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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Q: Can an Emperor’s Fist unit that Advanced use the
Unyielding Advance Stratagem to shoot its turret weapon twice?
A: Yes.

Leman Russ turret weapons are all Heavy, meaning they cannot ordinarily be fired if the model advanced at all. initially, I assumed this stratagem did not interact with Advancing, because of this caveat (0*2 is still 0, after all).

My question is, does this change the function of the stratagem from

"A leman russ model ignores the movement restriction of shooting twice, all other shooting restrictions still apply"

to

"A leman russ model ignores ALL restrictions on shooting their turret weapon AND it shoots twice"

or is it

"A leman russ model ignores JUST SPECIFICALLY the restriction on advancing, shoots twice, all other restrictions (Smoke Launchers, Being in close combat, falling back) still apply"

I think, strict RAW-wise, the third scenario exists here: Previous RAW was that a leman russ that Advanced, Fell back, used smoke launchers, or was in close combat could use the stratagem, but still would not be able to fire (because other restrictions prevented it from doing so), and now, GW has changed the rule with the FAQ to allow for advancing, but not anything else.

Also, as a follow up, I am assuming because the turret weapons are not Assault weapons, they would not suffer a -1 to hit (because the new stratagem allows them to shoot a Heavy weapon, and does not make them treat the Heavy weapon as Assault)

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






It only ignores the restriction on advancing, all other restrictions still apply. At least that would be the "common sense" reading of it. Due to how English works it's now unclear. Good work GW. /s

Ghaz makes a fair point.

However, considering if you're advancing you want to move full speed anyway, I think this is actually intentional to allow you to fire twice after advancing and moving full speed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/14 15:46:34


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

These are also game rules (the laws of the game in question) which are meant to be read a little more strictly than everyday English:

Q: Can an Emperor’s Fist unit that Advanced use the Unyielding Advance Stratagem to shoot its turret weapon twice?

A: Yes.

The question is specific to using the 'Unyielding Advance' stratagem after advancing (i.e., no matter how far it moved).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Ghaz wrote:
These are also game rules (the laws of the game in question) which are meant to be read a little more strictly than everyday English:

Q: Can an Emperor’s Fist unit that Advanced use the Unyielding Advance Stratagem to shoot its turret weapon twice?

A: Yes.

The question is specific to using the 'Unyielding Advance' stratagem after advancing (i.e., no matter how far it moved).


Sure, but let's take a look at the wording of these rules.

Advance

"When you pick a unit to move in the movement phase, you may declare that it will Advance....A unit that Advances can't Shoot or Charge later that turn."

Fall Back

"if you choose to fall back, the unit must end its move over 1" from enemy models....A unit that falls back also can't shoot that turn unless it can FLY."

Both of these are special actions declared during the movement phase that ordinarily prevent shooting later that turn. I can choose to Advance and still move the leman russ less than half its movement characteristic; ordinarily I would still be prevented from firing at all because of the wording above.

I would argue that the FAQ answer above appears to change the rule's meaning from

"No matter how far it moved" (implying that it only removes the "half its movement characteristic or less" restriction) to "No matter what it did in the movement phase."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No, because again the FAQ doesn't say anything about Falling Back, just Advancing (i.e., 'no matter how far it moved' now includes advancing and not just the normal move).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Ghaz wrote:
No, because again the FAQ doesn't say anything about Falling Back, just Advancing (i.e., 'no matter how far it moved' now includes advancing and not just the normal move).


I guess the question here is:

Does a FAQ question and answeer MODIFY a rule, or CLARIFY how the rule is meant to be played?

Because, RAW, just looking at the way Advance is worded and the way the stratagem is worded, those rules don't seem to interact at all and I don't seem to be able to advance and fire at all.

A model that advances can't shoot later that turn. Done. Simple. I can choose to advance and move 1", and I still can't shoot, and Grinding Advance doesn't even come into the equation because 2*0 = 0.

Now we have a FAQ ruling that says "nope, you can advance and shoot twice"

that means this stratagem must, as it's worded right now, ignore the restriction on shooting under the Advance section of the rules.

So why does it not ignore the identical restriction on shooting under Fall Back?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






It doesn't matter if it modified or clarified, GW decree by FAQ and that is final. It only applies to that specific rule, it doesn't apply to anything else.

You can't advance when falling back anyway, so it's not like you can do that then try and claim you can fire via FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/14 16:05:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Because the FAQ ruling does not deal with falling back at all, only with advancing.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 BaconCatBug wrote:
It doesn't matter if it modified or clarified, GW decree by FAQ and that is final. It only applies to that specific rule, it doesn't apply to anything else.

You can't advance when falling back anyway, so it's not like you can do that then try and claim you can fire via FAQ.


That's about what I was leaning towards. The FAQ modifies the rule and adds a special circumstance where you ignore the Advance and Shoot restriction with just that one weapon, and it gets to fire twice (at no penalty because it's not an assault weapon).

And there's no rhyme or reason for it not interacting with Fall Back, Smoke Launchers etc except that a lot of game would break if you dug into the "implications" of every FAQ ruling instead of just going by what they strictly allow.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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