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2018/12/17 16:10:12
Subject: [2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Hey all,
This is my first try at making a Deathwatch army. I had Marines in the past (GK, White Scars), but it has been a while. Since my purchasing in my Aeldari factions is done, at least for now, I'm looking around for my next faction to start collecting. My only Imperial faction right now is Sisters, but they are kind of in a bad spot currently, at least as a main army, so until they get new models they're going to need a lot of allies.
I've decided on Deathwatch or Custodes, but I think I like the flavor of Deathwatch better. The issue I'm having is they have so many options so I need some advice from some veterans on what is effective and what isn't. I like to have a general list made up before I start buying and building random stuff. Here's the list:
Questions:
1: Combi plasma, seems like a great deal, only 1ppm more than regular plasma. I imagine usually only using the plasma, but if you really need to crank up the firepower you could fire both profiles at the risk of increased self casualties. Am I missing something?
2: Redemptor Dreads: Good or not? I don't like the look of classic or vet dreads. Issue I'm concerned with is target saturation. They'd be my only vehicles so every anti-tank weapon would be going for them, they might not last long, especially without an invuln. Would it be better just to drop them and get more boots on the ground? I keep having the feeling that another plasma vet squad and Stalker squad with a third Battalion or something might be a better choice. The vision of 3 of those monsters with a Watch Master seems like it could be pretty potent though.
3: Bikes? I like the idea, they just don't have many options other than driving around with bolters and SIA.
4: The Sisters job is to screen if needed, supply Psychic defense if needed, and supply more CPs. The Faithful 17.
5: Are Frag Cannons pretty good? Seems like the profile is decent, thought I'd give them a whirl.
6: Any other glaring errors or newbie mistakes?
Appreciate all the help in advance. Any advice is welcome, I'm sure I need all the help I can get.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/17 16:19:19
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2018/12/18 13:26:49
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Youre gonna struggle against armor. Massed plasma will only get you so far (and with only one plas team I wouldnt even call it massed). In theory you could deliver them via teleport, but with good screening you're unlikely to get them dropping where you need them. Same with your frag cannons.
Bikes post-CA are in a very good place IMO. But they need to be combat squadded down from Vets to really shine (ideally in combination with a pair of VanVets for skirmish shenanigans and Storm Shield coverage).
2018/12/18 14:06:40
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
What solutions do you normally take for anti-armor?
Also for combat squading the bikes, would that normally be 5 vets, 2 vanguard, 3 bikes?
If I don't take the Dreads I've also considered taking another Watch Cap rather than the Watch Master, to get another smash cap to help with armor, would that be a good idea?
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2018/12/18 14:29:36
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
It's still early in the post-CA cycle, but I'm currently tucking a missile launcher into each of my Stalker Vet teams, as well as using a pair of 10-man Intercessor/Hellblaster squads with a host of ML/LC VenDreads. The Dreads are gonna attract fire like nobody's business if they're the only non-infantry youve got, so also consider investing in the Aegis with a camping Captain to give them the 5++
Also for combat squading the bikes, would that normally be 5 vets, 2 vanguard, 3 bikes?
Ayup. At just over 100 points its an exquisite skirmisher and objective grabber (since it inherits Objective Secured). Up to 16 SIA shots out to 15 inches (14 if you drop stormies on the VanVets), plus the capacity to charge, fall back, shoot and charge again makes it a fantastic disruptive element if you can get it into your opponent's backfield or flanks.
If I don't take the Dreads I've also considered taking another Watch Cap rather than the Watch Master, to get another smash cap to help with armor, would that be a good idea?
Personally I'm not a fan of smash cappies, but their usefullness isnt in question IMO. It's more of a flavor thing, but if you can get them in they can do good work.
2018/12/19 18:19:30
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Thanks for the advice so far. I've also been reading through the Deathwatch tactics thread but haven't gotten to the current discussions so I might be a little behind the times still.
Wrote up a new list, has some more plasma and Frag cannons to try to compensate for anti-vehicle shortcomings. Seems like it should be a good starting point.
Still not a spectacular anti-vehicle presence, but Knights are become a little less prevalent in my area. I helps that my other army is Harlequin based Aeldari so I've slowly been crushing the will to live out of knight players for the last few months.
The Termie Captain is an option I think I like, tougher than a jumper and can drop in to buff teleporium units without without using CPs. Initially had a combi-plas on him but melting his own face off would be pretty embarrassing, even with his inate reroll.
I spread out the Frag Cannons a bit and added 2 more. What's not to like about a super flamer/autocannon/lascannon thingy.
Added more Primaris, I considered adding an inceptor to one but IMO those models are the worst in the Primaris range so I'd rather not take any if it can be avoided.
Terminators for catching garbage fire, vanguard for falling back and shooting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 18:20:35
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2018/12/19 18:22:08
Subject: [2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
For your VanVets, go Pistol/Storm Shield. The pistol tax is gone, and with SIA they can contribute to shooting out to 15" without losing any efficacy in fighting (since pistols can shoot while engaged).
2018/12/19 21:11:37
Subject: [2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Sterling191 wrote: For your VanVets, go Pistol/Storm Shield. The pistol tax is gone, and with SIA they can contribute to shooting out to 15" without losing any efficacy in fighting (since pistols can shoot while engaged).
That's a good point. I think a sword and board VanVet just has 'the look', but a pistol and shield VanVet is a little more effective.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2018/12/21 05:30:09
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
I would suggest the following for your veteran squads:
1 VV for falling back and shooting
1 Sergeant, he's free
1 Blackshield; Heroic Intervention for the whole unit is a tricky thing that won't come up every game, but will completely catch people off guard
1-2 Terminators per 10 man; You get to choose how wounds allocate until a term is damaged, meaning you can tank no AP on the terms, and everything else on the stormshields. This makes your unit ridiculously hard to kill for the points.
3-5 Stormshields; Again, makes it hard for them to clear you
2 Frag Cannon; I have cleared a unit of 6 Wulfen on Overwatch before with my Watch Master / Mission Tactics, getting the flamer profile with these (2d6 S6 -1 Autohits on Overwatch Each). they are ridiculous
Other Guns: I suggest loading up on Stormbolters only, and relying on other things for Heavy AT. This means that the primary threat your squad is there to eliminate are hordes, any and all monsters, and light T6/T7 Vehicles.
For your knight killers, I suggest a blood angel detachment with Mephiston and a Smash Captain, and three units of scouts. You plop all the Blood angel gak on that smash captain and buff him with might of heroes, he's dealing like 28 wounds on average to a knight (Fighting Twice). Mephiston fully buffed also wrecks knights at 23 wounds on average fighting twice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just put bolt pistols on my VanVets. I'd rather be jumping around shooting stuff than be in combat. On the Terms, I found the points for power fists but if you don't have the points go cheap with mauls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 05:31:17
2018/12/21 06:10:14
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
1 VV for falling back and shooting
1 Sergeant, he's free
1 Blackshield; Heroic Intervention for the whole unit is a tricky thing that won't come up every game, but will completely catch people off guard
1-2 Terminators per 10 man; You get to choose how wounds allocate until a term is damaged, meaning you can tank no AP on the terms, and everything else on the stormshields. This makes your unit ridiculously hard to kill for the points.
3-5 Stormshields; Again, makes it hard for them to clear you
2 Frag Cannon; I have cleared a unit of 6 Wulfen on Overwatch before with my Watch Master / Mission Tactics, getting the flamer profile with these (2d6 S6 -1 Autohits on Overwatch Each). they are ridiculous
Other Guns: I suggest loading up on Stormbolters only, and relying on other things for Heavy AT. This means that the primary threat your squad is there to eliminate are hordes, any and all monsters, and light T6/T7 Vehicles.
For your knight killers, I suggest a blood angel detachment with Mephiston and a Smash Captain, and three units of scouts. You plop all the Blood angel gak on that smash captain and buff him with might of heroes, he's dealing like 28 wounds on average to a knight (Fighting Twice). Mephiston fully buffed also wrecks knights at 23 wounds on average fighting twice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just put bolt pistols on my VanVets. I'd rather be jumping around shooting stuff than be in combat. On the Terms, I found the points for power fists but if you don't have the points go cheap with mauls.
Thanks for all the advice, a lot of it is similar to conclusions I've been coming to as I rework my list over and over again and read through the tactics forum.
The VV are definite inclusions for obvious reasons
Termies should be a huge increase in squad survivability as well, especially when coupled with 4-5 shields.
I'm also loving Frag Cannons as well, at least in a good portion of squads. The combo of some AT ability with impressive output on overwatch makes it a steal for the points. My other army is Eldar so I definitely understand the utility of auto hit weapons.
There are a couple other squad types I'm liking the idea of as well, including the Stalker/Bike combo vet squad, and a couple Fortis squads. I'll still be going heavier into Vets rather than Primaris, but I do think Primaris can fill a role.
As to the Blood Angel detatchment, it would be better than the Sisters, but is also double the points. Since this is essentially my first foray back into Marines I'll likely just be focusing on building up one Chapter initially, and I already have the Sisters. But if I get to the point where I want to get these guys competitive then BA may find their way into the list.
New updated list. The thing I'm liking about Deathwatch is there are so many different combos, and you never seem to have enough space to fit everything in.
If the intent of the secondary battallion is simply CP and maybe some objective holding, consider AdMech. Post-CA you can put down a larger number of bodies with longer range guns for cheaper than the Sisters blob you're using.
Pre-CA Blackshields were auto-takes but now that they're more expensive I'm not entirely sold. Plus the Heroic Intervention is mandatory, which I know isnt that big a deal with VVs on the board, but there are absolutely armies that will abuse that to pull your squads into combat without having to eat Frag Cannon overwatch.
2018/12/21 15:29:52
Subject: [2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Sterling191 wrote: If the intent of the secondary battallion is simply CP and maybe some objective holding, consider AdMech. Post-CA you can put down a larger number of bodies with longer range guns for cheaper than the Sisters blob you're using.
Pre-CA Blackshields were auto-takes but now that they're more expensive I'm not entirely sold. Plus the Heroic Intervention is mandatory, which I know isnt that big a deal with VVs on the board, but there are absolutely armies that will abuse that to pull your squads into combat without having to eat Frag Cannon overwatch.
That's what I was thinking when I was reading the Black shield rules, I'm sure occasionally it might be nice to intervene, but I'd generally think overwatch would get me better damage output. You do get a little extra movement out of intervening though.
The Sisters are also there for anti-psychic abilities, as well as backfield objectives and CPs. If I take an extra Relic (the Brazier) I get 4 Deny attempts plus the Strat for a deny on a 4+. Choosing a secondary Battalion can be tough. Guard and Ad Mech are cheaper but have better firepower. BA are better for bashing Knights. Sisters for Psychic protection.
Theoretically I could drop a vet squad and fit in a tertiary Battalion of something, starting the game with 18 CPs and more boots on the ground.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
2018/12/21 15:34:38
Subject: [2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
I havent had a chance to dig into the beta 'dex for them yet, so I'm used to Sisters only having the super sword as an option. That certainly changes the equation for Deny support. My brain is suddenly going to a Sisters Supreme Command with Combi-Plas Cannonesses to give a self-healing Deny bubble for ~160 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 16:07:48
2018/12/21 16:32:14
Subject: Re:[2000] - Deathwatch + Sororitas - First try Deathwatch, need advice
Yeah, psychic defenses and Invuln auras are main things Sister do well right now. The invuln auras require more investment, but the psy defenses are easy to set up with less effort.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...