 CP. Gee, standard SM are sure bad!
Literally the only OK primaris formation in Vigilus is the Crimson Fist one. Gee, that sure benefits all of two CF players on this board, and pushes primaris sales up...
And don't you think it's suspicious the battle forces came out with two different primaris box sets at the same time all the points dropped?
You mean the two box sets that are full of units that CAN'T use the above formation? These ones? Especially IF box seeing IF formation is primaris-free?
Please put your tinfoil hat on.
Hey, at least the devs didn't lie when they said standard marines "arn't going anywhere". They just actually meant they literally were not going anywhere forwards or backwards.
Yup, and that's why veteran standard marines got massive point cuts in CA and avesome new formations in Vigilus.
"Anywhere"?
Meanwhile, primaris Reivers and Hellblasters got nothing, their bodies being now more expensive than Intercessors for no reason whatsoever. These two are actually really going nowhere...
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2018/12/10 00:29:09
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
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Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
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2018/12/10 00:35:51
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Pandabeer wrote:Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.
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5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts |
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2018/12/10 00:40:32
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot
Canary Island (Spain)
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casvalremdeikun wrote:Pandabeer wrote:Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.
We will have it some day. It will be a next wave of Primaris, probably with a new Codex.
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2018/12/10 01:09:22
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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casvalremdeikun wrote:Pandabeer wrote:Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.
Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)
Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.
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"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 | |
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2018/12/10 01:19:55
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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NurglesR0T wrote: casvalremdeikun wrote:Pandabeer wrote:Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.
Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)
Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.
See, I don't want it to have the same weapons as the Repulsor. I wanted to have stuff like twin plasma incinerators or something like that. I would prefer it isn't just a small Repulsor.
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5250 pts
3850 pts
Deathwatch: 1500 pts
Imperial Knights: 375 pts
30K 2500 pts |
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2018/12/10 01:37:24
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Not to derail, but primaris (and all new models forward) are going to be easy to build, or at least like the Death Guard and Primaris kits, have their options limited, to screw with the 2nd hand bitz sellers and third party counts as.
You'll never get a Primaris with a meltagun. It will be some new weapon, moulded into an arm that only fits one particular marine torso.
I actually like the Primaris marines, but I dont think we will ever see any future releases that are like the multi part kits of old, with all the bitz and options to kitbash.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 01:39:25
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2018/12/10 02:05:31
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
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Newbie here, bought the Dark Imperium set and painted the Primaris Marines as Dark Angels, I won't be buying Azrael, or Sammael while I wait to see if they get the Marneus Calgar Primaris treatment, until then, I'll collect the Primaris units (Aggressors and Reivers) and will keep building my Death Guard Army
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2500 Points
2000 Points |
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2018/12/10 02:20:59
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant
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I love how by proxy, Chaos got punished by the Primaris bring-over. So far, unless you're running one of the four cults, cultists still outshine CSM by a small margin, even with the special weapons cost reduction.
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2018/12/10 02:42:51
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Nightlord1987 wrote:Not to derail, but primaris (and all new models forward) are going to be easy to build, or at least like the Death Guard and Primaris kits, have their options limited, to screw with the 2nd hand bitz sellers and third party counts as. You'll never get a Primaris with a meltagun. It will be some new weapon, moulded into an arm that only fits one particular marine torso. I actually like the Primaris marines, but I dont think we will ever see any future releases that are like the multi part kits of old, with all the bitz and options to kitbash.
I kinda agree. Given that Intercessors and Hellblasters have 3 different weapon options each, but they are all modeled pretty much the same, but with slightly different weapon add-ons You can get nothing but easy-build Intercessors have say they have Auto Bolt Rifles or Stalker Bolt rifles and no one would give them a second thought But I do feel this have far more to do with ease of weapon selection than "screwing with bitz sellers". New players will find it much easier to just play the models without having to spend as much thought on their loadout -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 02:44:13
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2018/12/10 02:46:03
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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casvalremdeikun wrote: NurglesR0T wrote: casvalremdeikun wrote:Pandabeer wrote:Pure Primaris lists will remain crap for competitive play until they get a transport that costs less than 300 points. Probably due to arrive sometime next year.
One can only hope. A Razorback equivalent. Min-Squad transport is more necessary than a giant gunboat like the Repulsor.
Keeping with the grav theme from the repulsor, I'd like to see a Landspeeder Storm lookalike that can carry 6 primaris (min squad and option for character)
Give it the option for a las talon or onslaught gatling canon and you have a "razorback" consistent with the primaris theme.
See, I don't want it to have the same weapons as the Repulsor. I wanted to have stuff like twin plasma incinerators or something like that. I would prefer it isn't just a small Repulsor.
Yeah I could see that as well as an option.
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"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 | |
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2018/12/10 04:07:19
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Illinois
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Blackie wrote: XT-1984 wrote:As long as Ravagers with Disintegrator cannons and Hemlocks with Heavy D-scythes exist Primaris Marines will always be sub par.
Not every game is about aeldari vs imperium. There are several more factions in 40k.
When you’ll have to play that match up at any tournament then it will always matter
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2018/12/10 04:38:33
Subject: Re:Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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The only reason to take primaris is for Arguably their troop choices. But thats about it. Their aggressors, inceptors, and hellblasters are far too expensive and perform poorly in close combat.
With the points cost reduction to Terminators it is far better to take them and sternguard over inceptors or aggressors. (Sternguard also have anti tank options and can go up to a full squad of 10 for less points than aggressors)
Primaris are awful by themselves. Why people keep pushing "They are the best thing." I will never understand. Striking a balance between normal marines and primaris is the key.
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From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. |
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2018/12/10 15:01:08
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Screaming Shining Spear
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I wouldn't say hellblasters are far too expensive, they're cheaper than dark reapers. Reapers have better weapons and ignore the heavy movement penalty but they have 3 toughness and a single wound so go down a lot easier. You can debate over the points cost of hellblasters sure, but they're not far off.
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2018/12/10 15:02:00
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Reapers never kill themselves. And are far more effective vs invuln saves, which are everywhere. Hellbasters are bad vs the field.
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2018/12/10 15:22:03
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Reapers don't need to kill themselves, they just wait for a stiff breeze to fall over.
I took a unit of ten in an alaitoc with the psykers to give them another -1 to hit and a 5 up feel no pain. Didn't make much difference against my ad mech, phosper equipped opponent. With reapers I expect them to last a round unless I can fire and fade away out of line of sight.
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2018/12/10 16:20:34
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Dakka Veteran
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I think significant cost reductions are on the horizon for primaris.
With the drops for Devs with plasma cannons, vets with storm bolters + storm shields hellblasters are straight up out performed significantly for less by a squad of 5 devs w/ plasma cannons. Aggressors compete poorly per point vs vets with storm bolters and storm shields. Hell John Woo plasma pistol vanguard vets cost about as much per plasma shot as plasma inceptors trading t5 for cheap ablative wounds and an immunity to multi-damage weapons.
Without a deepstrike strat (DW) or cheap transports primaris are not competitive.
And lol @ whoever is comparing hellblasters to reapers. If you think they die fast with -2 to hit and a 5 up FnP you haven't seen ravagers/endless fury/reapers/destroyers/any in meta shooting feast on hellblasters. Put reapers in a wave serpent/webway and profit. Lets not even get into Yanarri shenanigans...
Hellblasters are a joke unless they get w/in 15" and there is no way to do that cheaply or reliably at the moment. Aggressors are mediocre unless they can stay still and shoot bad armor save units w/in 18". Outside of that they are outperformed per point by so many other units in a bad SM codex.
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2018/12/10 17:28:03
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Fixture of Dakka
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Reapers are more comparable to PlasmaCannon Devs than Aggressors.
Aggressors are more like Wraithguard with cannons or Fire Dragons.
Also, I love how Reapers always get two Pskic powers from different Pskyers (Conceal, Fortune), and a Stratagem (LQR), but Aggressors get no support in your comparison.
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2018/12/10 17:32:16
Subject: Chapter Approved - The state of Primaris marines going forward
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Lol what support ? Marine powers suck.
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