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Made in se
Furious Raptor




Gothenburg, Sweden

I got pretty much an entire Deathwatch army for x-mas ("pretty much" because we all know there is no such thing as an entire army ). I´ve been checking the codex and for Troop choice I was wondering about whether I´m allowed to take an entire squad of Terminators? There doesn´t seem to be any line against it, but then I can also take an entire squad of Terminators as Elite choice. I can take them as Troops and/or Elite?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion...and bacon! 
   
Made in lt
Regular Dakkanaut





You can't. Troop choices include only 2 options:

1) Veterans
2) Intercessors

Now once you take the 5 man minimum of those, you can supplement them with whatever infantry you like (also bikers)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/02 13:24:21


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




With Combat Squads you could take a ten man Veteran team made of 5 vets and 5 termies, then split them off during deployment. The Termies would then be de-facto troops (they'll keep Objective Secured). They would lose their innate teleport strike though (unless you pay a CP to drop them in, for which DW has *far* better options).
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






If you look at the Troops unit entry, it starts with 5 veterans. You can turn those vets into other vet models (watch sergeants, blackshields, heavy wapon holders) but you can't change them into terminators, vanvets etc. You can only ADD terminators, vanvets etc.

You could have a troop unit of 5 vets and 5 terminators, but you can only ever have a troop unit with 5 vets minimum.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in se
Furious Raptor




Gothenburg, Sweden

Ah! Now it makes more sense! Thanks guys

Peace is a lie, there is only passion...and bacon! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sterling191 wrote:
With Combat Squads you could take a ten man Veteran team made of 5 vets and 5 termies, then split them off during deployment. The Termies would then be de-facto troops (they'll keep Objective Secured). They would lose their innate teleport strike though (unless you pay a CP to drop them in, for which DW has *far* better options).

Ya know, I didn't notice that. Good catch.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, I didn't notice that. Good catch.


The things that DW's capacity to mix units in combination with Combat Squads can do are pretty nasty if you're willing to get creative. It's entirely possible (and in some cases a significant advantage) to do an entire DW detachment using nothing but HQs and Troops.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sterling191 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, I didn't notice that. Good catch.


The things that DW's capacity to mix units in combination with Combat Squads can do are pretty nasty if you're willing to get creative. It's entirely possible (and in some cases a significant advantage) to do an entire DW detachment using nothing but HQs and Troops.

I know. I love the idea of a five man Stalker squad that splits off from three Bikers and two Vanguard holding a Storm Shield and either a Chainsword or Pistol.

The issue is how expensive Marine HQ units are, as you have to equip them somewhat to make use of all the stats they're paying for. At least the Vanilla Codex can do slightly cheaper HQ units but it isn't by a lot to make up for it.

Also I'm still upset we don't have Scouts for Deathwatch. They're used in fluff and the RPG...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, I didn't notice that. Good catch.


The things that DW's capacity to mix units in combination with Combat Squads can do are pretty nasty if you're willing to get creative. It's entirely possible (and in some cases a significant advantage) to do an entire DW detachment using nothing but HQs and Troops.

I know. I love the idea of a five man Stalker squad that splits off from three Bikers and two Vanguard holding a Storm Shield and either a Chainsword or Pistol.

The issue is how expensive Marine HQ units are, as you have to equip them somewhat to make use of all the stats they're paying for. At least the Vanilla Codex can do slightly cheaper HQ units but it isn't by a lot to make up for it.

Also I'm still upset we don't have Scouts for Deathwatch. They're used in fluff and the RPG...


100-125 points for an hq stings a bit in comparison to guard, but from the perspective of playing Drukhari and Harlequins I'm continuously impressed by how well my Terminator/jump captains, chaplains and libbies perform.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Slipspace wrote:
While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.

They're CHEAP though is the thing. Using those HQ units just for babysitting doesn't cost you as much compared to at minimum 74 points for a Captain with the bare pistol and chainsword.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.

They're CHEAP though is the thing. Using those HQ units just for babysitting doesn't cost you as much compared to at minimum 74 points for a Captain with the bare pistol and chainsword.


yeah drukhari HQs sure are super cheap compared to those 74 point captains why an archon costs minimum...lets see...72 points.

WOW.

just think of what you can get for those points!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Also, the "super cheap" succubus is more expensive base than a marine lieutenant...

Only CWE get those cheap HQs you're complaining about. Cheapest harlequin HQ is 74.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/02 23:39:17


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ya know, I didn't notice that. Good catch.


The things that DW's capacity to mix units in combination with Combat Squads can do are pretty nasty if you're willing to get creative. It's entirely possible (and in some cases a significant advantage) to do an entire DW detachment using nothing but HQs and Troops.

I know. I love the idea of a five man Stalker squad that splits off from three Bikers and two Vanguard holding a Storm Shield and either a Chainsword or Pistol.

The issue is how expensive Marine HQ units are, as you have to equip them somewhat to make use of all the stats they're paying for. At least the Vanilla Codex can do slightly cheaper HQ units but it isn't by a lot to make up for it.

Also I'm still upset we don't have Scouts for Deathwatch. They're used in fluff and the RPG...
If they were basically Wolf Scout expys then that would be awesome.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.

They're CHEAP though is the thing. Using those HQ units just for babysitting doesn't cost you as much compared to at minimum 74 points for a Captain with the bare pistol and chainsword.


yeah drukhari HQs sure are super cheap compared to those 74 point captains why an archon costs minimum...lets see...72 points.

WOW.

just think of what you can get for those points!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Also, the "super cheap" succubus is more expensive base than a marine lieutenant...

Only CWE get those cheap HQs you're complaining about. Cheapest harlequin HQ is 74.

Archons and Succubi are only 50 points though, right? I know for a fact the Haemonculus is 70 minimum.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Implacable Skitarii





I have the DE book but I've not picked up Chapter Approved, so I don't know if this has changed, but...

An archon is base 70pts and has to take at least a 2pt weapon as per its loadout options. He's the one you want for babysitting your shooting stuff, too.

Succubi are only 50pts, but they can only babysit wych cult units and they only provide the rerolls for close combat attacks--you can make a cheap shooting aura out of her unfortunately.

Owning both the DE and DW books, I will point out, however, that with a DW list I always feel like I can't cram in everything I need, but with a DE list it feels like I can always include the best of all my options and then some. So the pain of having a 72/74pt aura tax seems to be felt more-strongly by DW owing to paying through the nose for their elite units. DW can mitigate than with its access to a broader range of allies, but that's little comfort for someone wanting to run 'mono' armies.


On another note, even though both a barebones archon and a barebones captain can feel like a tax--and neither of them are particularly suited for duelling actual fighty characters / big enemies--I also need to say that the archon's always felt a little better at killing troopers than the barebones captain. Give him a venom blade to make him wound all the time, or a huskblade to boost his strength and AP (and he'll still be below 80pts) and he can charge into some chaff and start tearing them up if he doesn't need to babysit a pile of ravagers. Special ammo helps barebones captains with their shooting, but making him better at fighting (stronger weapon, more AP weapon, or a weapon that's both) adds even more points into a list that's already going to be hurting for them. A handful of CC attacks at S4 with no native AP and a special-issue boltgun (which I believe he needs to pay for) might not even take out chaff quickly enough. The captain can get scarier than the archon, sure, but that means less bodies for the DW list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 12:02:11


609th Kharkovian 2000pts
Deathwatch 2000pts
Sick Marines 1500pts
Spikey Marines 2000pts
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.

They're CHEAP though is the thing. Using those HQ units just for babysitting doesn't cost you as much compared to at minimum 74 points for a Captain with the bare pistol and chainsword.


yeah drukhari HQs sure are super cheap compared to those 74 point captains why an archon costs minimum...lets see...72 points.

WOW.

just think of what you can get for those points!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Also, the "super cheap" succubus is more expensive base than a marine lieutenant...

Only CWE get those cheap HQs you're complaining about. Cheapest harlequin HQ is 74.

Archons and Succubi are only 50 points though, right? I know for a fact the Haemonculus is 70 minimum.


Nope, I just listed out the actual minimum point values of those units. Every deldar HQ is within 3-8 points of their marine "equivalent" HQ at minimum base cost. And some of them, I'm really not sure why I wouldn't take the marine equivalent for the points difference.

Just look at what you get for the 6 points difference between a Succubus and a Chaplain:

-2 damage on your melee weapon
-4++ is always on
-3+ armor save
-reroll all failed hits instead of reroll 1s
-aura affects the whole codex instead of 4 specific units in the codex

"eldar have cheap HQs" applies ONLY to craftworld eldar, claiming that DE/Harlequins get the same is basically like saying marines don't have expensive HQs they can just take company commanders.

As far as captain vs Archon, I think both are probably the best all-around choice for their faction and neither is particularly nuts outside of a couple super useful builds (mostly involving relics). The aura buffer "captainent" build is the best for both of them (in the case of the deathwatch guy, using the book relic for reroll 1s to wound for your backline, for the archon using the writ of vect for the same thing), and you can build either into a decent but expensive combat HQ that will struggle to make its points back unless it really lays into something huge. An equivalent I'd say would be something like Archon with a huskblade (S4 AP-2 Dd3) and blast pistol for 86 points and a captain with a relic blade and something like an Inferno Pistol at 94. Again he gets higher strength, better damage, more durability (calculating the archon as a model with 1 wound at 2++ and 4 wounds at 5+ armor), melta rule on his gun, and his aura affects the whole codex instead of 4 specific units.

DE's cheap troops and non-tax transports are what makes it easier to build lists with them, IMO. It's only about 85 points for a minimum usable troop choice (kabalites in a venom) versus 100 at this point for Deathwatch (5 storm'n'storms). You can shave it down to 70 (5 kabalites and half the cost of a raider) but it's much less effective in-game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
While DW HQs are pretty annoyingly expensive, I agree that they are at least useful. My Archons and Succubus tend to be pretty useless in most games even for the low amount of points spent on them. At least DW HQs can be a threat at both shooting and combat and adding some useful utility to the army.

They're CHEAP though is the thing. Using those HQ units just for babysitting doesn't cost you as much compared to at minimum 74 points for a Captain with the bare pistol and chainsword.


yeah drukhari HQs sure are super cheap compared to those 74 point captains why an archon costs minimum...lets see...72 points.

WOW.

just think of what you can get for those points!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...Also, the "super cheap" succubus is more expensive base than a marine lieutenant...

Only CWE get those cheap HQs you're complaining about. Cheapest harlequin HQ is 74.

Archons and Succubi are only 50 points though, right? I know for a fact the Haemonculus is 70 minimum.


Nope, I just listed out the actual minimum point values of those units. Every deldar HQ is within 3-8 points of their marine "equivalent" HQ at minimum base cost. And some of them, I'm really not sure why I wouldn't take the marine equivalent for the points difference.

Just look at what you get for the 6 points difference between a Succubus and a Chaplain:

-2 damage on your melee weapon
-4++ is always on
-3+ armor save
-reroll all failed hits instead of reroll 1s
-aura affects the whole codex instead of 4 specific units in the codex

"eldar have cheap HQs" applies ONLY to craftworld eldar, claiming that DE/Harlequins get the same is basically like saying marines don't have expensive HQs they can just take company commanders.

As far as captain vs Archon, I think both are probably the best all-around choice for their faction and neither is particularly nuts outside of a couple super useful builds (mostly involving relics). The aura buffer "captainent" build is the best for both of them (in the case of the deathwatch guy, using the book relic for reroll 1s to wound for your backline, for the archon using the writ of vect for the same thing), and you can build either into a decent but expensive combat HQ that will struggle to make its points back unless it really lays into something huge. An equivalent I'd say would be something like Archon with a huskblade (S4 AP-2 Dd3) and blast pistol for 86 points and a captain with a relic blade and something like an Inferno Pistol at 94. Again he gets higher strength, better damage, more durability (calculating the archon as a model with 1 wound at 2++ and 4 wounds at 5+ armor), melta rule on his gun, and his aura affects the whole codex instead of 4 specific units.

DE's cheap troops and non-tax transports are what makes it easier to build lists with them, IMO. It's only about 85 points for a minimum usable troop choice (kabalites in a venom) versus 100 at this point for Deathwatch (5 storm'n'storms). You can shave it down to 70 (5 kabalites and half the cost of a raider) but it's much less effective in-game.

I'd like to add, as a CWE player, that while we do indeed have some cheap HQs, the cheapest ones are pretty garbage and/or have no options/auras.
Warlocks and Spiritseers are cheap, but have no auras (that matter) and can only cast 1 power, of which the Warlock even has worthless Smite
Spiritseers are great for 65ppm, but they hardly have the same capabilities of a Captain or Archon. Their powers can certainly add a lot to a single unit, but it is far from guaranteed to go off.
Warlock Conclaves? Not Characters, and still more expensive than a single Character Warlock (because you have to take at least 2)

The only "cheap" HQs CWE have that are worth taking are Fareers, which got a points bump, and Autarchs, which have to rely on Index options to even compare to a SM Captian.
Both of these HQ are more expensive then they SM/DE counterparts.

If I were to play DW, I'd be glad to take a Watch Captian. He gives reroll everything, not just 1s. That's easily worth 2 SM Captains or 2 CWE Autarchs.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/03 15:01:21


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Just FYI, the Watch Captain is a reskinned SM Captain. What you're referring to is the Watch Master.
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

All hail the Watchmaster, the guy's a beast and probably my fave HQ unit. You can spec him as Mr Buff or as a vehicle hunter, both are marvellous.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 grouchoben wrote:
All hail the Watchmaster, the guy's a beast and probably my fave HQ unit. You can spec him as Mr Buff or as a vehicle hunter, both are marvellous.

A vehicle hunter only works if they can actually reach a darned vehicle.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yeah, the super cheap Warlock is only 55 points. Compared to the Lt at 60, CWE HQs sure are cheapos! Maybe they should move the Techmarine to the HQ slot (sarcasm, they already are).

Cheapo CWE HQs is just a meme. It gets some steam in that SM HQs tend to bling out their Captains, because Smashfether can do stuff. CWE do occasionally bling out an Autarch, but it's just a weaker Smashfether that dies easier.

CWE HQs aren't cheaper than SM options. DE HQs aren't. Harlies aren't. Corsairs <entry not found>. So what Eldar HQs are these super-cheap HQs, again?

Side note - until CA, SM had cheaper min troops. But post-CA min-Storm Guardians are cheaper by a few points.
   
 
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