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Made in us
Douglas Bader






Since the hauntings thread has been declared to be a hugbox where the only acceptable response to a claim is to nod in agreement and affirm belief in the supernatural this is the skepticism thread. Discuss how to handle supernatural claims and any evidence for them. And if anyone who believes in it wants to post here and discuss your beliefs with a more open-minded attitude than the other thread, we welcome you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 19:59:11


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

All the electronic paraphenalia of “ghost hunting” fascinates and delights me. I imagine this stuff had its original basis in some kind of good faith theories about electromagnetic fields but it has almost certainly evolved completely away from that to sheer chicanery. The so-called “spirit box” is a prime example. It blithely sweeps radio frequencies allowing the user to “detect” meaning in the same way a patient evaluates a Rorschach inkblot. Except an inkstanined sheet of paper doesn’t cost approx. one hundred dollars ...

Come to think of it, pretty much all of the ghost hunting electronica are vairations on Rorschach readings, although the therapist and the patient in “ghost hunting” appear to be the same person.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 20:08:49


   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot






I love a good argument.

What science would be required for you to believe that hauntings are a real and actual occurrence that happens? Utilization of the scientific method with some calibrated devices that can effectively measure the readouts of paranormal energy?

http://www.lessemf.com/ghost.html

I think this link has all the equipment you might need.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 20:17:28


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Well, first off, you would have to offer a precise hypothetical description of what ghosts or spirits or demons or whatever actually are in materialist terms. We need a very clear definition before we can even decide what is necessary to prove that whatever the defined object is actually exists.

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






I'm very interested in the symbolic and psychological aspects of the supernatural. Obviously it's an important area of human belief and experience, or you wouldn't hear about it so often and so passionately. That being said, I can't think of many things that interest me less than another person's implicit assumptions that the supernatural is real in a literal sense. Either show me the evidence or try to find a meaningful way to explore it in terms of meaning and belief; operating under the premise that the supernatural exists in spite of the lack of proof or the fact that human experience is fallible is something I just can't bring myself to play along with.

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

When you say “show me evidence” you are making the same mistake you accuse others of making - starting with presumptions. Jjohnso11 is right to ask, what kind of evidence do you want? We aren’t even at the stage where anyone can start presenting “evidence” because first of all we need some kind of concrete hypothesis about the nature of the phenomenon to be investigated.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/01 20:26:18


   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot






The human collective has shown interest in the supernatural throughout our history. Find me a culture that did not believe in Gods, spirits, or some other supernatural beings that "did not exist".

I think finding the materialistic would be absolutely the hardest and is probably the reason we don't have the proof that you are actually looking for. You can use readers that detect waves or energy, but you run the risk of picking up interference from energy that has nothing to do with your experiments.

Wifi/internet travels in waves of data/energy that make this whole debate possible, but I have no idea its there except for a blinking light and the ability to submit this conversation.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The notion that these ‘readers’ can detect ghosts “assume the conlcusion,” so far as I understand it.

- This instrument can detect fluctuations in energy.
- Ghosts exist as energy.
- Therefore, this instrument can detect ghosts.

That second premise is the problem. How are you going to prove that?

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Manchu wrote:
Well, first off, you would have to offer a precise hypothetical description of what ghosts or spirits or demons or whatever actually are in materialist terms. We need a very clear definition before we can even decide what is necessary to prove that whatever the defined object is actually exists.


Exactly. What defines "ghost" vs "detectable variation in ambient electrical fields"? Answer that before trying to buy ghost measuring devices.

(Or don't, for that price I'll gladly build and sell you a ghost meter.)

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Peregrine wrote:
(Or don't, for that price I'll gladly build and sell you a ghost meter.)
And there’s the second issue. On top of the unwillingness (or, more likely, inability) to offer the necessary testable hypothesis, there’s also the obvious pecuniary interest involved in selling “ghost hunting” equipment.

   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Magic is the explanation for natural phenomenon we don’t understand.

Magnetism was magic before “humanity” understood how it worked. Science is able to (often / usually) explain how something happens. How to predict the results of controlled experiments.

The question of “why” falls outside the purview of scientific explaination. Why does gravity attract matter? Why do like magnetic poles repel while dissimilar poles attract? We can observe that it does. We can determine relative forces and predict the outcomes of placing two magnetic objects near each other.

For some that’s enough, but for others they want to determine a purpose for it. An overarching structure to which all things “belong”.

I don’t, Huzzah for Nihilism! But I’m not everyone and everyone has a right to determine their beliefs about the unknown... or lack thereof. Huzzah for Agnosticism!

My father lost his sense of smell at a young age. He can be surrounded by scent particles but he’s unable to detect them. His perception of reality is unable to detect scent. I don’t detect the presence of a deity or deities. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, one can’t logically prove a negative, but I’m unable to detect the presence.

I’m less doubtful of the existence of other supernatural phenomenon. Perhaps magnetism-like forces exist that “humanity” hasn’t recognized.

In a blatant use of pseudoscience, I’ve observed that living things are constantly reorganizing matter into “meaningful” structures, like blood, bone, muscle. When those things die, they stop reorganizing matter and begin disorganizing / decomposing. To me, that’s indicative of a force, though certainly not something I’ve studied scientifically. If it is a force, it can be comparable to magnetism. You can induce magnetic force in non-natural magnets, like a bar of steel. Though over time, such magnets will de-magnetize.

Perhaps that’s like our lives. We can induce a life charge in our offspring through procreation and over time that wears off. And like magnets that force can be refreshed through our biological processes like eating. And like induced magnets sudden shocks (traumatic injury) can disrupt that force.

And maybe that force carries on after we die? Energy can’t be destroyed, if I recall. Maybe the Bhudism based philosophies are correct and the life forces return to a pool and maybe not and that energy is recycled into new life forms. Maybe nothing like that happens at all and we simply cease to be.
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






 Manchu wrote:
When you say “show me evidence” you are making the same mistake you accuse others of making - starting with presumptions. Jjohnso11 is right to ask, what kind of evidence do you want? We aren’t even at the stage where anyone can start presenting “evidence” because first of all we need some kind of concrete hypothesis about the nature of the phenomenon to be investigated.


Not really. I can't prove a negative. If someone asserts that supernatural phenomena exist then the burden is on them to demonstrate that existence in a meaningful way, not on me to rationalize their subjective and fallible experience in a way that reinforces their beliefs. If I tell you that a dragon lives in the sun, it's not your intellectual duty to formulate a hypothesis for how that might be possible or testable, it's mine. I don't assume that unicorns don't exist, I just don't operate under the assumption that anything conceivable is true unless proven otherwise.

 
   
Made in ca
Phanobi






Canada,Prince Edward Island

I love a good ghost story and being spooked out by them but I have never once considered that ghosts actually exist. It seems like one of those ancient traditions passed down through time that has lingered on in a modern society despite any lack of physical proof.

While physical proof is not necessarily needed for an argument to have merit (I believe there is alien life out there despite us not having anything to back that up), ghosts just seem like wishful thinking with no real science behind it to reinforce the theory.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

I’m not asking anyone to prove a negative.

My point is, asking for ‘evidence’ is not meaningful in this context.

It’s like someone saying “poetry is lovely” and someone else demanding in response, “show me evidence.”

Before we can even consider the question of evidence, we have to begin with a claim capable of being supported by evidence.

“Ghosts exist” is not such a claim.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 21:06:22


   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

I have a theory, that if a sound, or an image can be recorded onto a piece of acetate or vinyl, why couldn't it be recorded onto another material? If there was a strong enough occurrence to do so...

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot






Unicorns exist in caves in North Korea right? I read that on the internet somewhere and now I believe it. (:

Can you prove that ghosts/supernatural entities do not exist?



   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

What is the “other material” in question?

   
Made in gb
Multispectral Nisse




Luton, UK

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Can you prove that ghosts/supernatural entities do not exist?


Why would I need to do that?

“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

So, open question, what kind of supernatural entities / forces are we trying to prove?

For example, ghosts / spirits, lucky charms, psychokinesis, vampires, angels / daemons, telepathy... what are we trying to prove?

Given that a person can’t logically prove non-existence, merely that something can’t be detected by a given experiment, a requirement to prove non-existence is not required. However, without meaningfully defined criteria proof can’t be determined or assessed. So what are we trying to prove, and how can we determine meaningful proof?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/01 21:38:11


 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

From a scientific standpoint, I think all we can say is there is no reproduceable evidence of anything like a ghost.

There is also no theoretical framework existing in science into which a concept like a ghost can easily fit. There is plenty we do not understand about the brain and also about the fundamentals of physics, but nothing much suggests that these sorts of phenomena are likely. Our questions are more of the "how does quantum gravity work?" order than "can a remnant of a living thing exist after it's death?"

Which is not exactly the same thing as saying "There is no such thing as ghosts", but pretty much amounts to the same thing.

When we have no evidence and no real framework, we accept the simplest explanation that has some evidence - people imagined these things, experienced hallucinations, or are lying.

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unicorns exist in caves in North Korea right? I read that on the internet somewhere and now I believe it. (:

Can you prove that ghosts/supernatural entities do not exist?




You can't prove that something doesn't exist. I can't prove that unicorns or ghosts don't exist any more than I can prove that God doesn't exist. If you want to convince me of the existence of ghosts, you have got to provide me with some kind of way I or anyone else can verify their existence rather than simply taking your word for it. No one has ever provided me with evidence that leprechauns and fairies don't exist, but that doesn't mean I'm going to assume that they do.

 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Ghosts seem popular, so how do we define a ghost?

Would it be fair to define a ghost as a sentient entity, that appears unaffected by our understood laws of physics? Something that can pass through material objects?

For my purposes, I would be excluding poltergeists that can influence material items.

I think the issue with such a ghost, would be if it ignores some / all physical laws, could we see it? If there’s no matter to reflect light, how could we see it? I can’t recall if electromagnetic fields can distort light? If they can, or other forces could, the possibility of visual conformation exists.

The notions of ghosts absorbing heat (sense of cold in their presence) could be detected, but would be difficult to ascribe to an entity that otherwise ignores physical laws. Thermal imaging could potentially be used to determine this, though great care would need to be excercised to exclude natural air currents.

To me, lacking physical properties makes me doubtful of the existence of ghosts as perceived. What would tie their “essence” to Earth? Why wouldn’t they become static in space as Earth carries on? Why wouldn’t they be flung off the globe as it turns? Is there some kind of anchoring force at a point of Death, that moves with the Earth yet has remained undetected? I doubt it, but that’s my nature. But since I can’t disprove it, I can’t assert that it is impossible, just unlikely in my experience.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
Would it be fair to define a ghost as a sentient entity


In my opinion, you can just stop at that. As far as we know and can conceive the only thing that can grant a being sentience is a brain and the organs that feeds it sensory output (nose, eyes, hears, mouth, skin, nerves, etc.). We have yet to discover any other way for sentience to occur. In fact, we have observed that the only way to remove or alter sentience in a being doted of one is to affect its brain and/or sensory organs. The day we will damage someone brain and not affect is capacity to think and feel, then maybe the idea of a human mind surviving intact or mostly intact hte total destruction of the nervous system supporting it, then maybe ghosts will become a possibility.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

I disagree with the basic premise of the thread.

It should be "ghosts, haunting etc are not a result of the spirits of the dead, what phenomena, known or unknown, do we think explains their existence?"

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





radiowave ducting could explain "voices" picked up by radio equipement.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





epronovost wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
Would it be fair to define a ghost as a sentient entity


In my opinion, you can just stop at that. As far as we know and can conceive the only thing that can grant a being sentience is a brain and the organs that feeds it sensory output (nose, eyes, hears, mouth, skin, nerves, etc.). We have yet to discover any other way for sentience to occur. In fact, we have observed that the only way to remove or alter sentience in a being doted of one is to affect its brain and/or sensory organs. The day we will damage someone brain and not affect is capacity to think and feel, then maybe the idea of a human mind surviving intact or mostly intact hte total destruction of the nervous system supporting it, then maybe ghosts will become a possibility.

Sam Harris mentioned something similar to this. You damage a part of the brain and somebody cannot remember their own mother/daughter/son/wife/name, and in the process of death the entire Brain dies, yet we are able to rise off the body to meet and greet our loved ones. That was pretty much his argument, which I found a very convincing one.

The possibility of spirits or ghosts is of course entirely possible, but to suggest that there is evidence or reason other than the fact people have believed it for millenia is a strange way of thinking. It has been said that humans will believe in a god/afterlife for as long as there is a fear of death, which I think also applies to spirits and daemons and all the rest of it. It always seems to me that there is a hint of believing yourself to be somewhat special to believe in spirits, as it is not based on evidence, if it was then we would not be discussing it. It has to be based on the wants/wishes/fears of said individual.. surely? Perhaps I am belittling the idea of spirits and ghosts etc - this is not my intention. I think it is more that I have believed things in the past which I would now scoff at, and my reasoning for those beliefs was purely wishful.

This is all my opinion! It is open to change of course.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/01 23:05:48


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Consider as well that "supernatural" creatures like sea serpents and krakens stopped being supernatural and just became "natural" when more was discovered about the Oarfish which can reach lengths of 17 meters and tend to swim in a manner resembling the old artwork depicting sea serpents. Add that large red dorsal and it starts looking very much like sailors tales of sea serpents as well. That they rarely come anywhere near the surface would explain the scarcity of tales. The collosal squid also fits the whole "kraken" thing quite nicely seeing as that they are considerably larger than old scandinavian tales. These creatures are certainly toxic with the amount of ammonia in them to allow the crushing pressures, so again, rarely ever seen anywhere near the surface. something science cant prove now doesnt mean its something that cant eventually be scientifically proven.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 thekingofkings wrote:
Consider as well that "supernatural" creatures like sea serpents and krakens stopped being supernatural and just became "natural" when more was discovered about the Oarfish which can reach lengths of 17 meters and tend to swim in a manner resembling the old artwork depicting sea serpents. Add that large red dorsal and it starts looking very much like sailors tales of sea serpents as well. That they rarely come anywhere near the surface would explain the scarcity of tales. The collosal squid also fits the whole "kraken" thing quite nicely seeing as that they are considerably larger than old scandinavian tales. These creatures are certainly toxic with the amount of ammonia in them to allow the crushing pressures, so again, rarely ever seen anywhere near the surface. something science cant prove now doesnt mean its something that cant eventually be scientifically proven.


Which is how a feel in a nutshell. I think ghosts are a mystery awaiting an explanation, not something that should be dismissed because your personal world view doesn't allow for them.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Azreal13 wrote:
Which is how a feel in a nutshell. I think ghosts are a mystery awaiting an explanation, not something that should be dismissed because your personal world view doesn't allow for them.


Ghosts, in the sense of the haunting spirit of a dead human, are dismissed because they are impossible. Your mind cannot survive heavy damage to your body let alone its destruction. That doesn't mean that the phenomenon of "haunting" haven't got plenty of explanation ranging from elaborate hoax, to delusion, hallucination, light tricks, old buildings with air currents, electrical disturbences, St Elmo's fire, methane burning and just the plain old problem of human being interpreting unclear sounds or images in various ways (or a combination of some or all these). Those weird occurences aren't dismissed without explanations. Only one of the explanation, that a dead person spirit is doing something to you and your environment, is dismissed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/01 23:26:06


 
   
Made in ca
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

It's entirely possible that, much like the classical poltergeist, the ghost is a manifestation of a person's belief and their innate power.

I know, I know... the skeptical will rush to classify this explanation as 'magic', or pseudo science, but the power of belief to alter humans is very well documented.

Science calls it the Placebo effect- when someone's symptoms can improve purely through their belief and sugar pills. It's intended to showcase the efficacy of understood scientific treatments, but it also shows that human belief is sometimes enough to heal or alter the course of an illness. In other words, pure, unalloyed belief has a tangible effect on the body.

Once you accept human belief has power, which is magic, it's a very small leap to that magic impacting the immediate area around a person- thus the person conjures their own ghosts.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
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