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I've never understood this obsession with constantly comparing the newest edition of the game to the past, and the vitriol that often comes with it. Don't get me wrong, I can see how it can be a fun exercise compare old and new, but I mean the constant ongoing obsession and rage has to be getting a bit old at this point, right? As I understand it, a new addition doesn't invalidate any old edition and you're free to keep playing the one you love, or am I missing something that says you can't? I know that new additions mean the old ones are no longer in print, but isn't that only an issue for newcomers whom, by definition wouldn't have any investment in the old editions anyway? Maybe it's the case that with each edition, most of your gaming group is moving on and leaving you behind, but doesn't that suggest that most people prefer the new edition meaning that the anomaly is you? I get why that would be disappointing and saddening, but I still don't understand the constant, ongoing anger. Isn't there some point at which you should find a way to either accept the new shape of things and keep playing with your friends or find something else you enjoy? I can't imagine that this constant frustration is actually a pleasant way to spend one's time. Does anyone genuinely feel that they can force things back to the way they were through sheer force grief and frustration?

tl;dr: This isn't about whether a new edition is better or worse - there's quite enough of that elsewhere on the forum - but rather, why do you find it so hard to let go?

side note: the tone of this question is genuine curiosity. I'm really not trying to antagonize anyone.

EDIT: Looking at the question now, I realize there's nothing specifically related to 40k here. This may be more suitable for Dakka discussions.

It's not about the game. It's about the attention they can gain for complaining about it. I strongly believe at this point it's a form of Munchhausen Syndrome.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's not about the game. It's about the attention they can gain for complaining about it. I strongly believe at this point it's a form of Munchhausen Syndrome.

maybe Baron Munchausen?

I'm still peeved about Squats, but I enjoy 8th as much as RT. New stuff is cool and I get feeling left out, but there are waaayyyyyy bigger things you should care about than a game. If not, maybe seek professional help?

Yeah, it's pick-me validation mostly.

That and the fact that pissing in the wind is easier than actually having something to say.

I also think it's just part of the culture of Dakka Dakka in particular.

I think for many people you guys are being rather pessimistic. I think a lot of people just want to see a game that they love the fluff for become better, maybe not all are good at it but game balance is a very fickle thing. The more ideas the better. There are some who generally hate the game but from my experience, those are few and far between.

There's a massive difference between constructive criticism and the posters the OP is referring to, who moan and whinge and complain ad nauseum but who never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, have anything substantive to offer as a solution.

They moan for the sake of moaning.

New editions basically do invalidate past editions. Everybody and their cousin swaps over to the big new thing and the old edition is basically left behind in the dust. The pool of potential games is much smaller as people who had the old books may pawn them off or just get rid of them as no longer necessary, and new players probably aren't picking up editions no longer being published. Furthermore, argumentum ad populum is a fallacy.It doesn't mean that you're the anomaly, it means you're one who doesn't succumb to peer pressure.

I also don't see how popular support is supposed to be a valid argument when it's popular support that funds the very things that people complain about endlessly. People need to vote with their wallets instead of just following along like consumerist peons. If the fanbase didn't just roll over and go with whatever GW hands it, we might have a better game.

Some people don't handle change very well. They get invested and like the edition they start in and when it changes they can't adapt. It's no longer the thing they loved.

There's also a fair number of trolls who just want to stir the pot.

I didn't understand the edition rage for games until I ran into 4E D&D. I still look upon that edition with great disdain. I've also had that same reaction away from games - a bit with new BSG, Stargate Universe, some resentment with the last Star Wars movie and of late, Star Trek Discovery (shiver).

There's an underlying fear in the change of editions that it will become something you don't want - now and forever more. As well as it often tainting fond memories of times gone past.

There are certainly trolls, but I think in a lot of cases it's people (vocally) voicing their dislike in the direction of a property and having no real avenue to swing it back in a direction they would much rather prefer.

Ill bite on this. For me its less about playing a game that I don't like but that I gave 8th a fair shake and found with repeated results that I do not find 8th edition to be fun to play. So basically I have stopped playing 8th and try to continue to play 7th. The problem is that the community moves on because that is what is current. It leaves me in a situation where I can either play a game that I don't really enjoy or try to get people to play 7th.

One of the extremely frustrating things is that I experience is reading people rave on about how 8th is the best thing ever and 7th was practically a war crime against humanity (obvious hyperbole). 7th (along with 4th through 6th) had its faults but at its core it was a game that had depth, complexity, and a good deal of tactics going on that make for a stimulating experience. That's what I loved about the game and what I want to experience but I do not get that same satisfaction from 8th edition. The majority of people in the community seem to enjoy 8th which is great for them but it leaves me in the dust holding thousands of dollars of plastic figures wondering why I can't seem to enjoy what others do (and why they don't seem to miss the parts of the game that I loved). Looking at the direction GW is taking the hobby with less customization, terrible story telling, dumbed down rules, gutting of the fluff, etc. It seems like everything is getting worse and yet a large portion of the community is singing the praises of "new GW" while I see a lot of the creativity of the hobby going out the window in favor of making the hobby more corporate/profit friendly. I still love Warhammer but I'm torn between a hobby I found solace in and a changing hobby that is moving in a direction away from what I originally fell in love with. I know people can like or dislike whatever they want but it is painful to feel like your one of the few people who can't seem to be happy about whats going on with the hobby.

As to constantly complaining, its mostly to try to engage in discussion and to give honest feedback and opinion on the matter so it isn't always an echo chamber of "8th is the best, primaris are the bee's knees, love that new GW, two thin coats baby". A lot of it too is that I feel 7th gets a horribly bad rap and is treated like the entire thing was burning poo. I honestly believe that it was a decent but at times flawed game ruined by sloppy (and probably marketing driven) balance decisions with zero effort to try and keep the train on the rails. Honestly if GW just tweeked/cleaned up the core rules a bit, redid all the codexe to gut the power creep, and attempted to keep at least the thought of balance in mind then a 7.5 would of been a huge improvement and not requiring throwing out the baby with the bath water. But again we got 8th and with that everything got gutted to bare bones level of mechanics with stratagems being the thin veneer of depth to the game. Honestly there is very little I can do to change GW or the direction that 8th is going but it would be nice to maybe change some people's perspective on 7th from the toxic landfill that was Riptide Wing, Eldar, Decurion, Free Rhino Grav spam Marine, Psychic Deathstar, Bark Bark Star, Trip Lance, etc to that of the core game of 7th that was a fun but flawed and ultimately ruined by GW's inability to care or at times even comprehend balance.

The easy answer to all of this is "just quit and find a different hobby" but honestly I still enjoy the hobby immensely when I can find opportunities to participate in what I enjoyed (7th edition and working on models for that gameplay experience). Also it is that massive investment I put into the hobby with thousands of dollars in models/paint and the hundreds of hours spent working on said models. Its hard to just shelve everything when you still have a burning passion for the hobby but that the hobby changed into something bland overnight because of 8th edition. I know for certain the amount of time spend working on 40k stuff, posting on dakka, and going to the FLGS has dramatically dropped off following the months after 8th launched. Warhammer is more than just 8th edition which is partially why I don't want to just leave it behind and I enjoy talking about the hobby but it feels like I have less to say about it except for my frustrations with the game and my longing for it to either dramatically improve (sales numbers and an echo chamber fan base won't force GW to make major changes) or revert back to previous editions which will never happen as a whole and only happen on a individual by individual basis. There is no good answer to any of this and that makes it all the more frustrating.

While I can understand Vankraken's point - I don't think he's addressing what the topic is really about. Every edition leaves honest people in the lurch, it's been that way forever. I started in 2nd...left in 3rd/4th because that game was nothing like that I enjoyed in 2nd. Came back (with an army built for 2nd edition) and tried 7th...still hated it. I play a form of 8th and enjoy it - but it's not 8th like most people play.

I understand the financial commitment to a game, and appreciate you can still play whatever edition you like. I think the thread is more about the jackholes on Dakka and other forums who are just screaming heads, desperate for attention - people who don't even play the game, and may not have in years, just generally getting their rocks off by whining and whinging and pretending to be relevant on an internet forum.

They're the same people who are those annoying folks at any work place who everyone avoids...just on the internet where people are more likely to accidentally read their ravings. We're not discussing normal people who are generally unhappy with the rules evolution of a game. That's perfectly normal and understandable. We're talking about idiots.

Thus, you won't get an honest answer, as we got above from Vankraken, from the majority of the people I'm talking about (and yes, just reading this, 99% of people on this forum could name the same half dozen or dozen people I'm thinking of - we're pretty much all in agreement on most of them). They don't have a point, they don't play the game, they're not looking for discussions...their hobby is bitching.

OP, why do you feel a need to complain about opinions that you don't like? Why don't you just move on to a forum that is more positive and stop trying to turn dakka into something that it isn't?

OP assumes all the whiney people actually play. Between BattleScribe, netlists and mathhammering you can generate plenty of nerdrage without having put a single model to table. If that’s not enough you can complain about price rises as well.

Peregrine wrote:OP, why do you feel a need to complain about opinions that you don't like? Why don't you just move on to a forum that is more positive and stop trying to turn dakka into something that it isn't?

Was I complaining? Sorry. I was really just trying to ask a few questions. Maybe my tone was a bit complainy? Also, I'm not sure there are any opinions I dislike so much as disagree with. I was just wondering about the repetition I seem to come accross.

In the past, I did try Bolter & Chainsword and Warseer, but I found Dakka was the best place for up to date news and also has by far the most depth (almost too much in fact) when it comes to rules questions. Also, I quite like a lot of the stuff on the Background forum (which often gets just as heated ).

Also, lots of great answers so far. Thanks guys!

Yeah apparently there are people who play games that don't enjoy. I've never seen one of them with my eyes but dakkadakka proves that they exist

I personally don't think 40K is a very good game. It's not a matter of editions, just that the rules aren't very well written, and the codex/unit imbalance means there's no tactical aspect unless you only take the best options.
But the setting is great, and to me GW's minis are the best out there. Since I enjoy modelling and painting a lot, I buy a lot of GW minis. And after I've spent months working on an army, I do want to put it on the table and play with it, because that's where a good part of the modelling/painting enjoyement comes from (seeing your army on the field).
That's why I enjoy the occasional game of 40K/AoS once in a while, in a friendly setting, eventhough I don't like the game that much.

I think there is and would be a number of reasons.

From my own point I would say.
-GW has done well to enforce they are the big and only game to play. We still have players, new as well who turn up expecting for 40k to be the only thing played. They buy into the game, get invested due to internet hype and then never even see what the local community is like. I want to at least understand enough for these players.



-I also think that 40k could be a good game, if GW would just put some time and thought into what the game should be like.
This includes narrative feel to the rules as well, something across the board GW fails at.
Rule of cool is an excuse for stupid than for anything that will make the game a far better experiance.

-the factions themselves are quite compelling thematically, and I would love to be invested again. But as above rule of cool often becomes an excuse to lazy writing and plot development. Leading serious 40k to often feel like a parody of itself.

One interesting thing I always find talking to local players, is that it’s almost generational. So many players left the game sitting around waiting for updates, long enough for everything to change. And when they finally get an update it’s not the game they want to play so much anymore.
It’s one thing to enjoy a bad game, but if updates don’t improve things i do wonder how that effects players.

Really, we should be glad that people who are unhappy enough to stop playing still have strong opinions and stay involved in the discussion. If everyone who isn't happy leaves then it's very easy to end up with an echo chamber, and that isn't good for anyone.

 Peregrine wrote:
Really, we should be glad that people who are unhappy enough to stop playing still have strong opinions and stay involved in the discussion. If everyone who isn't happy leaves then it's very easy to end up with an echo chamber, and that isn't good for anyone.

Agreed, echo chambers are bad. There should never be one way to play something, one outlook on what is right, one way to be happy.

However, I do think there's a difference between getting the opinions from people who still play but don't enjoy it as much (but for them to stay playing, there must be some kind of thing they do enjoy, be that lore, be that nostalgia, or simple time/money investment), and the opinions of people who self-admit "yeah, I'm done with GW, I'm not coming back/I've not played warhammer for years" and their only inputs are how bad it is in their opinion.

Of course, when I mean "play the game", I think listhammer and theoryhammer are perfectly valid ways to "play" the game, even if no models are involved. Of course, if all they do is complain about how terrible the game is, I'd always question simply why they stick around. And yes, I mean that in the same way the OP does, not antagonistic, but simply curiously asking as to a person's motives/feelings.

But yes, for the people who actually do play the game and dislike it, I think the typical response is a mix of nostalgia, hope for the future, and time/money investment, and having people within the current player base of the game making constructive criticism if they find something to critique is just as important as saying what we like about the game and making positive remarks on them.

@OP Misery likes company?

Not many games are ideal for everyone in a gaming group. Sometimes you have to go with the groups’ choice, even when you have issues with parts or all of the game played. It’s a maturity thing- you learn to give a little because the others in the group may have similar problems while playing a game more your taste.

“The rewards of Tolerance are Treachery and Betrayal”

Why do or did I play games I don't like?

First of all because it is the game played and the possibilities are either play a game with your friends you don't like or don't play at all
Some groups play more than one game, but if you have bad luck than all of them are not to your liking

in the past I traded a bad Warhammer Edition with 40k and vica versa or played the Skirmisher of the month and there was also Warmachine but nowadays things are different


Second reason is that I have a huge collection
For Warhammer not that big of a problem as I cannot use them in AoS anyway (up to a point) so I don't see myself forced into the game by having an army ready to go

For 40k, I have my Deamons, Thousand Sons and Wolves, several thousand points and plans for never finished projects and it took me a lot of time to actually shelf them as I really want them to be on the table (this is also a reason why I tried to be part of the Community to improve/change the game) and still from time to time I get the feeling that I should give the game another chance just because to get a reason to finish those themed armies (and go through a month of misery unti I shelf the stuff again)

A big part of it comes down to investment, both in terms of time and money. People will have large collections, often with sentimental or emotional value as well as physical value and don't want to see that investment go to waste, so they play what they feel is a mediocre (or even bad) game in order to get the most from that investment. There's also the social aspect of the hobby that can keep people engaged. Maybe you don't like the game so much any more, but you have a great group of friends that all play so you stick at it for that reason?

I think if you look at some of the problems around the AoS launch you see some of the elements that keep people playing some games even if they don't like those games as much as they used to. When AoS launched it was theoretically compatible with all your old WH models. In reality, the rules for those models were pretty clearly not prioritised by GW and everything pointed to all those old models becoming obsolete sooner rather than later, right down to the change in basing. That removed a lot of the factors I mentioned earlier to do with investment into the game - the models were not really useable and the background had changed massively so a lot of the physical and emotional investment players had in the game just didn't apply to AoS. I think that was a big factor in many people leaving. Compare that with 40k where even when you have a huge change in the game as happened with 8th, your models are still pretty much completely useable and the background and setting is moretty much exactly the same, so the inertia of previous investment keeps people playing.

1. From my own perspective I believe a lot of people who dislikes a new edition may feel stuck in as I would call it "hobby limbo". If you had the vision of an army on the field as a motivating factor to paint, convert and do all the hobby stuff with and you enjoyed the end result (ie gaming with the army you created). I can be disheartening if the end phase of your hobby efforts now suddenly feels pointless. The fact that "old editions still exists" is a moot point if there is no one to play against. The lesser of two evils could be then to play even if you dislike the current edition. And venting about it online is maybe a coping mechanism for some. Not a sign that they are anomalies or need professional help (really?)

2. I don't post much but read this site frequently, and the amount of hyperbole concerning the amount of negativity isn't as overwhelming as it was during the AoS release, but it is still prevalent.* Does it in any way harm you or your happiness that others are not happy about some changes or genuinely dislike decisions made by GW? I usually read that it is tiresome to read negative opinions, and have to wonder why that is? For me its not more or less tiresome to read a negative than a positive opinion. In the news and rumour section I have many times seen a post going "wow this is awesome, great release" or similar with no more content and not being questioned followed by "I think it is gak" and that latter post immediately getting questioned. This, if anything, is something I am curious about.

3. What really is annoying and tiresome in my opinion is two things. Firstly, the misrepresentation of an imagined antagonists opinion or stance on a matter in order to make easy points. And secondly, the snark. But hey, its the internet one could assume that I would be inured by now.

*During the cataclysmic days of the AoS realease I actually saw someone actually claiming that. AoS fans were "persecuted by the haters"

I'm sure there are people who complain about 40k's rules but never roll dice in anger. Not sure why, but whatever they enjoy, I suppose.

However, I think there's also people who want to play a game, and 40k is all they can get. That's a sad position to be in, but for some people, a bad game is better than no game. Ideally, I'd say try to talk someone else into trying a game you do like. I mean, if you've been playing against these people for a while now, then surely they're friends by now?

If it's not just you in your group that complains about the rules, then have you tried getting together to discuss the problems and come up with a solution (house rules, a different game, whatever)?

 Ginjitzu wrote:


tl;dr: This isn't about whether a new edition is better or worse - there's quite enough of that elsewhere on the forum - but rather, why do you find it so hard to let go?

Because you can only play with yourself only so many times. When something changes and you don't like it but almost everyone else does, how do you find an opponent? If you can't engage in the play side of the hobby that you've spent hundreds of hours and thousands of £/$ on you're faced with few options. Dislike it and try to engage with it or drop it.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Maybe it's the case that with each edition, most of your gaming group is moving on and leaving you behind, but doesn't that suggest that most people prefer the new edition meaning that the anomaly is you? I get why that would be disappointing and saddening, but I still don't understand the constant, ongoing anger. Isn't there some point at which you should find a way to either accept the new shape of things and keep playing with your friends or find something else you enjoy? I can't imagine that this constant frustration is actually a pleasant way to spend one's time. Does anyone genuinely feel that they can force things back to the way they were through sheer force grief and frustration?

tl;dr: This isn't about whether a new edition is better or worse - there's quite enough of that elsewhere on the forum - but rather, why do you find it so hard to let go?

side note: the tone of this question is genuine curiosity. I'm really not trying to antagonize anyone.

EDIT: Looking at the question now, I realize there's nothing specifically related to 40k here. This may be more suitable for Dakka discussions.

no one plays old editions here. Even WFB which was fairly popular, had to get a fan version of the game, because no one would play the no longer pre AoS edition.
the anwser to someone asking to play an old version of the game would always be a no. First of all, there is little chance the opponent has the rules or an optimised list for that edition. If your army is good and his army is worse, he won't want to play. You more or less would have to find someone who has an old army, and both his and your armies being fun to play in that edition. It seems to me, I maybe wrong though, that it would be hard to pull off.

First I mostly asked question about how to fix my army. Then I wonder why GW isn't fixing my army, specially as my knowladge about old editions is what I hear from my dad or the stories at the store. After the last CA I think I first was very angry, because GW pumped me up that a huge fix is coming that will GK and then failed to deliver. Now I don't know what to do. Can't sell the models, the army doesn't seem to ever be fixed. Most of my friends moved either to other games or have fun with armies they have, and I don't have many friends to begin with, so it is not like I can talk someone about the state of my army.

the last thing is that I still probably hope that GW will do some sort of GK only FAQ or WD rules change that won't make me feel as if I wasted all the money.

Ginjitzu wrote:
EDIT: Looking at the question now, I realize there's nothing specifically related to 40k here. This may be more suitable for Dakka discussions.

Done.

Karol wrote:no one plays old editions here. Even WFB which was fairly popular, had to get a fan version of the game, because no one would play the no longer pre AoS edition.
the anwser to someone asking to play an old version of the game would always be a no. First of all, there is little chance the opponent has the rules or an optimised list for that edition. If your army is good and his army is worse, he won't want to play. You more or less would have to find someone who has an old army, and both his and your armies being fun to play in that edition. It seems to me, I maybe wrong though, that it would be hard to pull off.

First I mostly asked question about how to fix my army. Then I wonder why GW isn't fixing my army, specially as my knowladge about old editions is what I hear from my dad or the stories at the store. After the last CA I think I first was very angry, because GW pumped me up that a huge fix is coming that will GK and then failed to deliver. Now I don't know what to do. Can't sell the models, the army doesn't seem to ever be fixed. Most of my friends moved either to other games or have fun with armies they have, and I don't have many friends to begin with, so it is not like I can talk someone about the state of my army.

the last thing is that I still probably hope that GW will do some sort of GK only FAQ or WD rules change that won't make me feel as if I wasted all the money.

A little while back I decided to get back into B5 ACTA and could not find a single player locally who had even heard of it. Instead I poped onto a tabletop emulator and manged to find games on there instead. I am still collecting and painting the models (managed to drag my brother into the game as well) and am writing up our online games in battle reports here.

There is also the monetary investment that you have to look at.

If a game attracts someone who then goes out and spends $500-$1000 on models, spends weeks assembling them and months painting them, and then an edition change drops and either makes their army irrelevant (squatting it) or changes how the game plays completely and turns it into a game that would never have interested the person in the first place, they will rightfully have an intense negative experience.

As others have said, the initial bitterness after edition changes in "the wrong direction" comes from huge financial, emotional and time investment to this game and is fully understandable - I have personally been in those shoes after 3rd ed castrated everything I loved about 2nd ed. What is not healthy or understandable at all is clinging to that feeling for the following decade and hiding ones personal inability to deal with it behind a facade of "fighting for better game for everyone or preventing echo chamber of affirmative circle jerk".

I think what the true answer to the OP question really boils down to is quite a simple truth about one huge asymmetry of this hobby that some people have a very hard time accepting: while this hobby may be hugely important to you and your personal happiness and feeling of accomplishment, you as an individual are totally irrelevant to this hobby health and shape as a whole. Moreover, "Ad populi" is the only true and objective measure there exist about this game - if more people play, enjoy and spend money on new edition, then new edition is objectively better commercial endavour than earlier one and there is no reason to change it how you like it if you think it is a dumpster fire. Only if opposite is true your "constructive criticism" may trully be constructive and only if it actually is a fully fledged and incorporable idea that people do accept as a good solution to a widely acknowledged problem. To give a bit of weight to this in context of dakka: Proposed Rules subforum was a much more important and trully constructive place during 7th, because a huge lot of people were actually playing by houserules or fandexes, so it was a platform of exchanging ideas people actually utilized in their games. It is no longer true in 8th (at least not to any similar degree), where a vast majority of people play by the book or by ITC. And empty complaining about anything or GW inability to deliver what you see fit is never constructive in the first place.

And to be clear - I don't like 8th, I don't play 8th, I don't preach 8th but at the same time I don't bitch at 8th or anyone who enjoys it, because I perfectly know, that only my personal tiny world revolves around me, not the entire worldwide hobby.