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Which of these "Fixes" do you think would work best for making Transports something worthwhile:

#1 - Transports get a free 6" move at the start of the game. Drop Pods and similar units can arrive turn 1 despite Matched Play rules.
I think this alone might make Transports something people take. A points hike may be needed on the transports people are already taking (Wave Serpents, Venoms, etc.). This change would, effectively, give units in transports a free 9" move at the start of the game (6" transport move + 3" disembark), which is similar to the "advanced positions" stratagems that some armies receive. These ones cost points, rather than CP, but the effective is the same; you get to objective markers sooner, into better firing positions sooner, get to act after seeing the way your opponents are deployed, and get within charge distance sooner. I figure, if Rhinos and Devilfish transports are getting a free move at the start of the game, then let's finally say that Drop Pods, Tyrannocytes, and other similar "drop-pod" units can also come in turn 1, despite the Matched Play rules saying otherwise. Again, this gives there a reason to be spending premium points on the units being transported, rather than going with a similar unit that gets the deep strike benefit for free.

#2 - Units can disembark at the end of the transport's movement.
This would turn Transports into units that buff other unit's movement characteristic. This is similar to #1 for purposes of the first turn. Main thing here is future turns, or transports with really high movement values, ferrying close combat units. Having a unit of Khorne Berzerkers getting a 21" move at the start of the game (12" transport move + 3" disembark + 6" infantry move) would be pretty terrifying, and isn't anything compared to a Storm Raven bringing in the pain Turn 1. So, while similar, I think #1 is superior to this option.

#3 - Transports can "block" infantry as if the infantry were Characters.
This is a little out there, but what if you had to shoot at transports rather than Infantry if the transport was closer? This would majorly change the function of a transport from being one that protects passengers, to one that protects infantry near them. This would give Rhino Rush a whole new meaning, as Devastators, Dark Reapers, Pathfinders, etc. would all gain hugely from having a tough unit absorbing blows for them. Again, some units (Wave Serpents, Storm Raven, etc.) would need a points hike to accommodate the boost their extreme resilience and movement speed gives.

Why do transports get a free move at the start of the game? How would this work with units which have a transport cap but aren't actually transporting anything? Why would my Stormravens, Monoliths and Stormlords suddenly get an extra bit of movement?

I agree that you should be able to disembark at the end of movement, but I would add a clause that a unit that does so can't charge that turn, with the exception of some specialist vehicles such as Land Raiders, Spartans and Battlewagons which are designed for that.

The third option is a bit ridiculous, and sounds like you're just clawing for a way to make transports good. You've just said it yourself, you can block some of the best units in the game for no reason. Dark Reapers, Hellblasters and the like, suddenly they're almost invulnerable because you've got a transport hidden from LoS but closer, somehow, for some inane reason that makes it harder to target them.



To fix transports you'd have to look at them on a case by case basis, as one sweeping rule change isn't going to fix everything without either making a few units OP or crap. Some transports such as Drop Pods and Devilfish need points drops, some perhaps may need tweaks to movements, whereas some such as Land Raiders could use additional rules as mentioned previously.

The free move at the start of the game for transports would represent them ferrying new units to the field just in time for battle. But fluff it however it want, doesn't really matter. Yes, this would give Storm Ravens, Monoliths, and Stormlords a free 6" move, but a free move on these units isn't going to really change their effectiveness much. Really fast units don't benefit as much from a 6" move, and Monoliths are generally not a great unit, so the 6" extra move isn't going to suddenly make them OP. I think #1 is the safest choice as it's a blanket rule change that really wouldn't overly tip any scales.

#2, like you said, would require more finagling. The faster the transport, the more it benefits from this change. I personally hate the "no charge after disembark" bit, because like you said, you need to work in some exception to have certain units feel right, and then those are the only transports you end of seeing (as that ability far outweighs the other benefits).

#3, I was totally pulling at straws by this point. It was a weird idea, maybe fun to test out, but I can't imagine seriously taking it. Still, stranger things have happened!

That only helps the ones being used like battle tanks (like Razorbacks and Wave Serpents).

Clearly some transports are more popular than others and you need to see why people don't like them. I can tell you first hand, for example, based on the armies I play:
1. Rhinos lost fire points
2. Ghost Arks aren't considered open topped
3. Croissants can't drop two units at once

Maybe for #3, transports can provide Overwatch or some form of suppressive fire (+1 penalty to enemy Morale tests?) for a transported unit that within 6”.

I'd just allow units in transports to move, disembark and charge. In other words units get the chance of disembark at the beginning of the movement phase, psychic phase or shooting phase, that's their choice.

That's basically the only buff I'd really like on transports. Not on flyers though as they have a very high movement stats.

Disembark and charge I not something all transports should get. We had the old Assault Ramps rule for vehicles that this made sense on (land raiders).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with transports atm. They are fine like they are.


If you use your rhinos like they are meant to be used, you'll find them quite effective.



I will admit there are a few transports that aren't as useful now, but that's either due to overcosting or just the army in general. Necrons have transport woes, but there is a dynasty and a unit in their codex that gets around that and its actually just part of their theme.

Rhinos can take a hit, sure.

However, that's all they do. The Marines inside cannot fire from them or disembark after it moves (which limits both melee and rapid fire range capabilities).
With all those problems listed, are you shocked that Razorbacks get used as frickin Battletanks?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Disembark and charge I not something all transports should get. We had the old Assault Ramps rule for vehicles that this made sense on (land raiders).

Why not? Charging is possible after movement phase. Why units are allowed to fire after getting off a transport if their weapons are in range but can't assault as they would need to be way closer to the enemy? Getting in melee outside deep strike is not that easy to do.

In this edition shooting is also way more powerful than melee so buffing close combat should be something that improves the quality of gaming.

I think the main problem with transport is that you can't use their movement and get out on the same turn, I'd change the disembark rule to give you two options:

1: Disembark as normal before the transport moves and both the units inside and the transport can then move normally.
2: Disembark after a transport has moved (not advanced) Disembarking units may move no further in this movement phase.

This basically allows you to use the speed of your transport to get where you need to be and disembark. If this makes transporting close combat units too good then the ability to charge after doing option 2 could be removed.

I think many people are missing the fact that lots of transports don't see much use because they don't have good units to transports, not because of their inherent weaknesses.
I don't think rhinos are bad, just that the marines they're supposed to carry aren't worth much.
Starweavers are pretty meh, but Harlequin troupes are so fragile and expensive that you can't run them without one. And drive-by gunboats work okay.

So if you just flat-out buff transports, most of the time you're not solving any problem, you're just making the better transport function as standalone units (like razorbacks at the beginning of 8th, or wave serpents).
I think transports are only worth it when there are units that have a real incensive to take them. Khorne berserkers like their rhinos, tactical squads not so much.

That's a good point and I think its also worth pointing out how much better open topped transports are than ones that aren't. Having the ability to protect and move the unit insdie whilst still allowing them to contribute their firepower is very powerful. Removing firepoints from rhinos and the like was a bad move and contributes to them not being taken.

 WisdomLS wrote:
That's a good point and I think its also worth pointing out how much better open topped transports are than ones that aren't. Having the ability to protect and move the unit insdie whilst still allowing them to contribute their firepower is very powerful. Removing firepoints from rhinos and the like was a bad move and contributes to them not being taken.

Open topped transports aren't better by default. As said rhinos are excellent for close combat units that are strong in 10 man squads. If you want a transport for orks a T8 non open topped battlewagon in miles ahead two T6 open topped trukks (they are the same total cost) because it's more resilient and orks get some benefit from being in high numbers. Of course rhinos would be useless on a pure shooting force, so are open topped fragile transports on units that just want to get into melee safely. Think about drukhari, wyches desperately want a ride and to be 10 man strong but they don't get benefit from the open topped rule of the raider as they only fire crappy poisoned pistols, they'd definitely prefer a rhino even if generally speaking a raider is more performing than a rhino.

Yeah, I can't agree on the Fire Points. Fire Points turns Rhinos into more expensive Razorbacks, and many transports don't have Fire Points. I also don't think that Transports are entirely not taken due to not having good troops to transport. Infantry are a real game right now (Infantry Squads, Cultists, Firewarriors, Ork Boyz, Dark Eldar, etc.), so if they're a real game, they are not being transported for some reason. Of all of the ones I just listed Dark Eldar seem to actually use transports, and it's pretty easy to see why:

#1 - They fly, so they don't get locked in combat.
#2 - They seriously increase the infantry's movement.
#3 - They seriously increase the infantry's survivability.
#4 - They don't reduce the infantry's firepower.
#5 - The transport is nearly as effective as a solo weapon platform with a bonus transport ability.

That's a lot of points in their favour, but I think #5 is the primary purpose. I don't like that, but anything that makes other transports closer to the other 4 might be a good idea.

Not sure most of these are necessary; most transports in the game are actually used plenty because they're decently functional medium tanks.

The two that I don't see used at all are the Rhino and the Drop Pod, because there are no short-ranged units that need transports in the Space Marine Codex that outperform just taking gun Dreadnaughts, Devastators, or Hellblasters. The transports themselves need help dramatically less than their occupants.

At the end of last year I dabbled in trying to improve on how transports work, by making movement speed dictate when certain elements of an army arrived, thus making transports useful for getting your army to the front line quicker.

I like the idea that the units can elect to either get out before it moves and act normally or get out after it moves but not move any further. to make this less game-breaking (I think wave serpents are very fast, and elder have some nasty CC units) you could do a simple split movement profile for transports, where no-one can get out if they have moved over the first speed. That way you can make certain vehicles more effective at assault than others, whilst still retaining simple, blanket rules.

Example: Rhino would be M 6/10, trukks would be M8/12, landraiders would also have a smaller gap between the two speeds (don't know heir speed).

so rhino moving 6" and the guys inside disembarking 3" means that the marines gain 3" on their movement, which is a bit of a boost but still represents that it isn't an assault vehicle.

I would also like to see open topped allow you to charge out of the vehicle, with the vehicle taking the overwatch and the roll distance being from the vehicle itself. this could be an "assault vehicle" rule, which landraiders would have also.

In fact, this would make assault transports effective enough. Rhinos aren't meant to be assault carriers, they're for you to get to an objective quickly.

What if transports embark/disembark at the end of movement phase, instead of before moving the transport?

 skchsan wrote:
What if transports embark/disembark at the end of movement phase, instead of before moving the transport?

It's the simple fix. You can get out before it moves as it is now, or get out after but can't charge that turn (maybe can't move at all).

I'll just say that "Transports are dependent on who they can transport" is totally accurate in my experience. Rhinos are actually very useful for my Sisters of Battle where they falter for my Space Marines.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'll just say that "Transports are dependent on who they can transport" is totally accurate in my experience. Rhinos are actually very useful for my Sisters of Battle where they falter for my Space Marines.

By logic of that, sister's rhino should cost more than SM rhino because apparently if someone can potentially get more mileage out of something, it costs more point.

 skchsan wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'll just say that "Transports are dependent on who they can transport" is totally accurate in my experience. Rhinos are actually very useful for my Sisters of Battle where they falter for my Space Marines.

By logic of that, sister's rhino should cost more than SM rhino because apparently if someone can potentially get more mileage out of something, it costs more point.

It's the same logic that puts an ork power klaw at 13 points and a SM power fist at 9 points. Same exact weapon, way more useful on an army though. I do not agree with that logic, same weapons/units should have the same cost, the platforms have the different cost.

IIRC also plasma guns don't have the same cost for SM and AM.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
What if transports embark/disembark at the end of movement phase, instead of before moving the transport?

It's the simple fix. You can get out before it moves as it is now, or get out after but can't charge that turn (maybe can't move at all).

The simplest fix to be trialled without any drastic re-write of the rules would be to only allow a unit to embark or disembark after the vehicle moves - never before. directly flipping the rules will make the transports more beneficial to units who start the game in transports, and less effective for units who wish to embark during the game. As units seldom re-embark, this should make transports more effective, in general.

 WisdomLS wrote:
I think the main problem with transport is that you can't use their movement and get out on the same turn, I'd change the disembark rule to give you two options:

1: Disembark as normal before the transport moves and both the units inside and the transport can then move normally.
2: Disembark after a transport has moved (not advanced) Disembarking units may move no further in this movement phase.

This basically allows you to use the speed of your transport to get where you need to be and disembark. If this makes transporting close combat units too good then the ability to charge after doing option 2 could be removed.

I think this is the best solution I've seen, I'd combine it with not being able to disembark within 9" of an enemy unit. That way units get mobility without being guaranteed a first turn charge, the can still be used to assault but there's still some risk to it. Fluff explanation is at ranges closer than that the enemy are able to concentrate fire on units as they exit the vehicle. If retaining the 3" disembark move increase the no disembark radius to 12".
Biggest danger is units getting trapped aboard if left on board too long and the enemy horde are able to saturate board control, but you should have a turn or two to prevent that.

For me the easiest and cleanest solution would be to provide the option of advancing half the current move of the transport. Not rolling a dice.

If so, you can reliably get extra movement that has meaningful impact in the positioning of an army. So an intanct rhino advancing would move up to 18" if advance. If the speed is degraded to 8" and it would advance, the M value would be 12" (8" nomal +8"/2 of advancing).

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
For me the easiest and cleanest solution would be to provide the option of advancing half the current move of the transport. Not rolling a dice.

If so, you can reliably get extra movement that has meaningful impact in the positioning of an army. So an intanct rhino advancing would move up to 18" if advance. If the speed is degraded to 8" and it would advance, the M value would be 12" (8" nomal +8"/2 of advancing).

I think that this is a really good idea, basically having transports will give you a much more reliable movement than running.

can anyone think of any vehicles with assault weapons or the ability to fire after advancing which this would make OP? trukks full of burnas could be an issue, 18" move and 9" burna range... the FW bigtrakk with all skorchas would be a beast, with 14" + 7" movement every turn and no penalties to shoot...
This might have to include a "you absolutely cannot shoot with or out of this unit if you advance". or make it a "turbo-boost" rule which they can opt to use instead.

 some bloke wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
For me the easiest and cleanest solution would be to provide the option of advancing half the current move of the transport. Not rolling a dice.

If so, you can reliably get extra movement that has meaningful impact in the positioning of an army. So an intanct rhino advancing would move up to 18" if advance. If the speed is degraded to 8" and it would advance, the M value would be 12" (8" nomal +8"/2 of advancing).

I think that this is a really good idea, basically having transports will give you a much more reliable movement than running.

can anyone think of any vehicles with assault weapons or the ability to fire after advancing which this would make OP? trukks full of burnas could be an issue, 18" move and 9" burna range... the FW bigtrakk with all skorchas would be a beast, with 14" + 7" movement every turn and no penalties to shoot...
This might have to include a "you absolutely cannot shoot with or out of this unit if you advance". or make it a "turbo-boost" rule which they can opt to use instead.

Burnas are d3 shoots at 12points per model. They may go from garbage to usable, certainly not overpowered.