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Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I hear a lot today about Masculinity. How its in crisis. Men apparently dont know which way to go. Men are the cause of all todays problems. Men are privilidged, the patriarchy etc etc.


As a forum most likely featuring a majority of male members, I'm interested in your views on this subject.

is masculinity in crisis? if so what can we do to improve it?

do we need to reject traditional ideas of masculinity? are they 'toxic?'

Do men need to talk about their feelings more, or is it Ok to suppress them in certain situations?

Does GW (and other mainly male oriented media like video games) propagate ideas of that toxic masculinity in its portrayal of space marines, etc? (no female SM talk please, that is covered elsewhere)

Personally I think that masculinity is in a sort of crisis, but not in the way portrayed by the media. I think the modern man is forced to suppress a lot of the good masculine qualities he posesses, and as a result, often engages in alternative outputs which propagate the idea of toxicity which is then jumped on by the media.

I believe that masculinity is vitally important for any culture, and to dismiss it as unnecessary is folly.

There are so many links to things related to this, so I just picked a few that I thought were pertinent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45908983

https://medium.com/s/man-interrupted/why-we-must-stop-saying-toxic-masculinity-cfe83b9034dc

This one sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/celebrate-masks-masculinity/



Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

I think "masculinity" and "femininity" are, to a large degree, social constructs. Like much of modern society, they may well have had some specific, evolutionary origin far back in the mists of time, but their perpetuation long ago became much more a matter of tradition socialised into children at a young age and reinforced by social expectations.

I think boiling down something as complex as a human being to one of two standardised "blocks" of behaviours and traits is ludicrously reductive and essentialist.

That said, I also think criticism of power and behaviour has become excessively gendered of late. Patriarchy is only one facet of the Power Hierarchy, and characterising negative behaviours which are universal among the powerful as male because the present structure of society tends towards men being more powerful is short-sighted and counter productive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 10:53:58


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

It's honestly something that I don't even consider at all.
I just go through each day being me.
I don't care about being masculine or what some people think about me because of my genetic gender.
I have no interest in activities that make you a man (like getting drunk and beating up old ladies) and if a woman scoffs at me for politely holding a door open I close it and walk away.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






You first need to explore what is meant by Toxic Masculinity.

Simply being male, is not a toxic experience. Being into traditionally blokey/manly interests and pursuits, is not in itself toxic.

What is meant (in very broad terms) by toxic is when you can't simply be yourself, for fear of not being seen as masculine, and worse, possibly being seen as feminine.

Look at the Incel nonsense. That? That is a prime example of toxic masculinity. It engenders a feeling of worthlessness and resentment that you're not a strapping 6' beefcake that apparently is the only thing women find attractive. That leads into the sneaking suspicion/full blown paranoia that women only want you for your resources, and will cheat on you at a moments notice.

That is incredibly toxic to the individual, and to society.

Me? I've mostly had it alright. Through absolutely no effort, I'm 6'2", 17 stone without being tubby, full beard, thick head of hair (which I admit I dye, rather look like Hagrid than Gandalf myself). I've also got a good job (luck and hard work there) which more than pays the bills, and have a sufficiently large flat to have a permanent lodger, which means more money for me as well.

Yet even I have fallen victim to the toxic side this year, when due to the general 'Men Don't Talk About That', I wound up signed off work for three months with stress, depression and anxiety. I've since sought help, received help, continue to receive help, and am back at work.

Nobody but the most raving of nutters are saying masculinity is in itself toxic. There's nowt wrong with being a big manly man. But when you feel that's what you must be? That's when the problems come in.

   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You first need to explore what is meant by Toxic Masculinity.

Simply being male, is not a toxic experience. Being into traditionally blokey/manly interests and pursuits, is not in itself toxic.

What is meant (in very broad terms) by toxic is when you can't simply be yourself, for fear of not being seen as masculine, and worse, possibly being seen as feminine.

Look at the Incel nonsense. That? That is a prime example of toxic masculinity. It engenders a feeling of worthlessness and resentment that you're not a strapping 6' beefcake that apparently is the only thing women find attractive. That leads into the sneaking suspicion/full blown paranoia that women only want you for your resources, and will cheat on you at a moments notice.

That is incredibly toxic to the individual, and to society.

Me? I've mostly had it alright. Through absolutely no effort, I'm 6'2", 17 stone without being tubby, full beard, thick head of hair (which I admit I dye, rather look like Hagrid than Gandalf myself). I've also got a good job (luck and hard work there) which more than pays the bills, and have a sufficiently large flat to have a permanent lodger, which means more money for me as well.

Yet even I have fallen victim to the toxic side this year, when due to the general 'Men Don't Talk About That', I wound up signed off work for three months with stress, depression and anxiety. I've since sought help, received help, continue to receive help, and am back at work.

Nobody but the most raving of nutters are saying masculinity is in itself toxic. There's nowt wrong with being a big manly man. But when you feel that's what you must be? That's when the problems come in.


Absolutely. This is bang on. I don't understand the whole incel thing. surely thats a self deprecating circle? My problem comes when you have elements of society saying tings along the lines of 'oh if men just cried more' 'if men just opened up about their feelings.' as if that would solve all problems.

I believe that sometimes it is necessary to hide certain things. for example, being in the military, I've learnt that its necessary to hide things that upset or offend you because if you dont someone will use them on you.

I'm all for men talking about emotional things and feelings.. I do it with my partner in the privacy of my own home. What I feel wont help is men breaking down into tears over every little thing in public.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yodhrin wrote:
I think "masculinity" and "femininity" are, to a large degree, social constructs. Like much of modern society, they may well have had some specific, evolutionary origin far back in the mists of time, but their perpetuation long ago became much more a matter of tradition socialised into children at a young age and reinforced by social expectations.

I think boiling down something as complex as a human being to one of two standardised "blocks" of behaviours and traits is ludicrously reductive and essentialist.

That said, I also think criticism of power and behaviour has become excessively gendered of late. Patriarchy is only one facet of the Power Hierarchy, and characterising negative behaviours which are universal among the powerful as male because the present structure of society tends towards men being more powerful is short-sighted and counter productive.


I agree and disagree here, they are social constructs, but borne of evolution and the role of the sexes. Men traditionally play the role of protector, provider etc. And I dont think this is a bad thing. You can try to break them down, and succeed to a degree, but you cant erase it entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 11:33:26


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

You've been reading the Guardian too much mate! Although we might have to do a few more chores around the house and be a bit more circumspect about checking out the new girl in accounts nowadays, that's hardly a crisis

In fact as society has become more individualistic and narcissistic I've found people putting less social expectations on me to live or behave in a particular way.
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

ValentineGames wrote:
It's honestly something that I don't even consider at all.
I just go through each day being me.
I don't care about being masculine or what some people think about me because of my genetic gender.
I have no interest in activities that make you a man (like getting drunk and beating up old ladies) and if a woman scoffs at me for politely holding a door open I close it and walk away.


I think you misunderstand slightly. I don't mean the act of trying to appear masculine, and those activities you list at the bottom, I wouldnt describe as particularly masculine.

The things i'm talking about are more along the lines of,

The drive for dominance, the roles of protector, honour, chivalry, stoicism etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kroem wrote:
You've been reading the Guardian too much mate! Although we might have to do a few more chores around the house and be a bit more circumspect about checking out the new girl in accounts nowadays, that's hardly a crisis

In fact as society has become more individualistic and narcissistic I've found people putting less social expectations on me to live or behave in a particular way.


I do read the guardian, as I believe in knowing ones enemy

but I seem to hear a lot about this subject lately, and felt a need to present some sort of defence to the hugely one sided theory you see in the media.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 11:41:29


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

The drive of dominance, roles of protector, honour.... ect

If those things are going away I'd say ABOUT TIME!!!!

A mentality focussed around those things is actually the reason why I'm a feminist and consider women better than men in pretty much everything.

I see only ignorance in a mind set oriented with dominance, the role of protector, etc, not masculinity.

 
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Honestly, men do need to talk about their feelings more. Because right now, Men Don't Talk About That Sort Of Thing. And that is reflected in ridiculous suicide rates among young men. It's not about suddenly breaking down and crying at the drop of a hat. But it is about feeling confident enough to have a good cry when the occasion merits.

When there's an expectation that you need to provide, failing to do so can be a blow. Bottled up, that can become extremely problematic. Doubly so when asking for help 'isn't the done thing'. The phrase 'man up' is pointless and damaging when you think about it.

One need only look at the stuff that comes pouring out of Incel boards to see this writ large. The demand that women become chattel, because if you're not getting it whenever you want it from whomever you want it from, you might as well kill yourself. It's utterly moronic.

Again, I'll use myself as an example. To the outside eye, I seem to be very successful with the ladies. If I'm out, it's most often with my female friends. Most of whom would be considered really quite attractive. Yet....there is nothing more than friendship between us. Why I have so many attractive female friends, I'm really not sure. But part of it may be because I'm not constantly trying to bribe or guilt them into bed, or even giving that impression.

I bought one friend an umbrella she liked the other week. It's cool, with little bat wings and ears. I bought it for her because she was having an awful time, and I figured she needed some cheering up. That was it. The entirety of my motivation. Yet to others, it may seem like some sort of courting gift.

We need to sort this wide ranging issue out. And that requires a piping down on both sides of the extremes. Let the adults talk. Listen to those who say they're affected by it. You don't have to agree at the end of their speil, but you do need to have listened, rather than simply heard.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
The drive of dominance, roles of protector, honour.... ect

If those things are going away I'd say ABOUT TIME!!!!

A mentality focussed around those things is actually the reason why I'm a feminist and consider women better than men in pretty much everything.

I see only ignorance in a mind set oriented with dominance, the role of protector, etc, not masculinity.


Here, I do and I don't agree.

I do agree that they shouldn't be someone's entire motivation. That's a tough order, and can quickly lead to outright abuse, where your need to protect becomes stifling.

But I don't agree that want to protect others is an inherently negative thing. Take my God-Sprog. I loves her to bits, and I feel a great deal of responsibility toward her as a positive male role model. And I'd feel that even if her Dad wasn't a drippy loser too hung up on himself to give a damn about anyone else. The trick here is for me to offer the protection of support. To be there when she needs me, and know that fine line between waiting to be asked, and actively intervening when absolutely necessary. I'm not up for actively meddling or interfering with her life. I'll guide her, not lead her. Counsel her, not dictate to her. Help her move on, rather than dwell on 'I told you so'. That sort of stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 11:52:10


   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

this is a very complicated subject right now, as it is both wrapped up in the politics of the day and poorly understood by most, if not all of the people who broach the subject.

Dakka has a no politics policy at the moment so be wary about what you all post otherwise the thread will likely get locked.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think one issue with this is that its a little like concepts of sexuality and morals. A lot of it is stuff that we pick up on subtly as we grow up from a very young age. It's stuff we casually learn without realising for so long that it becomes something we "know" that feels like its how it should be at such an engrained level that its hard to logically step back and reappraise and many people can't or won't. so change can be slow and if it comes it can be darn messy and difficult - because at the personal level you're having to re-learn a lot of boundaries and concepts that you've established for yourself; most of which seem "logical" or did once work and were positive elements in life.



So change can be hard.
I do think that a lot of old gender roles are and have changed and will continue to change in a big way. We are seeing it being socially more acceptable for stay at home fathers to be a thing and I think this links into the rise in importance of women. I think that, for a time, when women were the homemakers there has been a social period where that whole side of life was looked down on - where it was a lesser thing. Where men did the real hard stuff in life and the work that brought home the money and did all the difficult things and women did the simpler, easier and less important things.

I think that as we've socially moved toward respecting women more we've also started to re-evaluate those old roles. To start to see them as having value, skill, work and importance in their own right.





As for myself I don't think about it much, there are certainly elements of how I behave that might be considered "typical male" and some that I likely don't think about and just "do" without any realisation. How much of that is "being a man" and how much is just "living" I've no idea. I wouldn't consider myself to be a manly man in how I act and behave nor even consider that a problem. I might enjoy and desire a higher level of fitness, but not because I want to "be a man" but because it unlocks so much potential to do MORE. At a purely functional level it empowers anyone - so for me something like that is more a skill just like drawing or electrical work etc... A skill to be valued in its own right for what it brings rather than as something that defines me as a gender.

Of course I'd say taht personal identity does come into play, I certainly feel that people have more identity when they've a role to play in life and that if you don't have a role to play or that role is considered "lesser" by society/pay/wages/a personally held viewpoint then that can grate on a person. However I think that grating pain isn't unique to any one gender.

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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

Yea to be fair there is some good stuff in the Guardian, especially the long reads.

I supposed what we shouldn't do is equate "I have no problem in expressing my masculinity" with "No boys/men have a problem expressing.. etc."
Teen aged boys would be the best focus group, considering that is an important time for forming your identity.

If we want to reduce the occurrence of toxic behaviors in men (and/or women) I think we should be re-framing the discussion to be more positive.

e.g Instead of 'Don't do X to Y because it disrespects them', I'd prefer to see more of 'here are the life enriching benefits I saw when treating Y in this good way'.
That would make the conversation more constructive imo.
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

 Blackie wrote:
The drive of dominance, roles of protector, honour.... ect

If those things are going away I'd say ABOUT TIME!!!!

A mentality focussed around those things is actually the reason why I'm a feminist and consider women better than men in pretty much everything.

I see only ignorance in a mind set oriented with dominance, the role of protector, etc, not masculinity.


They aren't going away. They're trying to be forced away, and I believe that's not a feasible thing to do.
Furthermore, I believe that is actually the cause of a lot of the toxic elements, because men have no outputs for those things.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






We also need to be better about showing peeps what is actually meant by consent.

For instance, non-consent does not necessarily involve physical violence. It can be persistence, the mere threat of violence or concern of violence etc.

That's an easier pill to swallow when you're young. Because once you've been around the block a few times and you figure this out, there's usually a few historical 'Oh....oh no' moments you can think back to.

   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

 Kroem wrote:
Yea to be fair there is some good stuff in the Guardian, especially the long reads.

I supposed what we shouldn't do is equate "I have no problem in expressing my masculinity" with "No boys/men have a problem expressing.. etc."
Teen aged boys would be the best focus group, considering that is an important time for forming your identity.

If we want to reduce the occurrence of toxic behaviors in men (and/or women) I think we should be re-framing the discussion to be more positive.

e.g Instead of 'Don't do X to Y because it disrespects them', I'd prefer to see more of 'here are the life enriching benefits I saw when treating Y in this good way'.
That would make the conversation more constructive imo.


Yeah. This is true. But at the same time I think it's still pertinent to teach that there are times when it's necessary to mask those feelings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Formosa wrote:
this is a very complicated subject right now, as it is both wrapped up in the politics of the day and poorly understood by most, if not all of the people who broach the subject.

Dakka has a no politics policy at the moment so be wary about what you all post otherwise the thread will likely get locked.


I'm aware, but the question I framed was not based in politics as far as I'm aware? Certainly less so than some threads I've seen in this forum

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 12:45:26


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
Yea to be fair there is some good stuff in the Guardian, especially the long reads.

I supposed what we shouldn't do is equate "I have no problem in expressing my masculinity" with "No boys/men have a problem expressing.. etc."
Teen aged boys would be the best focus group, considering that is an important time for forming your identity.

If we want to reduce the occurrence of toxic behaviors in men (and/or women) I think we should be re-framing the discussion to be more positive.

e.g Instead of 'Don't do X to Y because it disrespects them', I'd prefer to see more of 'here are the life enriching benefits I saw when treating Y in this good way'.
That would make the conversation more constructive imo.


Yeah. This is true. But at the same time I think it's still pertinent to teach that there are times when it's necessary to mask those feelings


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Formosa wrote:
this is a very complicated subject right now, as it is both wrapped up in the politics of the day and poorly understood by most, if not all of the people who broach the subject.

Dakka has a no politics policy at the moment so be wary about what you all post otherwise the thread will likely get locked.


I'm aware, but the question I framed was not based in politics as far as I'm aware? Certainly less so than some threads I've seen in this forum


The key is teaching that having emotional control is not relative to your gender in any way.
A healthy person of any gender should have the ability to both share their emotions and control them. There is no inherent reason why a man should "hide their emotions" more or less than a women. It's purely a social construct that might play off minor variation in genders.

Ergo a man shouldn't be taught to withhold displays of affection or their emotional state at all times; just as you'd not expect that a women should be blubbing and crying every time they break a nail.



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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

True. But that is the message that comes across. There are times that certain emotions need to be hidden. Read the art of manliness post I linked above. It's a brilliant website and one I recommend to everyone.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

They aren't going away. They're trying to be forced away, and I believe that's not a feasible thing to do.
Furthermore, I believe that is actually the cause of a lot of the toxic elements, because men have no outputs for those things.


Having been involved in the generations happily ignoring these things and seeing the kids doing it even better, it's not really forced, it's just kinda nice to not have life requirements shoved up my pee hole because it sticks out.

Further, having been involved in feminist discussions repeatedly, as long as you aren't stupid enough to 'what about the men' them constantly, you can get plenty of input. The problem you're most likely seeing is as most of society wanders off to do it's own thing, it's further and further away from folks tied up to the old standards making it harder and harder for them to follow, or frankly even understand.
   
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Monarchy of TBD

Spoiler:


I think we're in a pretty good place right now, honestly. There are so many alternative models of what a man can be, and even the stereotypical super tough guys are willing to expose their more human depths. For examples, Neil Patrick Harris, an openly gay family man who does adorable costumes every halloween, played this generations' iconic fratboy womanizer. Nick Offerman, the perpetually stoic survivalist Ron Swanson, has a wonderful interview where he reveals he's considered the sissy in his family, and does puzzles with his wife for fun. Terry Crews by all rights ought to be terrifying, and can act like it- but is a man who played football to put himself through an art degree.


Right now, being a man is being whatever you choose it to be. Just commit to it, and make sure you're with someone that approves of your interpretation. Really, that's what consent culture is- you can be whatever you want, as long as you get the ok of whoever you're doing it to to be it. (My apologies, former sentence, for the grammatical crimes I just committed it) Want to hold open a door? Great, just ask may I get that for you? Or use 'would you like some help' before you pick up someone's bags at the grocery store.

No one's going to object if you kill a band of Mongolians attempting to pillage their land. They will definitely object if you demand they give you their 12 year old daughter's hand in marriage to secure your alliance.
Chivalry's like piracy- nice in theory and hindsight, but in practice ugly and brutal.

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Also, Chivalry was more a code of conduct for war. Like not killing the other Nobles, instead capturing them for ransom.

Then came Agincourt Penny a Corpse, Peasantry! VERY GOOD MASTER!

   
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





Dorset, England

For me this all boils done to the question of why Emotional Intelligence isn't a lesson in classrooms, we shouldn't have to wait until we become management to learn about these things!
   
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Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Haha!
But indeed. I mean, clearly all of us here like painting little plastic dudes. Personally I'd much rather be doing that than be out on the town trying to chat up girls every night (that part of my life is over)
I don't think anyone is in disagreement that men can and should embrace things like that. In fact, if you look at victoria males, you could consider them total sissies comparing them to more modern ideals They wore pink, wrote soppy love poetry for their women and were obsessed with fair play and gamesmanship. This is my point. We need to accept and embrace certain values, not try and force them away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, Chivalry was more a code of conduct for war. Like not killing the other Nobles, instead capturing them for ransom.

Then came Agincourt Penny a Corpse, Peasantry! VERY GOOD MASTER!


http://m.lordsandladies.org/knights-code-of-chivalry.htm

It encompassed all facets of life, and I still feel there are elements that translate to modern life.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/19 13:19:44


Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Do I think men, in general, have certain areas of social interaction they need to improve on? Yes, I do. But that is true of both genders. It's just a human thing to not always recognize when you are being a jerk, even a jerk to yourself.

I would like to say that I think men's shortcomings are being highlighted while women's are relatively glossed over. Case in point, a recent case in Australia. A gent on a live stream was interrupted several times by his wife. She repeatedly struck him, and was destructive to his property, despite 34 requests to leave him alone. He was cussing at her, and eventually slapped her. Note, I do NOT condone his violence. However, I wonder why he was charge with being a wife beater when she instigated the initial violence.
   
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being a bloke really is easy mode, anyone says different is selling something


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SOME men have tied their own masculinity to rape culture and social dominance. It is not their masculinity that is under threat, at all, but if they continue to maintain that linkage, they may feel their masculinity washed away along with the stain that is currently being cleansed.

It's like lashing yourself to the mast of a sinking ship.
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Do I think men, in general, have certain areas of social interaction they need to improve on? Yes, I do. But that is true of both genders. It's just a human thing to not always recognize when you are being a jerk, even a jerk to yourself.

I would like to say that I think men's shortcomings are being highlighted while women's are relatively glossed over. Case in point, a recent case in Australia. A gent on a live stream was interrupted several times by his wife. She repeatedly struck him, and was destructive to his property, despite 34 requests to leave him alone. He was cussing at her, and eventually slapped her. Note, I do NOT condone his violence. However, I wonder why he was charge with being a wife beater when she instigated the initial violence.


Because hitting a person is different to hitting a thing.

Actually, I misread the post. I thought the wife was smashing stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 14:57:10


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 JimOnMars wrote:
SOME men have tied their own masculinity to rape culture and social dominance. It is not their masculinity that is under threat, at all, but if they continue to maintain that linkage, they may feel their masculinity washed away along with the stain that is currently being cleansed.

It's like lashing yourself to the mast of a sinking ship.


What you are talking about is something of the "narrative character" of life.

What this thread is really asking, I think, is "what does it mean to be a man?"

And then, consequently, "what should it mean to be a man?"

Where you are going to run into though is the trouble in defining what "meaning" actually means though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 14:47:41


"Wir sehen hiermit wieder die Sprache als das Dasein des Geistes." - The Phenomenology of Spirit 
   
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Norwalk, Connecticut

The problem is that no group is better than any other group; race, gender, sexual identity, etc. But we spent so long where being “white male” was the cream of the crop, that now it is almost taboo, socially, to be a white male. From my understanding, white men still make more in job fields, but there are hiring quotas in many places based on all fields EXCEPT being a white male; we don’t focus on qualifications, we focus on “do we meet our quota?” Colleges do this too. So if you’re a white male, you’ve had your time in the sun (even if you weren’t even born when that time was). It’s time for everyone else now. Except that’s a backwards way of thinking, that will eventually snap back to the white male getting his time again, some day in the future. It SHOULD be that it’s “time for everyone”- instead of “everyone else”.

The only people who are toxic are the ones who think one group is superior to another or “deserves more”. I (and all the rest of you) deserve what is earned; not what skin/gender/orientation “gets you”.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


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Earth

 JimOnMars wrote:
SOME men have tied their own masculinity to rape culture and social dominance. It is not their masculinity that is under threat, at all, but if they continue to maintain that linkage, they may feel their masculinity washed away along with the stain that is currently being cleansed.

It's like lashing yourself to the mast of a sinking ship.


NO men have tied their masculinity to "rape culture" in the west and "social dominance" needs to be defined, some level of social dominance is good, thats why we have goverments.

Just remember the "rape culture" statement is a political one, as stated before we are not allowed to talk politics on dakka (for good reason), were walking a fine line here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 timetowaste85 wrote:
The problem is that no group is better than any other group; race, gender, sexual identity, etc. But we spent so long where being “white male” was the cream of the crop, that now it is almost taboo, socially, to be a white male. From my understanding, white men still make more in job fields, but there are hiring quotas in many places based on all fields EXCEPT being a white male; we don’t focus on qualifications, we focus on “do we meet our quota?” Colleges do this too. So if you’re a white male, you’ve had your time in the sun (even if you weren’t even born when that time was). It’s time for everyone else now. Except that’s a backwards way of thinking, that will eventually snap back to the white male getting his time again, some day in the future. It SHOULD be that it’s “time for everyone”- instead of “everyone else”.

The only people who are toxic are the ones who think one group is superior to another or “deserves more”. I (and all the rest of you) deserve what is earned; not what skin/gender/orientation “gets you”.


Some groups are better than others, thats life, that group of scientists over there, they are better at science that this group of gamers... guess what were better at, problem as you say comes in when you ONLY define people by what group they belong to, rather than taking context in mind, context always matters.

So when someone says "white male priviledge" they are acting in

A: indentitarianism
B: collectivism
C; Oppressor/Oppressed definitions.

but from what I have seen most of the people doing this do not know what they are doing or even why they are doing it, they usually lack an understanding of where such narratives come from and what it could ultimately lead to.

so a long way around of saying it, it has always been difficult to be a man, but these days, depending on context, seems to be very difficult in commparison to 10/20 years ago, I feel bad for the young men having to grow up in an age where they are irrationally hated based upon the colour of their skin or whats between their legs, we had words for that behaviour when I was growing up....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 16:04:33


 
   
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Is it really that hard to live you life by the basic creed "don't be an donkey-cave"?

The whole "toxic masculinity" is practiced by people who are insecure and are lashing out. Be it financial, physical, emotional or whatever these guys struggle with who they are and want a simple box to fit into to make them feel better about themselves and will push others around them to fit into that box so they can feel superior to someone else based on some made-up criteria.

I identify with the other poster who basically said "I'm comfortable in my own skin so I've never had a problem with acting masculine." It does help that I check all the boxes (minus the facial hair, I couldn't grow a beard as a grown man to save my life) so maybe my hitting the genetic lottery skews my understanding of the issue.
   
 
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