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It never sat well with me that Harlies got their own book. Getting more units was great, but they'd never been portrayed as a stand alone force, but rather aided/allied other Aeldari to war.
Ynnari also need a massive overhaul.

So here is what I propose:
A new codex containing all the rules for the 3 Ynnari characters and all Harlie units.
In order to field these units, you MUST add them to either a Craftworld Eldar or Drukhari detachment, and only after the minimum units for the detachment have been filled with CWE or DE units.
The Ynnari Character and Harlequin units do not affect the detachments keywords for generating Traits and Stratagems, etc. Ynnari/Harliquin Stratagems can be added as well

Strength from Death is now just an Aura ability that the 3 Ynnari characters project to friendly AELDARI Infantry or Bike units.
Instead of doing an action twice for killing a unit, it could just add +1S or +1Atk or +1BS (your choice) at all times. I haven't worked this part out just yet, but you see where I'm going

Thoughts?

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Cat lady is just too cheap. +50 pts and +10 to the other two Ynnari chars, that may or may not leave open opportunity to un-nerf Dark Reapers and Shining Spears it'll almost definitely close the need for further nerfs on those units. The current problem is that taking lots of Ynnari units is discouraged by the inability to use the same soulburst action multiple times in a turn, so that leaves the powerful small Ynnari Detachments to make use of Soulburst. You balance these two forces by having HQs that are overpriced gatekeepers keeping those who wish to abuse the Ynnari Patrol away and the inability to spam the same action keep those who wish to abuse Ynnari across their entire force away.

 Galef wrote:
It never sat well with me that Harlies got their own book. Getting more units was great, but they'd never been portrayed as a stand alone force, but rather aided/allied other Aeldari to war.
Ynnari also need a massive overhaul.

So here is what I propose:
A new codex containing all the rules for the 3 Ynnari characters and all Harlie units.
In order to field these units, you MUST add them to either a Craftworld Eldar or Drukhari detachment, and only after the minimum units for the detachment have been filled with CWE or DE units.
The Ynnari Character and Harlequin units do not affect the detachments keywords for generating Traits and Stratagems, etc. Ynnari/Harliquin Stratagems can be added as well

Strength from Death is now just an Aura ability that the 3 Ynnari characters project to friendly AELDARI Infantry or Bike units.
Instead of doing an action twice for killing a unit, it could just add +1S or +1Atk or +1BS (your choice) at all times. I haven't worked this part out just yet, but you see where I'm going

Thoughts?

-

Doing just the Ynnari and the harlies feels a little bit awkward. That's sort of like doing a codex with just the deathwatch and the custodes in it. That said, I think an Agents of the Aeldari book that also includes rules for exodites, corsairs, maybe white seers, etc. could be a good way to go. Basically, make it a book of stuff that may or may not work as a standalone army but can also be splashed into other armies.

I'm fine with streamlining Strength From Death and ditching the bonus actions. The bonus actions did a good job of making the ynnari feel "invigorated" by the dead, but they've been a headache since Fall of Biel-Tan. That said, I don't think I care for a static aura buff. You lose the visceral flavor of having your powers tied directly to unit deaths, it doesn't really match the ynnari fluff (Ghost Warrior depicts Yvraine doing planet-wide death aura manipulation), and I'm not sure it really makes sense to assign a single stat to each of the ynnari characters. Plus, ynnari players have been wanting the option to field ynnari without the special characters since the start of 8th.

Rather than auras, perhaps just allow units to use Ynnari stratagems to receive certain bonuses (boosts to stats, rerolls, whatever). Then, make "Ynnari" a craftworld, masque, kabal, and cult with their "chapter tactic" being that you gain "whisper tokens" on a 5+ whever a unit dies anywhere on the table. Whisper tokens are just command points that can only be spent on Ynnari stratagems. Maybe give each of the Ynnari special characters a rule that adds +1 to rolls to generate whisper tokens when a ynnari unit dies (for a total of generating tokens on a 2+ if you field all 3 of the special characters). Word of the Phoenix would probably become , "Generate 1 whisper token" or something.

That would get rid of the bonus action complications while still tying Strength From Death to, er, death. Plus, it leaves the special characters as big enhancers of a ynnari army's main gimmick while also freeing us up to not field them unless we want to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
Cat lady is just too cheap. +50 pts and +10 to the other two Ynnari chars...

Eh. I don't know. Cat Lady doesn't really do much on her own. She basically just gives you the easiest access to a soulburst in the codex, especially for ranged units like dark reapers, because being within 7" to benefit from SfD is actually kind of tough for most units. Because her main contribution is basically to take an extra action, the challenge becomes making that a balanced mechanic in the first place. I'd argue that ynnari in general already pay so much both in points and in other things that they give up that shining spears and dark reapers are the only units that can consistently benefit from being ynnari. Reapers because of their powerful ranged attacks, and spears because they can benefit from moving, shooting, fighting, or sometimes even charging where other units have a tougher time making use of those. What I'm getting at is that upping the cost of ynnari seems more likely to make them even more monobuildy unless you make them so costly that they stop being efficient, at which point you just stop playing them entirely. Not really a desirable result. As for upping the other two by 10 points, well, I'd be surprised if 10 or 20 points is the exact amount needed to balance the faction. Especially considering the visarch isn't considered very powerful to beginw ith at the moment.

that may or may not leave open opportunity to un-nerf Dark Reapers and Shining Spears it'll almost definitely close the need for further nerfs on those units.

Partially agree. I quite like reapers at their current price tag. Too much more, and you'd be paying ravager prices for 3 wounds at toughness 3 and a max of 9 damage. At their current price, a small squad is useful but fragile, and a large squad powerful but costly (especially after you factor in psyker and stratagem support). Spears are a lot less scary when they're not ynnari, but a few points here or there probably won't radically change their performance.

The current problem is that taking lots of Ynnari units is discouraged by the inability to use the same soulburst action multiple times in a turn, so that leaves the powerful small Ynnari Detachments to make use of Soulburst. You balance these two forces by having HQs that are overpriced gatekeepers keeping those who wish to abuse the Ynnari Patrol away and the inability to spam the same action keep those who wish to abuse Ynnari across their entire force away.

Yeah. Those are all problems with the ynnari that I'd like to see ammended. I don't feel our HQs are all that unreasonably priced (Yvraine fights like a sub-optimal archon and casts like a sub-optimal farseer when she isn't throwing Word of the Phoenix around). We shouldn't be trying to fix busted mechanics by pricing them out of usefulness or making them unusable as part of a full ynnari force; we should be seeking to make an all-ynnari force desirable without also allowing it to be broken.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Cat Lady doesn't really do much on her own. She basically just gives you the easiest access to a soulburst in the codex, especially for ranged units like dark reapers, because being within 7" to benefit from SfD is actually kind of tough for most units. Because her main contribution is basically to take an extra action, the challenge becomes making that a balanced mechanic in the first place. I'd argue that ynnari in general already pay so much both in points and in other things that they give up that shining spears and dark reapers are the only units that can consistently benefit from being ynnari. Reapers because of their powerful ranged attacks, and spears because they can benefit from moving, shooting, fighting, or sometimes even charging where other units have a tougher time making use of those. What I'm getting at is that upping the cost of ynnari seems more likely to make them even more monobuildy unless you make them so costly that they stop being efficient, at which point you just stop playing them entirely. Not really a desirable result. As for upping the other two by 10 points, well, I'd be surprised if 10 or 20 points is the exact amount needed to balance the faction. Especially considering the visarch isn't considered very powerful to beginw ith at the moment.

that may or may not leave open opportunity to un-nerf Dark Reapers and Shining Spears it'll almost definitely close the need for further nerfs on those units.

Partially agree. I quite like reapers at their current price tag. Too much more, and you'd be paying ravager prices for 3 wounds at toughness 3 and a max of 9 damage. At their current price, a small squad is useful but fragile, and a large squad powerful but costly (especially after you factor in psyker and stratagem support). Spears are a lot less scary when they're not ynnari, but a few points here or there probably won't radically change their performance.

The current problem is that taking lots of Ynnari units is discouraged by the inability to use the same soulburst action multiple times in a turn, so that leaves the powerful small Ynnari Detachments to make use of Soulburst. You balance these two forces by having HQs that are overpriced gatekeepers keeping those who wish to abuse the Ynnari Patrol away and the inability to spam the same action keep those who wish to abuse Ynnari across their entire force away.

Yeah. Those are all problems with the ynnari that I'd like to see ammended. I don't feel our HQs are all that unreasonably priced (Yvraine fights like a sub-optimal archon and casts like a sub-optimal farseer when she isn't throwing Word of the Phoenix around). We shouldn't be trying to fix busted mechanics by pricing them out of usefulness or making them unusable as part of a full ynnari force; we should be seeking to make an all-ynnari force desirable without also allowing it to be broken.

I'm not sure how firing 10 Dark Reapers in the Psychic phase isn't strong enough.Making an all Ynnari list good is really hard when 3 Black Heart Ravagers unlock Drukhari Strats that your Ynnari otherwise wouldn't have, same for a Farseer and a couple of Warlocks unlocking Craftworld Strats for your Ynnarri Shining Spears.

Including Exodites and White Seers in a Ynnari book is a brilliant idea, but I'd leave the clowns on their own.

I mostly play mono-Harlies, so obviously I'm biased here, but I really don't see a basis for downgrading harlies like that.
Apart from the fact that 8th ed. is all about having allies in separate detachments, with your proposed rules the Harlequin units wouldn't generate any CPs anymore. That's a huge nerf.
Also, how would you handle their masque rules/stratagems? Create yet another rule to say that you count their keywords separatly from the CWE/DE ones? It's a very convoluted way of doing it. A simple, and rougly similar rule would be "To include a harlequin detachment to your army, you need to have a similar one but with CWE or DE keyword. Also, your Harlequin detachment doesn't generate CPs, because you should just play with your corsair friends".

On the Ynnari front, I agree it's a hot mess. At this point, I think the easiest thing to do is to say that only the 3 characters have SfD (and keep it as is). Adding them to detachment doesn't break anything (like phoenix lords).

fresus wrote:
I mostly play mono-Harlies, so obviously I'm biased here, but I really don't see a basis for downgrading harlies like that.
Apart from the fact that 8th ed. is all about having allies in separate detachments, with your proposed rules the Harlequin units wouldn't generate any CPs anymore. That's a huge nerf.
Also, how would you handle their masque rules/stratagems? Create yet another rule to say that you count their keywords separatly from the CWE/DE ones? It's a very convoluted way of doing it. A simple, and rougly similar rule would be "To include a harlequin detachment to your army, you need to have a similar one but with CWE or DE keyword. Also, your Harlequin detachment doesn't generate CPs, because you should just play with your corsair friends".

I guess my reasoning is that Harliequins have only recently had additional units added and their own Codex. For decades they were just 1 unit entry in the Eldar Codex, then later the same unit entry was added to the DE Codex
It was just a Troupe with Troupe Master as a unit leader and possible upgraded for 1 Shadowseer and/or 1 DJ.

I like the new entries and that they got expanded a bit, but they were NEVER meant as a stand-alone force. "Mono-Harlies" shouldn't be a thing. At all.
Heck, when their first Codex dropped in 7E, they didn't have an HQ at all, which meant you could only take them in their special Formations, so most players still took a CAD of something (usually Eldar or DE). So that's further evidence that they aren't meant to be a stand alone force.
But I do like your suggestion that if an Aeldari Army wants to include Harlies, it does so by taking a Harlie detachment "of equal or lesser value" that the initial CWE/DE "primary" detachment

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Leave Harlies as their own (mini) codex.

Bin soulburst.

Redo Ynnari as Aeldari Deathwatch with accompanying mixed unit rules.

Profit.

Sterling191 wrote:
Leave Harlies as their own (mini) codex.

Bin soulburst.

Redo Ynnari as Aeldari Deathwatch with accompanying mixed unit rules.

Profit.

I pretty much agree, so I'll tweak my proposal as such:

Rerelease the Harlequin codex, but add that at least 1 CWE or DE detachment must be taken to include any further Harlequin detachments. For Matched play at least

Then include the 3 Ynnari characters in that same book with added rule:
"Any/all of the 3 Ynnari characaters can be added to any Aeldari detachment* and will not affect the detachment's units from benefiting from their Faction traits, such as <Craftworld>, <Kabal>, etc." *except those that include Avatar of Khaine, <Coven> units, etc
Make Strength from Death a Stratagem that allows 1 Aeldari unit a second action if a unit dies near them. 2-3CPs

Done. If the Harlie Codex can include a Fortification that can be added to Aeldari lists, why not Ynnari? It would make the Codex feel more "full"
And as much as I would like Exodites/Corsairs, there are already FAR too many 40k factions.

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But Galef, what problem are you trying to solve, regarding Harlequins? How is the current implementation problematic?
I would argue that the current implementation is actually perfect for 8th ed. : a single infantry box gives you a patrol detachement. Add a transport and you have a functional add-on for your other eldars, which can also be used to add whichever Harlequin unit you fancy. So if all you want is to add a very small force to an existing eldar army (because you feel like this is how it should be played), nothing stops you from doing it. So why do you want to screw people who enjoy having just clowns on the battlefield?

fresus wrote:
But Galef, what problem are you trying to solve, regarding Harlequins? How is the current implementation problematic?
I would argue that the current implementation is actually perfect for 8th ed. : a single infantry box gives you a patrol detachement. Add a transport and you have a functional add-on for your other eldars, which can also be used to add whichever Harlequin unit you fancy. So if all you want is to add a very small force to an existing eldar army (because you feel like this is how it should be played), nothing stops you from doing it. So why do you want to screw people who enjoy having just clowns on the battlefield?

Not trying to solve any balance issue for Harlies, but more of a theme issue.
Lots of "armies' have come out recently that should never have been stand-alone. I realize it's futile to try and fix all of them, but since:
A) Harlies have very few units to merit a "full" codex and
B) Ynnari need to be fixed

I figured I could kill 2 cyber-eagles with 1 shuriken.
Otherwise it means Ynnari will remain Index options or have their own Codex, adding yet more bloat to 40K

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Harlequins shouldn't be forced into needing other armies like that, seeing as they ate fleshed out and legit have most of the tools they need bar a few (Mimes for Infiltration please!)

So basically what I am hearing is that I should ignore all the prior fluff stating that Harlies merely muster other Aeldari to war and assist them, but never fight on their own (aside from guarding the Black Library) and accept the new fluff that lets you do whatever. Just like Custodes, Knights GSC, etc.

Ok. But where does it end? When will we be getting Codex: Windriders or Codex: Dreadnoughts? Or some equally ridiculous expanded Codex for a unit that should remain a simple unit entry or 2 for a larger Faction?
I mean, we're already at about two dozen Factions. What a couple hundred more?

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Army themes, and what constitutes an army, are very subjective.

If Harlequins were folded into the CWE codex, would you have a problem with someone who would build an army using just Harlequin units? And if so, do you also have problems with people only using a sub-set of their codex to build their force? And how would that be different than playing a mono-jetbikes army. Surely jetbikes were never meant to be a standalone army.

To me the only thing that really matters on that issue is balance. Do we consider the Harlequin codex as a standalone codex, which should be balanced against all the other ones, or do we consider that Aeldari as a whole are what needs to be balanced vs other things. The current implementation of allies makes it clear that at the moment, only the most general keyword matters for balance, so this point is moot.

And if Harlequins were ever to be brought back within the other two bigger codex, I would prefer if it were done like the Militarum Tempestus: a special regiment within a bigger book (and the Harlies would be able to be added that way to either CWE or DE). And at the same time, corsairs could be added in a way that is similar to Auxilia in the IG codex, or scourges in the DE one.

 Galef wrote:
So basically what I am hearing is that I should ignore all the prior fluff stating that Harlies merely muster other Aeldari to war and assist them, but never fight on their own (aside from guarding the Black Library) and accept the new fluff that lets you do whatever. Just like Custodes, Knights GSC, etc.

Ok. But where does it end? When will we be getting Codex: Windriders or Codex: Dreadnoughts? Or some equally ridiculous expanded Codex for a unit that should remain a simple unit entry or 2 for a larger Faction?
I mean, we're already at about two dozen Factions. What a couple hundred more?

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Honestly you can make an entire army of Dreadnoughts and nobody would bat an eye.

Harlequins have plenty enough units. They just lack a screening unit, and then they would be good to go. The Masques are cool overall, with only the LD one really being disappointing because of everyone ignoring it still and then The Veiled Path flat out sucks. Relics are also nice.

Look at the DE book. It's practically a combined codex of Kabals, Covens, and Cults. All three happen to headquarter in the same city, though.

I'd rather see Harlies, Corsairs, and Ynnari be auxillia for DE or CWE, whether or not you prevent DE and CWE from souping. So being in a seperate book would be ideal.

Ok, moving on from any Harlie changes. Obviously I have to give up any hope that 40K won't be a bloated mess of too dang many factions and players should be able to take whatever they want, even if it makes no sense from "traditional" narratives.

On to Ynnari. What do you all think about my suggestions for them?
They certainly shouldn't get their own book just for 3 Characers, unless is actually has specific datasheets for units they can take, rather than pulling from CWE/DE and Harlies.
I'd prefer just the 3 Characters being able to be added to existing Aeldari detachments, giving nearby Aeldari units buffs from Auras & Psychic Powers and SFD just being a Strat rather than a rule any unit can use for "free".

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I actually like the basic idea of Ynnari quite a lot (pre-battle brothers): mix all the Aeldari units together, and everyone gets an unifying rule, and looses the rule them makes them different. Quite fluffy, and it's fun to have a new way to play existing units.

The problem is what SfD actually does. Free activation is insane, and impossible to balance easily. To have it work properly, you would need some type of ressource mecanism (like SoB are getting in CA), and a point cost that reflects it (i.e. not the same point cost for units that are taken as part of an Ynnari detachment).
So you either need to rework all the point costs, or create a new rule to replace it. In any case, it's a ton of work. I don't think GW will put that work in, unless they have something to sell. So if Ynnari get a new line of minis, then they'll probably get their own codex, and hopefully something quite different than current SfD.

On the topic of what we can actually fix easily, I think the only way is to drop the whole "loose your special stuff to become Ynnari" thing. If you loose your faction trait + PfP/Rising Crescendo/Battle focus, you need something quite powerful in return, and I don't see what that could be.
So I think we have to treat the Ynnari characters just like Phoenix lords/Scourges/Incubi: you add them to a detachement, they don't affect keywords and stuff. They're the only ones with SfD (so it shouldn't be too bad), and voila. Not a great fix, doesn't make them competitive, but at least Yvraine doesn't cause huge balance issues because of her one psychic power.

 Galef wrote:


On to Ynnari. What do you all think about my suggestions for them?
...
I'd prefer just the 3 Characters being able to be added to existing Aeldari detachments, giving nearby Aeldari units buffs from Auras & Psychic Powers and SFD just being a Strat rather than a rule any unit can use for "free".

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As mentioned above, I don't really like the idea of ynnari's "thing" just being a conventional aura or a psychic buff. At that point, you may as well just stick to playing non-ynnari. There needs to be a connection to stuff dying or some other gimmick that gets across their unique flavor. Also, making SFD a stratagem that triggers on enemy death doesn't really fix most of the issues with it. You make it expensive enough and challenging enough to trigger that it will come up less, and the range restriction fixes the Reaper problem, but you'll still have the confusion of out-of-sequence actions. Plus, it will still be inadvisable to run more than a patrol of Ynnari because a single stratagem that impacts one unit and some auras that require you to bubble up will encourage focusing on a couple ynnari units rather than a full army.

I actually kind of like the idea of getting rid of the "bonus actions" angle entirely. The fluff appeal of the ynnari isn't that they pull the trigger of their guns an extra time; it's that they're invigorated by the souls of their fallen comrades, growing more powerful and defiant even as their foes tear them apart. Having just started skimming Chapter Approved, I'd be inclined to rip off Acts of Faith a little bit. Something like...

* Make a craftworld, masque, kabal, and cult for ynnari. Units with the mandrake or coven keywords or that include an Avatar of Khaine may not be Ynnari detachments.
* If your army contains any Ynnari detachments, start the game with X Whisper Points
* Gain a WP each time a ynnari unit dies.
* Gain a WP on a 4+ when a ynnari unit kills an enemy unit within 7". These methods of WP generation are basically your chapter tactics.
* Have "Boons of Ynnead" that you use at specific times and spend a corresponding amount of WP to use. Let these boons be used multiple times in a given turn and without an activation roll (which Acts of Faith has), but make them a bit more costly so as not to overshadow sisters. Boons might include...

--Move an extra 3" in your own movement phase. Costs 1WP.
--Cast an extra psychic power in your own psychic phase. Costs 2WP.
--Add +2 to a psychic test after you fail it. Costs 2WP.
--Add +1 to your to-hit rolls in the shooting phase. Costs 2 WP.
--Roll 3d6 as part of a charge roll, and charge units up to 18" away in your own charge phase. Costs 3WP (because this is quite useful for charging out of deepstrike).
--Count as having charged in either player's fight phase. Costs 2WP.
--Double your Attacks characteristic in either player's fight phase. Costs 3WP.
--Autopass morale in either player's morale phase. Costs 2WP

* Lower the WC of Word of the Phoenix to 5 or 6, and change it's effect to, "Gain 1d3 WP."
* Do something with the visarch, 'cause he's just not super impressive at the moment.

With those changes, you...
--Eliminate out-of-sequence actions
--Retain the feeling of being invigorated by the deaths happening around you
--Can add ynnari special characters into ynnari detachments, but don't have to.
--Curb the power level of some of the most problematic soul burst actions (moving on shining spears, shooting on reapers) while also making some soulburst actions (charging) stronger.
--Speed up the ynnari turn slightly. instead of rolling extra pools of dice when shooting, you just roll the pool once and miss less. Instead of picking up a unit to move them a second time, you just move further the first time. Instead of piling in, fighting and consolidating a second time after remembering to declare everyone who matters as a target of your charge, you just punch the first target(s) of your fight phase harder.
*Incentivize taking an entire army of ynnari because you want to farm those sweet sweet whisper points.