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So say a X ancient is within 6" of a lascannon devastator marine who dies in the enemy shooting phase and who is also within 3" of a sergeant and assuming he gets the 4+ (or 3+) to shoot before he is removed... can that lascannon marine get the +1 to hit for the signum and in turn fire twice using the cherub to in effect fire two lascannon shots in the enemy shooting phase hitting on a 2 assuming no enemy modifiers?

Likewise if that is the case could you do the same with a hellfire strat on a heavy bolter for:
fire once in your phase 2+ to hit d3 MW
remove as a casualty in enemy phase, use the strat again hit on 2+ d3 mw and in the same phase use the cherub, hit again on 2+ and another d3 MW

thinking of a an idea of 3 lascannons and 2hb in 2 units of 5 devis bunched up with an ancient close by?

The Signum only works in the shooting phase I believe, so no you wouldn't get it if they died.

The cherub is better used on a missle launcher or heavy bolter to do 2d3 mortal wounds usually.



If your hanging around an ancient and wanting to abuse death stuff, think about hellblasters.

They can overheat on overwatch for increased damage, and any that die from 1's can then shoot again on a 3+ with the relic banner at their normal BS. It's a really mean way to mess up some chargers.

the ancient's rule says 'as if it were your shooting phase'
and the signum says 'before this unit shoots in the shooting phase' it does not say 'your shooting phase'

don't wanna use helblasters, everyone uses them

 Latro_ wrote:
the ancient's rule says 'as if it were your shooting phase'
and the signum says 'before this unit shoots in the shooting phase' it does not say 'your shooting phase'

don't wanna use helblasters, everyone uses them

If that's your reasoning, buckle in for a multi-page unresolved debate on what "as if" means! Because this is not clearly resolvable.

Also be prepared to play against people who disagree.

 Latro_ wrote:
the ancient's rule says 'as if it were your shooting phase'
and the signum says 'before this unit shoots in the shooting phase' it does not say 'your shooting phase'

don't wanna use helblasters, everyone uses them

The ancient lets the dead guy shoot "as if it were your shooting phase". He doesn't say the signum/dev unit also gets to act "as if it were your shooting phase". Just the model shooting does.

well the reasoning is the signum rule alone supports it because it says 'before the unit shoots in the shooting phase phase'

its the shooting phase all be it the enemy's and its before the unit shoots all be it one model...

also pushing it further, in theory every casualty should be able to use the signum right?! ,one after the other should more than one model die in the same enemy shooting phase

except it isn't the unit shooting. Its the model that died.

Well then if that were the case you'd never be able to use the ancient for shooting ever?

'as if it were your shooting phase' the shooting phase specifically requires you to select a 'unit to shoot'

e.g. under choose a target 'having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit' if you have not selected a 'unit' to fire and it is not the unit firing but a 'model' then that model surely cannot target anything.

edit: i'm intentionally being 'that guy' to see if its legal

 Latro_ wrote:
Well then if that were the case you'd never be able to use the ancient for shooting ever?

'as if it were your shooting phase' the shooting phase specifically requires you to select a 'unit to shoot'

edit: i'm intentionally being 'that guy' to see if its legal

And the model has a rule telling it that it only one model is allowed to shoot, not the whole unit.

You do not select a 'unit to shoot' when using the Ancient's rule.

yes but in order to target an enemy unit you have to select 'a unit' to fire...

if you say well the model fires as if its the shooting phase... what part? if you maintain its not the unit being selected to fire and it isnt the unit that is firing then there isnt a rule for 'a model' to target anything... so you cant target anything

 Latro_ wrote:
yes but in order to target an enemy unit you have to select 'a unit' to fire...

if you say well the model fires as if its the shooting phase... what part? if you maintain its not the unit being selected to fire and it isnt the unit that is firing then there isnt a rule for 'a model' to target anything... so you cant target anything

the part where you pick a target unit to shoot, roll to hit, and roll the wound. That's it. That's the only part you use.

so if a captain was near by and he rolled a 1, there is no re-roll because the 'unit' isnt firing...

Considering every unit within 6" gets the reroll 1's during all phases of the games and the model is part of a unit in the buff range then you would be able to reroll the 1's.


Theres litterally no point in argueing about this further. We told you how it works.

 Latro_ wrote:
yes but in order to target an enemy unit you have to select 'a unit' to fire...

if you say well the model fires as if its the shooting phase... what part? if you maintain its not the unit being selected to fire and it isnt the unit that is firing then there isnt a rule for 'a model' to target anything... so you cant target anything

Except the Ancient allows a model to fire... no unit is involved.

Guys if played 40k for 23 years I'm not arguing to be a douche heh. I know how the mechanics work I'm just exploring every avenue with this.

So the argument is they cannot use a signum because it says "when the unit shoots" as it's a model shooting and you cherry pick rules from the shooting phase. but you do get the rites of battle 're roll for that model activating from an ancient.. which says units can make a reroll. so we're saying hes part of the unit but even if the unit isn't firing he'd get that reroll. To be clear were talking rites of battle on a model that shoots after being destroyed and an ancient let's them shoot again.

So he's part of a unit in one rule which cements him as part of the unit for that reroll of 1 but in regards to the signum the unit isn't regarded to be firing lall be it one model and the shooting rules you are told to use explicitly have a process of selecting a unit to fire are cherry picked.

So if the rites of battle allow UNITS to reroll 1s to hit and my devistator marine fires via an ancient flipping the view here and he rolls a 1. Which unit is shooting in the shooting phase to allow that marine the reroll?

The unit isn't shooting, the model is. The model is part of the unit and the unit is allowed to reroll 1's in every phase.

The signum only gets to be used if the entire unit is selected to shoot in the shooting phase thus not applicable here.

It’s Groundhog Day!

haha nah i get it, you guys have convinced me purely on the fact even if its maybe possible its to shady to use in games so i wont.

So on another point then, say said lascannon marine is killed inclose combat and there are still models within 1" of him he can fire his lascannon at another unit on the board using the ancients ability so lon as he ahs los and they are not in within 1"

No, because Core Rules day you can’t.

Why not? as we have established we are not picking a unit to fire we are ignoring that part of the shooting rules. You can't pick a unit to fire that is within 1" of an enemy model. If he can't do this then we have to admit we are picking a unit to fire and surely admit the unit is firing XD

He’s given permission to fire at a time he normally couldn’t, not to ignore all other conditions for shooting. Colloquial wording strikes again.

He actually is allowed to fire his Bolt Pistol at the models he is engaged with. Or make a close combat attack. He isn't allowed to shoot anything else though, as he wasn't given specific permission to do so.


He (the model) is firing "as if it were the shooting phase". This means he cannot fire any ranged weapons (other than his pistol) if he is within 1" of an enemy model.



Noise marines get a specific ability that allows them to shoot their guns at stuff even if they are within 1" of something when they die, so they can.

 Latro_ wrote:
Why not? as we have established we are not picking a unit to fire we are ignoring that part of the shooting rules. You can't pick a unit to fire that is within 1" of an enemy model. If he can't do this then we have to admit we are picking a unit to fire and surely admit the unit is firing XD

I'm more on your side of this debate, but it's been done a billion times on this board and exhaustively too. I think most everyone is just argued out on the topic at this point.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
except it isn't the unit shooting. Its the model that died.

You shoot as if it were the shooting phase, so you follow all the rules for the shooting phase. Step one is selecting a unit. It doesn't matter if one model can fire or all of them you still select the unit as per the shooting phase rules.

Cherub you can 100% use as it says before the unit shoots, so you could even use that on overwatch if you wanted.

Dadavester wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
except it isn't the unit shooting. Its the model that died.

You shoot as if it were the shooting phase, so you follow all the rules for the shooting phase. Step one is selecting a unit. It doesn't matter if one model can fire or all of them you still select the unit as per the shooting phase rules.

Cherub you can 100% use as it says before the unit shoots, so you could even use that on overwatch if you wanted.

No. You are not doing a separate shooting phase. You simply shoot with that one model 'as if it were the shooting phase'. You're not shooting with the entire unit, you're not even shooting with ANY unit. Therefore none of the Signum shenanigans work.
If the Cherub also says "before the unit shoots", which I highly(!) doubt by the way, it will also not work.
Why you would want to use the Cherub during Overwatch is kind of a mystery to me, but the Signum doesn't do anything during Overwatch (since you will still only hit on 6s) - just in case you're confusing the two here.

edit:

Once per game, after a model in this unit has fired, an Armorium Cherub can reload that model's weapons.

So yes, you can use a Cherub on the Ancient proc, since it says "after a model in this unit has fired", and the model is still part of the unit.

Dadavester wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
except it isn't the unit shooting. Its the model that died.

You shoot as if it were the shooting phase,

so you follow all the rules for the shooting phase. Step one is selecting a unit. It doesn't matter if one model can fire or all of them you still select the unit as per the shooting phase rules.

Cherub you can 100% use as it says before the unit shoots, so you could even use that on overwatch if you wanted.

The unit is not shooting so you can not use the cherub.

The model shoots as if it were the shooting phase. You do not select the unit to shoot, the ancients rules allow a single model to fire.

Guys, do yourself a favor and actually read the rules you're trying to discuss. It really helps with understanding said rules.

I can understand the Signum one as it is not the unit shooting, fair enough.

Cherub you can use, and in overwatch. The only time you would do it in overwatch is if they got charged before you could use it. Very niche use, and would require poor deployment for it to be an issue.

To update this thread for future posters the GW have pushed out an update so this is no allowed